I reported a week or so ago on how two website domain names, http://www.mountainmeadowsmassacre.com and http://www.mountainmeadowsmassacre.org had been "appropriated" by Mormon apologists and used to further the LDS church's disinformation campaign about what really occurred in Southern Utah on September 11, 1857. Another poster identified FAIR and Allen Wyatt as the proprietors of those sites. Wyatt previously attempted similar shenanigans with the Tanners' Utah Lighthouse Ministry organization, but a Utah court declined to order compensation for any damages UTLM might've occurred as a result of Wyatt's cybersquatting.

Now have a gander at the "Mountain Meadows Association" website. This association is an organization of descendants of that horrific event and includes others, many of them Mormons whose ancestors were involved in the atrocity. Their stated goal is to "remember the victims killed," although there doesn't appear to be much focus on the particulars of their deaths.

I'm also left a bit dumbfounded, as well, at the omission of the word "Massacre" from the Association's name...

http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/

In order to glean some understanding of what happened, one has to click on the link "Mtn. Meadows Massacre" in the left hand column...

http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/NewPlaques/plaques.htm#THE%20MOUNTAIN%20MEADOWS%20MASSACRE

This link takes one to a page on titled "1999 Plaques," and one is immediately informed that the LDS Church maintains the grave site memorial "out of respect for those who died and were buried here." One has to scroll down half a dozen paragraphs to find the following:

> THE MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE

>Led by Captains John T. Baker and Alexander Fancher, a California-bound wagon train from Arkansas camped in this valley in the late summer of 1857 during the time of the so-called Utah War. In the early morning hours of September 7th, a party of local Mormon settlers and Indians attacked and laid siege to the encampment. For reasons not fully understood, a contingent of territorial militia joined the attackers. This Iron County Militia consisted of local Latter-day Saints (Mormons) acting on orders from their local religious leaders and military commanders headquartered thirty-five miles to the northeast in Cedar City. Complex animosities and political issues intertwined with deep religious beliefs motivated the Mormons, but the exact causes and circumstances fostering the sad events that ensued over the next five days at Mountain Meadows still defy any clear or simple explanation. During the siege, fifteen emigrant men were killed in the fighting or while trying to escape. Then late Friday afternoon, September 11th, the emigrants were persuaded to give up their weapons and leave their corralled wagons in exchange for a promise of safe passage to Cedar City. Under heavy guard, they made their way out of the encirclement. When they were all out of the corral and some of them more than a mile up the valley, they were suddenly and without warning attacked by their supposed benefactors. The local Indians joined in the slaughter, and in a matter of minutes fourteen adult male emigrants, twelve women, and thirty-five children were struck down. Nine hired hands driving cattle were also killed along with at least thirty-five other unknown victims. At least 120 souls died in what became known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Seventeen children under the age of eight survived the ordeal and were eventually returned to Arkansas. One or more other children may have remained in Utah.

One could drive an entire Arkansas wagon train through the historical gaffs and holes-in-the-truth in that one.

> During the siege, fifteen emigrant men were killed in the fighting or while trying to escape.

Killed in the fighting? Most were shot down in cold blood during the initial sneak attack... And the ones who tried to escape were captured by Mormons and murdered as well...

Similarly, a more honest account of the stories of the survivors would read, "Seventeen children were spared by the individuals who'd executed their parents. After two years, federal officers removed them from the Mormons who'd been keeping them, and eventually the United States government facilitated their return to their Arkansas relatives."

There is, incidentally, no hard evidence that one or more of the surviving children may have been hidden away and remained in Utah. Popular stories exist to this effect, and Juanita Brooks appears to have believed them, but there's little consistency in their telling. (per Will Bagley's "Blood of the Prophets")

Incredibly, the site also appears to serve LDS genealogy purposes. I happened on it by doing a bit of Googling about Isaac C. Haight, and the following appeared. I was so dumbfounded by what I encountered, I've forgotten what I wanted to learn in the first place...

http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/isaac_haight.htm

This one ripped me right in my innards...

"The territorial militia (affectionately, the Nauvoo Legion)"

BTW, I've had an e-mail dialogue with an individual whose ancestors were from Cedar City and elected to "hide out" when the call for said militia was given. This is pretty conclusive evidence they were aware what fate was planned for the emigrants, and they elected to avoid participating in the slaughter.

And even the report on the Haight history is strong evidence the massacre was planned well in advance and claims the emigrants provoked the Cedar City residents amount to a lot of nonsense.

