Dear Dr. Love: 9 months ago I was the featured piano player at a very large LDS event, and happened to meet a beautiful Chinese woman from Hong Kong. She has been in the USA for 18 years and speaks great English and actually has seemingly just the right amount of "North American" culture and habits, while retaining her Asian style. Here are some vital stats for you:

Me, age 51, Her, age 48
She's in Seattle, I'm 4 hours away in Eastern WA.
She's a homeowner and has her own business. She was married once to a TBM, but he started gambling, carousing, and left the church. Been divorced 7 years. She has a 14 yr old daughter.
Me, have never been married.....was raised in the Church, but left 22 yrs ago because of doctrinal issues.

So we began dating and fell in love, there was a tremendous mutual attraction and we got along wonderfully. She is 5"9 and quite slim, very attractive. After about 3 months we sort of got TOO affectionate and did the "heavy petting" stuff, but had reasonable control and did not go "all the way".

As I have been knowing her better & better, it's apparent she has a much stronger personality that she displayed at first. She kind of needs to have her way in most things. I'm OK with that, I can be somewhat passive unless it's an issue I feel strongly about.

Anyway, would love to marry this woman. But has recently acquired many doubts, and does NOT quite feel as strong about me as previously. It's because she wants Priesthood holder to take her to the temple....and yes, rescue her from her sealing to her evil ex-husband.

All along I assumed I could slowly show her, and help her study her way out of the cult. But she will not listen, has closed mind, and says she "knows" Mormonism is true due to the good feeling she has.

I know many would tell me just to "run away" and exit this whole mess......but the feelings toward her are so strong, and I really believe we could be happy together. But she needs to see the truth about the LDS falsehoods and nonsense. What can I do to regain her intense love, her longing affection, her great hope that we used to have? What's your advice, Dr. Love?

Milkb4Myth Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> She kind of needs to have
> her way in most things. I'm OK with that, I can
> be somewhat passive unless it's an issue I feel
> strongly about.

I'm betting the thing she wants her way is to have you become active again and take her to the temple.

How strongly do you feel about having to return to the church for her? Are you going to be passive about her nagging you to return to the church?

> But has
> recently acquired many doubts, and does NOT quite
> feel as strong about me as previously. It's
> because she wants Priesthood holder to take her to
> the temple....and yes, rescue her from her sealing
> to her evil ex-husband.

There you have it, she wants a rescuer.

Sounds like this relationship for her is much more about her and what she expects and wants and hopes of you. Not about YOUR expectations, wants and hopes.

> I know many would tell me just to "run away" and
> exit this whole mess......but the feelings toward
> her are so strong, and I really believe we could
> be happy together.

I won't tell you "run away" but were it me I'd be running.

> But she needs to see the truth
> about the LDS falsehoods and nonsense. What can I
> do to regain her intense love, her longing
> affection, her great hope that we used to have?
> What's your advice, Dr. Love?

Of course it would be nice if she was willing to see the truth about the Church but she refuses to listen so doesn't sound like she will pursue this relationship with you unless she gets her way.

I would run away too-- plus I would have sounded her out before I got that close (if I were a male). But then, I escaped several marriage captures ;-) before I found the hubby who is a nevermo.

She wants to change you and you want to change her. There will not be a happy ending.

It sounds like bad news. I empathize, though, because it's tough to break up with someone who seems just right.

You both want to change each other--major red flags. You should never get seriously involved with someone if they "need to change" in order for you to be happy with them.

>What can I do to regain her intense love, her longing affection, her great hope that we used to have?

Become a practicing Mormon again



>What's your advice, Dr. Love?

Run away

Run.
"In marriage, every woman thinks she can change the man. Every man thinks the woman will never change." Nobody gets what they want, even if she never changes in this case. She's controlling and wants to stay TBM. The above posters sorted this out. At least she's announced how she wants to change you.

When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time.

What madalice said:
"When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time."

This would be the time to walk away, when your investment in the woman is minimal. If you are already an indecisive and compliant person then you would probably never muster the energy and the nerve to divorce her later no matter how much she rides you with the church and how squashed you feel.

If you are set on this person at least don't marry her until she is entirely free of mormonism. (That will probably not happen but you can invest the years of preparation if you want to.)

GREAT WISE ADVICE from madalice.


You are not what she wants.

She is not what you want.


Yet you say (wistfully) that you two seem to maybe get alone so well together...when the infatuation and hormones were a little thicker.

You could be talking about Sophie Vergara. You and Sophie would be great together if she were older and you were richer.

In other words, if you were different people.

I always wondered if older people could ever fall in love with love like young people do. You have answered my question.


Anagrammy

"When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time."

No kidding. Shouldn't this be cross-stitched on a pillow or something?

Hi Milk

Dr. Love here. Great to chat with you. I really sense the enthusiasm you have for this lady, and I know it's rare to have that special chemistry with someone. I hope I can help you out.

