Las Vegas Temple closed tonight after a man shot himself in the temple atrium. I have no other details. This was reported to me by two different youth group leaders who had gone to do baptisms with their youth.

Ive read this and it's so sad. However, I ended up in an argument over tithing on the message board. Tried leaving the conversation on a good note but couldn't leave the message for some reason. Anyways, it was my first online debate but I feel bad leaving it on such a sensitive subject board as a suicide.

Suicidal closeted exmo? I hope not, but would not be surprised..

Didn't a similar incident occur a little while ago? I don't recall if it was on the lawn of a church building or a temple, but from what I remember, it was suspected that a man was found dead there, suspected of killing himself.
Does anyone else remember, or am I just making things up?
I'd hope this doesn't become a trend..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 01:28AM by msp.

msp Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't a similar incident occur a little while
> ago?

Yes. A fellow was found dead on the grounds of the Stake Centre next to the Toronto Temple a few weeks ago. I posted a link to one of the articles and others posted more links to it.

Yes, this sadly happens frequently - someone commits suicide on chapel or temple grounds.

I wish we had a way of tracking this - it gets covered up by TSCC for obvious reasons. How many times do you hear of a Catholic kid killing themselves on church or cathedral grounds? Bugger all if ever. Or any other denomination that has a disproportionate number of its members' kids killing themselves in a church context.

But LDS kids are killing themselves in distinctly LDS contexts. The affirmation site has some details for gay LDS suicides, but I suspect the problem is broader than that.

ETA: we need to keep data on this. While I have been an RFMer, there have been a number of reports of suicides like this - returned missionaries killing themselves in front of the chapel or temple, kids who can't stop masturbating hanging themselves, a kid shooting himself over the sacrament table and the SP ordering the mess cleaned up before sacrament the following Sunday.

We just had a poster post a despairing message before this was reported. RFM is here for despairing Mormons, but I think there is a serious problem with LDS suicide that is not getting out somehow. This is something we need to be aware of as a community. Something we need to consider with every response/post we make where someone is is pain and looking for help.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 02:00AM by spanner.

"a kid shooting himself over the sacrament table and the SP ordering the mess cleaned up before sacrament the following Sunday."

I sent my former BP (Houston North Stake) where this occurred information about this. He didn't confirm it nor deny it. As I recall, all I received was a reply stating he was sorry to hear about it. I am sure he knew more about it than he was willing to admit.

What I recall from the incident was that a young man returned from his mission, and gained access to the building. (I am not sure if this is the same young man that smashed through the church doors in a pickup or not). When he reached the sacrament table, he shot himself. This was on a Thursday.

The SP ordered the facilities rep. (stake calling.) to clean up the mess so church could be held on Sunday. I was not there, but it had to take him hours to clean it up. The mental visual of this just makes me sick to my stomach.

Church was held three days later with deacons blessing the sacrament from the same sacrament table where the young man had shot himself.

No time to grieve over the situation. No one even knew except for those immediately involved in it.

I would like to know how the LDS church was able to conceal the situation so quickly. Wouldn't the police need the area sealed off for at least a short period to investigate it?

This happened in front of a chapel in Los Altos, California, a few years ago. The young man who committed suicide was gay--as I remember the details. Very sad.

This was probably my former ward. I never attended, but my son did a few times. He said if you weren't an RM don't bother--you didn't count.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 01:57AM by Phantom Shadow.

Stuart Matis, February 25, 2000. That was the first time the LDS church pushed an anti-gay proposition in California.

Stuart was from a strong Mormon family. He knew he was gay long before he reached puberty. He thought faith and church service would "fix" him. He didn't tell his secret to his family until he was in his early 30s. That was just about when he went to the front steps of the Los Altos stake center and killed himself. I never met Stuart but I knew some of his relatives and some of his friends, and I remember clearly hearing of his death.

Whenever I hear Mormons say "but the church does so much good," I think of Stuart Matis and his loving, warm, strong family.

Stuart was in my ward at BYU. He lived a few apartments down from me. We didn't have the same group of friends but I remember he always seemed together and on top of everything. He was EQP of our ward and was always so happy and cheerful. He was a good leader. I remember feeling a little jealous of him because he was such a great dresser ands seemed to have everything together.