"Several meetings were held in Cedar City and Parowan to determine how the "War Orders" should be implemented. The militia decided that the Fancher train should be eliminated."

The Fancher/Baker Train arrived in Cedar City on Friday afternoon, left soon afterwards, and the intial attack took place fifty miles away on Monday morning. That's clearly close to the limit of how far a wagon train with 800 head of cattle and several hundred horses could travel in that length of time.

And it's absurd to suggest that it's possible to hold a meeting on Saturday afternoon, decide to commit mass murder, and assemble 40 or more men and a number of Indians and launch a sneak attack within that time frame.

Finally, in hopes of seeing at least some in-depth reporting and analysis on the subject, I clicked on the link "Reports - Scientific Data"

http://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/scientific_data.htm

This gave me a second link that only offered an "inventory" of the forensic remains accidentally uncovered during the 1999 monument reconstruction.

Here's a more comprehensive report on that subject:

http://1857massacre.com/MMM/passiveroll.htm

>MORMON Massacre at Mountain Meadows:

>Forensic Analysis Supports Paiute Tribe's Claim of Passive Role

>A new forensic study lends credence to Paiute Indian claims that the tribe did not participate in the infamous Mountain Meadows Massacre of 1857 to the extent history has recorded.

>First Findings: The Tribune reported Novak's preliminary findings from the massacre remains last March. Her research was prematurely terminated when Gov. Mike Leavitt asked state officials to order immediate return of the bones to BYU for the reburial ceremony when Hinckley dedicated a new monument to the victims. In an e-mail sent to state history officials, the governor -- whose ancestor Dudley Leavitt was one of the participants in the slaughter -- wrote he did not want controversy to highlight "the rather good-spirited attempt to put [the massacre] behind us."

>Novak's final study, which was presented in October to the Midwest Bioarchaeology and Forensic Anthropology Association conference in Missouri, upholds most of those preliminary findings. At least 28 victims were discerned from the 2,605 pieces of bone, most of which were broken by a backhoe digging a foundation for the new monument. The skulls of 18 victims were partially reconstructed for trauma analysis.

>The majority of gunshot wounds were in the heads of young adult males, although one child, aged 10-15, also was shot in the head. That gunshot victim "suggests the killing of women and children may have been more complicated than accounts described in the diaries," wrote Novak, who has since joined the faculty of Indiana State University.

>Another indication of women and children being executed is the fractured palate of a female, aged 18-22. The pattern of the bone fracture, along with the blackened and burned crowns of the woman's teeth, is consistent with a gunshot wound.

>Suggestions that most emigrant men were shot in the back of the head and from the rear while fleeing also are questioned by bullet trajectories through the skulls. Six individuals were shot in the head from behind, while five were shot in frontal assaults.

Good Post.

Thanx

For some reason, the fact that the forensic analysis was cut short by mormon politicians never stuck with me before.

Seems to me that descendants should demand that the friggin' memorial be removed, that the site should be thoroughly explored by experts, and that BYU should not be involved.

>>>>>>>>>>>>In Nauvoo, Isaac served on the police force and as a body guard for Joseph Smith. Isaac was in Utah guarding the temple in Nauvoo when word came that Joseph Smith and his brother, Hiram, had been killed. Isaac was the first person to receive the news.<<<<<<<<<<<

Isaac was in Utah guarding the temple in Nauvoo? What the heck does that mean?

It was the middle of the night when I saw it, and I forgot to include it in my post... Definitely a WTF moment...

Thanks for rescuing that one...

It is kind of poster child stuff for a lack of critical thinking skills and an indictment of the propaganda that passes for LDS History...

(Innocent Blood - pp. 381-386)

While Haslam's recorded testimony about his emergency ride to SLC is clearly part of the cover up, I find something interesting.

Haslam testifies that he was asked to take the message to Brigham Young AFTER the "Indians" had corralled the emigrants in Mountain Meadows. We know now it wasn't the Indians but the Cedar City Mormons. Now if the locals were acting on their own, as the "party line" avows, why would they send to BY for instructions? It's only logical to me that they assumed they were acting in the least on BY's wishes if not his actual orders or they wouldn't have needed to send Haslam to SLC asking BY what to do.

Since it's clear Haslam's testimony is false, can we even assume there was such a ride?

See p. 136 of "Blood of the Prophets." You and I might be the only ones with copies of "Innocent Blood."