I understand your situation in a nutshell to be as follows:

You would marry her, even if she remained a Mormon; but she won't marry you, as long as you're not. The impasse could be broken if she were to investigate the church (and leave), but she won't investigate. So you're stuck. Meanwhile, her ardour for you is waning.

Here are Dr. Love's suggestions:

1.) Avoid focusing on "how to get her", or "how to get her out of the church", etc. Instead, take a deep breath, clear your mind, and remember this important truth, which needs to serve as your starting point from now on:

In the end, her life is *her life*. She chooses how to live it based on her needs, desires, and best understanding. And she might not choose the path you want. If so...life will go on, and you will live to smile and laugh again. In other words, you must begin from a starting point of more highly valuing *her* agency, needs, and understanding about herself, than your desire to be with her.

Now, as it happens, not only is this approach the right way to go ethically, but it will also increasingly imbue you with confidence, calm, and emotional strength, which she will probably pick up on, and which will make you more attractive to her. But that is an ancillary benefit. Be stoic and accepting of whatever happens.

2.) It follows from Point One that your goal is not (or should not be) to "get her out of the church". It is to show respect for her by *giving her an opportunity to discover facts relevant to her continuing decision to remain a Mormon*. There is a big difference. The first is what presumptuous bullies do. The second is what conscientious and caring people do - and they then respect the decisions the other person makes, whether it is to stay in the church, or leave.

In this link (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1103776), I described two powerful questions to ask church members. The first is especially powerful because it is not at all a frontal assault on a suite of religious beliefs, but rather, a question about what kind of person they are. I think that, in the right moment (probably in person, and when she is feeling your connection, and has opened up emotionally to you, and can feel your sincerity, etc.), you should ask her that first question. But I would lead up to it, hearing her talk about her faith, sharing what you appreciate about her faith, trying to establish some common ground there, and trying to create a situation in which she can feel your sincerity...let the conversation roll on, never arguing with her, but hearing her out, and then, when the moment is there, just ask her:

"Gina...if by some chance, it turned out that Mormonism wasn't what we once thought, would you even want to know?"

Hopefully, she will answer either yes or no. If she says no - that probably means there's no future for you guys. It also means there's really nothing more you should say about her faith. After all, you asked her if she would want to know more, and she declined, so...you respect that.

If she says, "well...now that I think about it...I guess I would", continue the conversation, being supportive, etc. AND, order Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" off of www.amazon.com, and give it to her. In fact, you should order it right now and have it with you, just in case you get to have that "opening up" conversation, and she opens to hearing more. Then, you can give it to her right then and there (or in the car later).

If she deflects the question by saying, "But I already know it's true", tell her that you know that; but come round again, and say, "if, by some chance, those feelings of certainty came from God - because you were trying to find the truth - but it turned out that, say, Joseph Smith didn't tell the truth about his experiences, and you could know that...would you want to?"

If she finally answers yes or no, see above. If she completely refuses to say anything other than, "I can't answer that, even though it's a hypothetical, because I already know it's true", what you have is a wonderful woman with all sorts of virtues, who, however, has been brainwashed, and who is currently (and maybe forever) beyond the reach of fact or logic on the topic of Mormonism. That, like the answer "no", means that there's probably no future for you. But...at least you will know. Fortunately, your renewed commitment to stoicism will help you get past that (hint hint :).

3.) In your case, there is an alternative to Option 2 above. In Option 2, you created an opportunity for her to show what kind of person she was with regards to the truth. In Option 3, you create an opportunity for her to show what kind of person she is with regards to *you*. Here it is:

Create a warm and emotionally intimate conversation with her about you two - your beliefs, your relationship, where you're going, etc. And without ever saying anything negative about the church, you express to her that you respect her religious beliefs, and that it would also mean a lot to you for her to understand more about your own "spiritual journey" (use those words rather than the more alarm-triggering "religious beliefs"). Ask her if that is something you could share with her in more depth, either right then, or at a later date.

If she declines, I would say, game over - she doesn't meet the baseline for interest in you.

But if she says, "you know...I understand that. Okay. I want you to be able to share more about your spiritual journey with me", great.

In that discussion, talk about your spiritual intuitions, spiritual longings, spiritual experiences, questions, AND gently allude to "questions about Mormonism" that you had, which you couldn't quite find answers to; and THEN, explain that it would mean a lot to you if she read a sensitively-written article by an institute teacher about those questions. If she consents, hand her either a photocopy of the chapter on The First Vision in the Grant Palmer book, or the whole book, with that chapter marked.

If she ends up reading it, but dismisses it - bad sign.

If she declines to read it - also bad sign.

If she ends up reading it, and then reading the rest of the book, and wants to discuss it further, you're in luck.

The important thing in Option 3 is to create a situation in which your lady shows to what extent she cares about you and your experiences; so in a way, it's win-win-win: if she declines, you know she's not the one for you, and you can move on. If she consents but dismisses it and continues detaching from you, you know she's not the one for you, and you can move on. If she consents, and begins to open her mind, you know she might just be the one for you, and you can proceed together.

