Posted by:
amiwhiteyet
(
)
Date: December 02, 2013 02:50PM
With the recent passing of Paul Walker a (as Mr. Diety likes to say...) Formon. A family member was expressing her sadness at his passing. I not so subtly pointed out that per Mormon Doctrine, Mr. Walker by rejected the gospel is either suffering in hell (spirit prison) or the doctrine is false and Mr. Walker is not in hell asking which outcome is correct?
Initially, I was met with crickets and dance-around responses. I continued to hold their feet to the fire quoting scripture and LDS apostles like Boyd KKK Packer on the matter where he refers to apostates as: "disease germs". Later my bil (that I can't stand and no respect whatsoever for) chimed in saying it was Benson who said it and that he was taken out of context. When I asked for proof, he tried pulling the "burden of proof fallacy" and saying it was my burden to show Packer had indeed said what he did. That took no time whatsoever. His remarks came from his infamously horrid "The mantle is far, far greater than the intellect" which I define as, "The perception of Mormonism is far more greater than the actual truth of Mormonism". I spared no time in citing the source and pointing out his logical fallacy with a link (https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof). I also challenged him to show his proof that the comments actually came from Benson. No response...
My neice chimed in about some feel-good hooey about how if "Paul was a Buddhist he's already been reincarnated as a butterfly or a baby or something else or if he believed in the Klingon religion then he might be on the black fleet on his way to Sto'Vo'Kor". I pointed out how that made no sense as by that rationale, the 9/11 terrorists are in heaven with their 70 virgins while anyone who didn't believe in Allah is burning in hell. She also claimed that spirit paradise isn't just for those who accept Mormonism. It took no time to refute that claim either courtesy of lds.org which states with regards to spirit prison:
"the spirit prison are those who rejected the gospel after it was preached to them either on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell."
The argument was air-tight and everyone knew it as such, the only other option is to go with a semi-quasi persecution, why so angry argument. I've seen this question before and was more than happy to explain the following:
(Niece), I'll be the first to admit a chip exists and for good reason. In spite of this, I'm still not denigrating and insulting about it like Elder Packer and others in LDS leadership have been. I don't call names or use mean terms like "disease germs" regarding you or anyone else who chooses to believe. I spent Thanksgiving with my girlfriend's LDS uncle and his family and hold the utmost respect for him despite the obvious personal differences with regards to Mormonism. My chip exists largely because LDS faithful are not honest or genuine in their handling of those like myself who choose to leave. Some of the penalties for apostasy from Mormonism include:
Loss of employment: Lynn K. Wilder, Michael Quinn, Roy Potter to name a few...
Character assasination and slander: Thomas B. Marsh, former Mormon apostle who along with Orson Hyde, left the church on account of the looting and pillaging being performed by the Mormon Danites in Missouri is a perfect example. His departure was later contorted into the fable that he left the church over "milk strippings" which was not the case at all and had nothing to do with why he left. President Monson has perpetuated this lie in public talks on more than one occassion.
Simon Southerton a biologist and former Bishop who left the church after discovering DNA research that shows Native Americans don't have an ounce of Hebrew DNA contrary to the Book of Mormon's claim. After raising his concerns, he was later excommunicated for adultery when he had never been unfaithful to his wife
In films depicting church history, Joseph Smith is tall, radiant and handsome whereas those who oppose him are depicted as filthy and uncomely, missing teeth, etc.
False generalizations: If I had a nickel for everytime someone assumed my departure was based on: A desire to sin, being offended, possessing an evil countenance instead of the actual reason: A realization that the church is false and has lied to me on numerous occassions. Lies that continue and include:
Joseph Smith's polygamy. I was told by Brother XXXXX in seminary that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy while he was alive. When in fact, he very much practicted it taking at least 33 wives, 11 of which were already married to living husbands.
Joseph Smith's translation of the Book of Mormon. Every depiction that church has produced shows Joseph Smith with the plates examining them as he's doing the translation when in fact first-hand witnesses such as Emma Smith, Martin Harris and David Whitmer stated the plates were never used and that Joseph used a seer stone (the same one he used to try to find hidden treasure, an offense he was convicted for in 1826) and a hat. Russell M. Nelson acknowledges this in his July 1993 Ensign talk, "A Treasured Testament"
The activities of the Mormons in Missouri which included: being the first to raid and loot towns, issue an "extermination order" (Sidney Rigdon's infamous Salt Sermon talk) and prophesying the Missourians were to hand over their property to the church. When was the last time you heard that told in church? Never!
More recently, Jeffrey Holland's lie in a BBC documentary regarding Mitt Romney having never taken blood oaths in the temple when in fact he did. I did too.
Joseph Smith's official version of the First Vision conveniently bypassing the 8 previous versions that contradict one another.
Fabricating membership numbers in an effort to bolster the myth the church which only possesses .02% of the world population is the "fastest growing church" when in fact it is not. This is abundantly obvious when one compares the church's annual attrition numbers (people who should no longer be counted on the church's membership on account of: death, excommunication or resigning their membership). Even with death, excommunication and resignation, the church somehow has held a lower attrition rate of .78% than the average mortality rate in the US of .799%. It's not a miracle it's simply number manipulation since "not all truths are useful"
Ostracization: Another notable Formon Tal Bachman put it this way in an interview with Bill Maher: "The moment you acknowledge to yourself that Joseph Smith did not tell the truth about his experiences and his achievements, you've just committed social suicide"
Spying and surveillance courtesy of the "strengthening the members committee". In a recent interview with the BBC, church spokesperson Michael Purdy lied about its existence only to admit shortly thereafter that it does in fact exist. There are numerous instances where the church spied on former members and kept a file of their activites. I suggest you watch the BBC documentary if you'd like to learn more regarding the committee and their "courts of love" that result from their surveillance activities.
Divorce: I have seen numerous instances where the church directed members to divorce their spouse when they no longer believe in Mormonism. In fact, its a fairly common occurrence.
Condemnation: Mormon doctrine is explicitly clear on this. Anyone who leaves the church forfeits the mercy and atonement of Jesus and is subject to the punishment of hell. Personally, I consider it spiritual blackmail and not the merits of a just and loving God. While many of the faith are reluctant to state it, they full expect the apostate to go to hell. This was the reason my departure deeply hurt my mother. She loves me and is quite fearful and fully expectant of that outcome. She doesn't want me to end up there but ultimately, it is her expectation that I will based upon Mormon doctrine that she firmly believes.
In the case of a well-liked person like Mr. Walker this creates a real dilemma that doesn't fit into the typical apostate narrative Mormons typically follow. He was an overall good person, well-liked and as such, no one wants to see him suffer in hell. If he was a relatively unknown person, I'm certain he wouldn't be as fortunate with the Mormons. As such, the only way around this is to flip the script and contort things to fit the narrative of Mormonism. Unfortunately, the doctrine as I've shown is very clear and no amount of finessing or semantics can get you around this and that's what frustrates many of you.
Frankly, I don't care about your dilemma or the cognitive dissonance anyone is encountering as a result. I didn't make up the doctrine nor do I choose to believe it. You did.
Thoughts?