A copy of Brigham Young's letter to Haight was found in 1884, and Will discusses the wording as well as noting that events in Cedar City indicate Haight received something consistent with it. Too, Garland Hurt notes that a messenger was sent north (pp. 163-64: BOP... Hurt was the non-Mormon Indian agent in Spanish Fork and learned the essential details within two weeks of the killings).

The cryptic wording in BY's note to Haight: "The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings among them. There are no other trains going south that I know of."

Even Juanita Brooks was puzzled by this one although she felt it exonerated BY from direct complicity in the killings.

The claim by BY of knowing of "no other trains" is extremely dubious; the Duke and Turner parties weren't far behind the doomed Arkansans, and the Duke train lost all of their stock to "Mormons and their allies." (p. 164-68)

The question I keep asking regarding Haslam's ride is "Why didn't the Iron County Militia wait for his return before proceeding with the massacre?"

Will addressed that one over lunch a few years ago, noting that they knew the Duke train was approaching as well... Haight's note to Young was on the order of "Lee and the Indians have the emigrants corraled" and it was a request for further instruction. So one wonders what was in the original orders that were probably conveyed south by George A. Smith.

This stuff is complicated and nuanced (and no doubt the apologists will toss turds all over such interpretations); even the dates of the actual killings aren't chiseled in stone, but only represent the "best guesses" of competent historians. On that one, if the encounter at Cedar City and the massacre took place later--after Haslam's arrival--then BY's guilt is clear. Some additional message must've been transmitted--perhaps by word of mouth--from Young to Haight.

That's all conjecture on my part, however, and I think I'm working from memory of some stuff Brooks mentioned.

JW, are you around? Would you like a turn at the podium?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/10/2011 03:49PM by SL Cabbie.

So they send Haslam to get instructions from BY as to what to do. Haslam evidently takes too long so they have to give it their best guess as to what BY would want them to do. These people who knew BY intimately, who had sat and counseled with him on many occasions, who included at least one adopted son of BY decided that what BY wanted them to do was massacre 120 or so men, women, and children.

Even if you buy the Church's version it makes BY to be seen as a mass murderer by those who knew him intimately.

It was the MMM and my research into learning more about this horrid event just 5 years ago that started my journey from 60 year faithful member & born into the church to resigning from the church some 4 years ago. I read three different books and tons of information online about the MMM and then many other books and website information about other aspects of Mormonism and especially the events of its founding history......all of which ended up causing my total loss of faith and belief in this religon.

I can not even think about the events of the MMM today without fuming with anger over what happened and how the church continues to not accept their true involvment in this despicable act. How could any decent human being let themselves being drawn into committing this kind of slaughter of human life?

I posted the part of B. Young's "Blood-Atonement" on Utah GA's twitter, and wrote "I didn't realise Utah till practises blood atonement". when he boasted him watching the latest firing squad.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leetrial.html

He called me and others "whiners" :)
I posted the polygamy law on his site and asked about it and signd it 'a whiner'.

I knwo there's lots of good books on the MMM. But do you know of any good websites that go into detail on the MMM?

http://1857massacre.com/index.htm

I just wish he wouldn't use that "September Dawn" stuff so much, but that's a bias I've had since I saw the movie (Sandra Tanner was at the same screening).

This stuff is provocative, but I'm not sure it's possible to soft-peddle the cold-bloded murder of 120 people by other American citizens...

BTW, Buchanan's pardon wouldn't have covered Young for the murders if had been proven he ordered them. Note that it didn't help John D. Lee...

I immediately sent Will an e-mail inviting him to fact check this stuff after I put it up, and the only bit of clarification he offered was the distance from Cedar City to the Massacre site. I'd seen conflicting reports giving fifty miles and a shorter one...

Will writes,

The Fanchers took Leach's Cutoff. From BOTP:

>Upon leaving the Little Salt Lake Valley south of Cedar City, the road crossed the Harmony Mountains to the last resting place on the trail, Mountain Meadows, an oasis of lush grass and fine spring water wedged between the Pine Valley and Bull Valley ranges. A new route, Leach's Cutoff, shortened the Spanish Trail's passage to the meadows. Mail carrier and road contractor James B. Leach opened the $70,000 cutoff in 1855 with a Mormon road crew. By Leach's new route, it was thirty-seven miles from Cedar City to the meadows, where sojourners had one last chance to prepare for the last four hundred arduous miles to the gardens and mines of California. Leach had to hire Nephi Johnson, one of the original pioneers of Iron County, to direct his road crew, since as devout men they "could not stand his rough language."