I had no idea the pain he was in. I wish I had known him better.

I knew Stuart at the Y as well. Perhaps our paths crossed back then. I was gay and closeted at the time and was certain that Stuart was in the same situation. It was just something that you didn't dare talk about. Such a tragic thing... and sadly he's not the only person I knew that ended up taking his life over being gay and mormon.

I was in the same stake as Stuart. His father was in the stake presidency at the time, but wasn't when Stuart killed himself. He was the age of one of my children. They were acquaintences, not friends. The morning Stuart killed himself, there was a meeting planned at that building between Jeffrey R. Holland and the missionaries. Missionaries who went to the building in the morning to set up for the meeting found Stuart's body.

After that the Matises moved to Utah, where they have attempted to make the church a safer place for gay people. Their story is told in a book which I have read, but I don't remember the name of it right now. I think they have had next to zero success in changing the church. Since Prop 8 a few things have changed, but not much. Inviting gay people to come back to the same, homophobic church that they have been drummed out of isn't useful.

I attended Stuart's funeral. By the time of his suicide, they had realigned stake boundaries, shrinking 3 stakes into two, and I think the Matises were in a different stake than the one where Stuart killed himself. The building where the they held the funeral was packed and the press was there. It was during the Prop 22 debacle, which was California's first anti-gay-marriage law, before Prop 8.

At the funeral his parents spoke openly about Stuart's despair over his homosexuality. They expressed hope for a church where there would be "no more Stuarts," meaning no more Mormons who would feel that their only road to peace was suicide. I don't think Stuart's parent ever really "got it" about how devastating the Mormon church is to gay people, but they tried. And from their limited and blinded perspective, they have tried to do what they could to help gay Mormons.

I think some of Stuart's siblings did get it and I would not be surprised if at least one of them has left the church. His brother wrote a letter to the editor of the Daily Universe that was very critical of homophobia, and I think I recall a public statement he made to the press at the time of Stuart's death.

Some of my kids were the ages of some of the Matis kids, but they were never more than acquaintences. I haven't had any contact with them in more than 10 years, since the funeral, really.

I am crying.

This. This is why I absolutely refuse to raise my sons in the destructive cult that is Mormonism.

Wake up Mormons. Your beliefs destroy people. Literally.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 02:36AM by Queen of Denial.

We'll hope he's not another shamed and guilted gay person. We'll hope he was more like me. I have long said that if I had to do another temple endowment session, I'd kill myself.

It was only a matter of time.

To my knowledge this is the first time at a temple. (Not positive about the young guy at Toronto temple)

This makes me so angry. The Mormon church is responsible for so much pain and suffering.

"God never gives you more than you can handle." Ask this guy who was in so much pain he killed himself.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 07:08AM by Levi.

I would never give lying bastards the pleasure of killing myself. I'll see (legitimate) revenge one way or another. I heard rumors about ME being suicidal, so it's a really fucked up thing to hear when I know I was NOT suicidal!
I feel bad for those poor people who do take their own lives, but I'd much rather hear a story about how they told the Mormons to go fuck themselves.

I don't have the references but I remember there have been one or two suicides on the Provo temple grounds in past years.
Maybe someone can vouch for my memory..

You remember correctly Bamboozled. Someone did commit suicide on the grounds of the Provo temple sometime in the last several years. I forget the year. I was the person who read about it in the local Utah County paper and posted information about it on this board.
There were posters on this board who thought the story was fictional and demanded evidence. I posted the Daily Herald (Utah County newspaper) information online. And, another poster verified what I had seen in the paper by going to the local library to view the copy for themselves.

I think it happens more often than is stated. The LDS like to shove this information under the rug.

I hope we find out WHY. I hope we find out he was excluded from family things, he was gay or he was disliked by his friends since he left the church...even if he was ex'd. Knowing the reason for his pain and putting it out there in the open where all can read about it is important so people know what a destructive cult this is. I live in Vegas....I hope to learn more. And since it was done at the site of a Mormon Temple it is IN THEIR FACE. Sad but it was his way.