Good luck, my friend. Hope that helps.

Dr. Love



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2013 03:25PM by Tal Bachman.

Bang her.
She gets exxed.
Problem solved

Funny thought. But in actuality if you banged her and got her ex'd, she would blame you and resent you for it. Plus you would get to deal with all of that seriously f*cked up Mormon sexual guilt and B.S. as she goes through the "repentence process". Trust me, you don't want to go there.

More than anything else that you said in your post, the part that concerned me the most was the part where you said that she is high strung and you are passive.

Speaking from personal experience, I can tell you that is a real bad combination. If you are already noticing it now, I can assure you that it won't get better after you two are committed.

I know this probably isn't what you want to hear, but I agree with almost every other poster here.

Run away.

Thanks everyone for your replies/advice. I value it so much.

Summer, I respect your contributions to this forum extremely much. You are amazing and very wise. Because of my super-excitement/hope/attraction to this woman, I wish you could elaborate......you see, it's not that I want to change HER...just that one aspect of her life where she gives control of many things over to the LDS leaders. Do you have further words of analysis for me?

Believe me, I understand. I once walked in your shoes. I understand just how much you want to make it happen. I understand that you would move heaven and Earth to make it happen.

However you can feel all of the super-excitement/hope/attraction that you want to, but if she doesn't feel likewise, it's game over. (There's a harsh but true expression about that: she's just not that into you.) And it's obvious to me that in order to love you to the degree that you wish, she needs you to take her to the temple. It's a non-negotiable for her. Given her desire to be the dominant partner in your relationship, she also thinks she can make that happen. Her emotional withdrawal from you is a manipulation. That concerns me, and it should concern you.

Does she love YOU enough to accept you just the way you are? I think not. But if you are not yet convinced, Tal has outlined a slow, measured approach that should give you the information that you need in order to make a good decision.

Dr. Love: Thank you for your advice, your insight. Your words make good sense. I will do as you suggest! I will be driving over the Cascade Mtns on I-90 to see her tomorrow. We are going to see the movie "Hunger Games" part 2. I truly wish this could work out with her, my care and affection for her is extremely "off the charts".

All this just makes me HATE the LDS church so much. (the false doctrine, the lies, the leaders, the control)

Anyway, thanks again and I will let you know how things turn out.

Milk - Maybe there's a bookstore in the greater Seattle area which has Grant Palmer's "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins". Palmer was an LDS Institute director, high priests group leader, and member of the Mormon History Association. You can present it as a sensitive and thoughtful examination of some of the concerns you had. It's the single best summary of how we know Joseph Smith's tales were invented, and if you're determined to give this a shot, I'd have it ready to give to your lady in case she opens up a bit.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes!

Dr. Love

I guess just play it out to its end. Enjoy her company and quit thinking about marrying her. Just enjoy the relationship for what it is. If either of you tire of it, move on.

As is always the case, you can only have a healthy, long lasting relationship if you communicate your wants and needs to each other and then determine you are compatible. I never like to toss a relationship on the junk heap from the get go, so I generally don't like the advice to just cut and run. However, it does sound like you have very different expectations of each other that you have either not communicated clearly or accepted. You need to fix this ASAP. Get her honest feedback on if she expects you to become a priesthood holding temple going husband. Tell her where your limits are. Only you and she can decide where to draw the lines and how much you are willing to tolerate, and that means honest and open communication.

P.S. A go-for-it partner with an agenda + a passive I'll-do-whatever-keeps-you-happy partner doesn't sound like much fun for the second guy to me.

I agree with you for the most part, but you can't have a "long" healthy relationship with any true TBM because their main focus is to tie you down and get you to the temple ASAP. Hence the reason even TBM adults end up marrying within 6 months or less of meeting each other. If they could just date and be casual for awhile, I think this could work out. But I think she has a different agenda in mind.

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say you can't have a long healthy relationship with ANY TBM. It is more complicated, for sure, but all interpersonal relationships, especially romantic ones, tend to get complicated, don't they?

How much time will you have to devote to the mormon church if you join up for her? If you can tolerate that, just get back in and have fun with her. You aren't having kids. You're 51 and may never find someone with that type of connection. If she turns out to be a cold fish, get divorced. Otherwise, live it up and have fun with someone you love. The beliefs - hell, you can't avoid some crazy in this world.

I think you need to sit down and let her know in no uncertain terms that you will NOT be joining the church and ask her if that is something she can deal with.

Can you deal with her continuing to be a member? Keep in mind all the commitments that will be required of her.

If you can't deal with it or she can't, better to save yourself the heartache because it won't work.

Openness and honesty is the only chance you have here. Or, rejoin the church. I vote for honesty though.

From what I have read, you are not a match in some very important issues that are deal breakers. Just my opinion, but it's time to end this and move on.

Tell her about this NEW announcement from the church - the racist one. If that doesn't do it, she is too stupid to be married to. Dump her.