And then he sent me this when we were discussing the "Little Salt Lake Valley." It was a challenge thrown at Brigham Young on just how loyal the Saints were to the United States... In 1852 no less...

>"No people in the world are more friendly to the United States than the people of Utah!? Why then, sir, are you cultivating so sedulously a military spirit among your deluded followers: Why such zeal in accumulating military stores? Why did you send one hundred of your most tried and choice followers, in the month of December, 1850, to Little Salt Lake, where it was known there was an abundance of coal and iron ore, to erect a foundry for the casting of cannon?

>Winter with the Mormons: The 1852 Letters of Jotham Goodell

Anyway, for those RFMers blessed with a bigger "library fund" than my own, here's Will's latest book...

http://www.amazon.com/So-Rugged-Mountainous-California-1812-1848/dp/0870623818

I think the one with the $136 price tag is a leatherbound special collector's edition... The other volume is way less, of course... Will tells me the book just won National Cowboy and Western Heritage Museum's Wrangler Award for Outstanding Non-fiction Book.

Finally, I note from the other thread that this site,

http://www.mtnmeadows.org

Is hosted by Terry Fancher, a relative of Captain Alexander Fancher. The site is devoid of recrimination and the historical detail is minimal, but the resource link offers a list of books that included Brooks, Bagley, and Brodie...

My bishop admitted to me in my exit interview there could have been "bad Mormons" who perpetrated this massacre. I thought that was a very honest admission. Unfortunately, it's not the official LDS position.

"local" was the word that caught my eye, right off the bat.

1) By their fruits ye shall know them. The fact that really struck me when I first started reading about the MMM years ago was the story of the surviving children. On first reading this, I immediately concluded that these murderers (and their wives) concluded that it was better to kidnap these children and hope no one noticed, than return them to their families/relatives in Arkansas (after all, who the hell would volunteer to lead THAT wagon train--those Arkansans killed Mormons...like Parley P Pratt [of course it wasn't Arkansans but a protective father, Hector Mclean, but that is another story]). This coupled with the fact that it was the US Army (by MAJ Carleton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Henry_Carleton )that buried what was left of the Fancher party have led me to some conclusions. So here we have two FACTS...not conjecture. Kidnapped children and unburied remains. So there should be no doubt in anyone's mind that everyone in the vicinity of the massacre was complicit. MAJ Carleton's account is quite revealing by the way http://1857massacre.com/MMM/carlton_report.htm

2) Now, comes the real question. Were they acting under orders or were they a group of renegade, fringe murderers who just got caught up in the moment and went "over the top" with their actions. The LDS church would prefer that everyone bought into the latter theory. For me, that theory just doesn't wash. IF this was a renegade group that went berserk, why wouldn't BY discipline them? Why wouldn't he show that the territory of Deseret was governed by a just theocracy? But he didn't do that....IF this was a renegade group that went berserk, why weren't they excommunicated--all of them--especially the kidnappers of the children and those with blood on their hands? BY didn't do that either. What he DID do was obstruct justice. Now WHY would he do that??????

3) The story of the MMM trials ( http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leeaccount.html ) that concluded in the 1877 [yes, 20 years after the fact] with the execution of Lee is one of obstruction, conspiracy, and deceipt by Mormons...for Mormons. It is THE reason the church-financed fiction novel on the MMM, entitiled "Masscre at Mountain Meadows" ( http://www.amazon.com/Massacre-Mountain-Meadows-Ronald-Walker/dp/0195160347 ), chose to completely skip over this part of the story. Yes, the church financed novel jumps from dead bodies lying on the ground to Lee's execution--nothing in between. Quite convenient if your intent is to give your members a way to rebuke history with a "well, it's been addressed by historians...".

4) By their fruits ye shall know them......and by their "fruits" [which I like to refer to as FACTS]...we all should "know" that BY ordered the massacre...plain and simple.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/01/2011 04:55PM by jw the inquizzinator.

I even have a copy I promised to someone else (who's recuperating and will doubtless have a helluva story to tell, but it's his, not mine). Paperback because I'm financially challenged these days...

It'll take me a month or three to get through it because I've got real crap coming at me as well...

But I'm counting on you to talk me down as I work my way through it... Well, you and Will Bagley, of course...