Am I right in thinking that this was INSIDE the temple, rather than just on temple grounds?

**deleted**



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 10:54AM by Bite Me.

**double post**



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 09:15AM by Bite Me.

So, being so literal, which did he do? Cut his throat or disembowel himself?

The LV temple has an inner courtyard that is completely secluded and can only be reached from inside the lobby.

So sad.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/coroner-identifies-man-who-killed-self-las-vegas-mormon-temple

You may not recognize the name, but I believe that his father is Federal Judge Jay Bybee. Still not ring a bell, he (the father) is the former bishop behind waterboarding.

http://content.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1894309,00.html

My googling lead me to similar conclusions about who the deceased's father is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Bybee

I didn't remember the torture/waterboarding thing though... until you mentioned it.

For what it's worth, it's unverified third-hand information.

It is no longer unverified. It is in the Des News, the SLTrib, KSL and the Las Vegas newspaper, to name a few.

Jay Bybee...Only a mind twisted by the mental gymnastics required of a life long TBM could have come up with that memo...

In a prior life, that memo was an issue I had to deal with in my professional world. I wasn't stunned to hear that a Mormon boy came up with it.

Yes, his father is Jay Bybee, a good friend of mine. I just saw Jay last week. Scott has struggled with bipolar and suicical impulses and attempts for many years, and lived at home. My heart goes out to Scott, to his father, mother and siblings.

anonforthis12 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes, his father is Jay Bybee, a good friend of
> mine. I just saw Jay last week. Scott has
> struggled with bipolar and suicical impulses and
> attempts for many years, and lived at home. My
> heart goes out to Scott, to his father, mother and
> siblings.


Thanks for posting this update. Sympathies to the Bybee family. I am from Vegas and this one really hits close to home.

But another question is, how is this even possible? Suicide is supposed to be one of those dark temptations, the devil is feeding into us, but as soon as you step on the temple ground, the temptation should go away, and you should be hit by the power of the spirit, making everything okay.

Of course we know the above is BS, and TBMs may claim the magic only works inside, because the Holy Casper isn't powerful enough to push his signal through drywall, even though Verizon can from miles away.

Still tragic. My heart goes out to the victim and his family. If LDS social services actually tried to help people, rather than encouraging them to continue placing themselves in stressful situations, or if Bishops were actually trained counselors who could help with depression, then maybe things like this wouldn't happen.

I wish our board could have helped this young man in some way, and in doing so, his family as well. He seems to have been making a statement by selecting the Temple grounds.

if he was severely bipolar there isn't much anyone could do. If you have never experienced or witnessed the anguish and torment some of these poor folks endure you can't understand. I doubt his suicide had much to do with religion. If anything it delayed his suicide.

I have a family member who is in a similar boat. Everyone tries to help, and prevent the multiple suicide attempts, but we all know, its just a matter of time. Up until now the only thing that has kept the person from suicide had been fear of god. My family member has lost that fear and is ready to challenge god at the pearly gates if there is any BS about the sin of suicide. My family member is ready to tell god what a load of crap it is to curse someone with bipolar and then tell them to "endure to the end."

Rueben, I’m so sorry you’re in the anticipatory grieving mode. My bipolar daughter died by suicide in 2006. People asked me if I had any idea this was coming. I told them I had to push those thoughts out in order to survive. I agree that religion can deter some from taking their lives. I just have so much trouble giving any kudos to religion since I believe it causes so much pain for almost everyone including those who finally quit believing. It’s like the slave that is conditioned to “love” his evil master. I believe my daughter’s budding atheism removed a barrier to carrying out her plans. I also believe that she knew the only way for relief was to end her life.

Mormon gay suicides are preventable. That's why I consider them much more tragic in many ways than my daughter who died after a long illness.

So his father is the water boarding Jay Bybee?

Great googly moogly.

Doesn't that make you wonder what the kid's home life was really like?
You just never know what goes on behind people's front doors.

belief system.

No matter how you cut it, this young man was making a statement. How one percieves that statement or trys to rationalize or justify or blame or not accept blame is strictly up to the person.

I, for one, feel compassion for what the young man must have been going through. That he did his deed in the temple shows that the religion views he had were of significance to his act. Call him bi-polar, crazy, insensitive, or having vengence seems rather ludicrist at this point.

He made a statement as loud and clear as he possibly knew how. If it helps people to blame him (for what ever reason), doesn't change the fact that religion played a major roll in his decision. JMHO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 03:05PM by dejavue.

The problem with the mormon parents' statement is that you don't know if it's true.

Did he suffer from depression?

Or was he tortured by his mormon parents who insisted he live according to their dogma?

. . . has secretly included people symbolically slitting their own throats, disemboweling their own guts and ripping out their own hearts--all on Mormon temple property, within the Mormon Temple itself?

Now a guy kills himself for real on Mormon temple grounds. Why should the Mormon Church be surprised, given its bloody, blood-atoning, violent religious history, doctrine and practice?
_____


Here are the details:

"Sign and Penalties

"Before April of 1990, [Mormon temple] patrons made certain oaths along with signs showing the "penalty" for divulging the aforementioned tokens. For instance, after the patron was given the 'First Token of the Aaronic Priesthood,' he was instructed to place his right 'thumb under the left ear, the palm of the hand down, and by drawing the thumb quickly across the throat to the right ear, and dropping the hand to the side.' A promise was then made that the person would suffer his "life to be taken" rather than reveal the token. In the earlier days, members had to be more specific with their oaths. They had to promise that, if the secret was ever revealed, their throats would be 'cut from ear to ear' and their 'tongues torn out by their roots' ('Temple Mormonism,' p.18).

"[Mormon Church] [m]embers were also compelled to make another oath accompanied by a sign representing the penalty for divulging the Second Token of the Aaronic Priesthood. By promising that they would rather die than divulge the secret, they would draw their right hands (in cupping shape) across their chests. Again, this oath has been toned down. Earlier Mormons agreed to 'have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field' ('Temple Mormonism,' p.20).

A third oath was given when the patron received the First Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. This penalty was represented by drawing the right thumb (palm downward) quickly across the stomach area. Earlier oaths made members promise that their "bodies be cut asunder in the midst of all and the bowels gush out" should they divulge the secret given them ('Temple Mormonism,' p. 20). The penalties were completely removed in 1990 although patrons still vow not to discuss the ceremony.

"By making these various promises or oaths, the Mormon is actually violating his own scripture found in the Book of Mormon. Throughout the Book of Mormon, secret oaths are considered to be an abomination (Alma 37:27, Helaman 6:22-26, 4 Nephi 42, Ether 8:15-16, 3 Nephi 12:34-36)."

("The LDS Temple Ceremony," by Bill McKeever. at: http://www.mrm.org/temple-ceremony)


In the article, "Complete List of Latest Ceremony and Ordinance Changes: Comparing theMormon Temple Endowment Ceremony
Past and Present," a complete transcript is provided of "the pre-1990 . . . temple endowment ordinance with the April 1990 changes marked to indicate where differences occur between versions. Significant changes include the elimination of }[s]everal temple covenants which require temple patrons to have their throats slit, their hearts ripped out, or their bellies torn open for revealing the secrets of the temple rite."

("Complete List of Latest Ceremony and Ordinance Changes" . . . [T]he pre-1990 transcript of the temple endowment ordinance with the April 1990 changes marked to indicate where differences occur between versions," at: http://www.i4m.com/think/temples/temple_ceremony.htm)

Here are photos of Mormon temple patrons performing these death oaths inside their temples, as provided on Richard Packham's website, under the heading, "M0rmon temples and Temple Rituals," at: http://home.teleport.com/~packham/temples.htm_


Here are re-enactments of those death oaths, tokens, signs and penalties, as enacted by Mormons withing their own temples:

("Mormon Masonic Temple Rituals (pre-1990)," at; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKG5kMnZZcM; actual hidden-camera filming of actual Mormon Church temple rituals with its death signs and tokens can be found on the internet but are not posted here)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 11/20/2013 04:35PM by steve benson.