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. . . from himself.
It is important to keep in mind historically-contexualized facts when Mormon Church apologists who--when confronted with the ugly realities of racist LDS Church doctrine, policy and practice--attempt to shrug off this foundational Mormon Church behavioral problem as being nothing more than the understandable foibles of the Mormon Church's imperfect human "prophets."
The big fly in the ointment is this:
These obviously deeply-flawed and blatantly-bigoted Mormon "prophets" have, throughout the history of the LDS Church, attempted to justify their racial prejudice on the basis of established, canonized, scripture as it exists in the founding texts of the Mormon Church itself.
Take, for example, the racist rhetoric of Joseph Fielding Smith (eventual president/"prophet" of the Mormon Church) who, as will be shown, defended his anti-Black views as being true, based on the words he invoked from officially-endorsed and -embraced Mormon Church scripture.
First, however, Joseph Fielding Smith threw a racist sop to these allegedly spiritually-deficient Blacks:
"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our Church."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in "Look" magazine, 22 October 1963, p. 79)
The "place" designated for these people Joseph Fielding Smith whom called "darkies" was not a place of equality but, rather, one of race-based inequality--a place which Smith asserted was established by the Mormon God who, Latter-day Saints insist, issued heavenly commands to the Mormon Church through divinely-revealed scripture via Mormonism's heaven-chosen "prophets."
Underscoring that assertion, here is where Joseph Fielding Smith made his go-to argument for the anti-Black positions he peddled in the name of White-priesthood
Mormonism:
"Let us reason together. In the Book of Moses, Chapter 4, and in the Book of Abraham, Chapter 8, we are taught that there was a council held in heaven and our Eternal Father presented a plan by which we could come down on the earth and receive tabernacles (bodies) of flesh and bones for our spirits which are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We learn also that one third of those spirits rebelled against the plan and
followed Satan.
"For this they were denied bodies of flesh and bones and have to remain spirits. Why do not those who complain about the Negro and the priesthood also complain about the punishment which was given to this third of the spirits? They were denied even the blessings of bodies!
"Was this an injustice on the part of our Eternal Father? Well, there were other spirits there who were not faithful in the keeping of this first estate. Yet they have not sinned away their right to receive bodies and come to earth and receive the resurrection. They were restricted in the privileges that were given to those who keep their first estate and who were promised to have 'glory added upon their heads
for ever and ever.' Therefore the Lord prepared a way through the lineage of Cain for these spirits to come to the earth, but under the restriction of priesthood."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 2. vol. pp. 151-52.)
Again, ultimately appealing to Mormon scripture (keeping in mind that the Mormon God revealed to Joseph Smith the racially-poisoned content of the LDS-canonized Book of Abraham and Book of Moses), Joseph Fielding Smith declared to the Mormon faithful:
"If Abraham, Joseph and Moses had married Negro wives their descendants would have been denied the priesthood, according to the word of the Lord to Abraham. Had such a thing happened the Lord would not have called Israel as a chosen people, neither would he have chosen the Prophet Joseph Smith and neither would he have chosen the Prophet Joseph Smith and given him the keys of authority for the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, as he was a descendant of Joseph and of Abraham.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 1, p. 169)
This festering racial bias was brought to you by an imperfect (and, may I add, fraudulent Mormon Church "prophet," Joseph Fielding Smith) who claimed God made him do it since it was God who revealed the Mormon Church playbook to Joseph Smith (and subsequent Mormon "prophets, seers and revelators").
The Mormon Church's supposed unique stake to "divine revelation" tracks back to God having allegedly dispensed his mind and will to the "one and only true church" of Jesus Christ (as Mormons like to describe it) . Thus, it takes the issue back not to imperfect racist humans who can't get it right but to the racist Mormon God who Mormons claim gets everything right.
This makes the Mormon God a self-described white supremacist and no "but-his prophets-are-only-human" argument will save this bigoted God--try as hard as Joseph Fielding Smith did to do just that.
Pumping his own book, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
"Kindly see chapters 15 and 16, in 'The Way to Perfection,' for further light in relation to the reason why the Negro cannot receive the priesthood. In brief, it is as follows: Because of transgression in the first estate which deprives him in this second estate. Since Cain slew his brother Abel in order to obtain all the rights of priesthood to descend through his lineage, the Lord decreed that the children of Cain should not have the privilege of bearing the priesthood until Abel had posterity who could have the priesthood and that will have to be in the far distant future. When this is accomplished on some other world, then the restrictions will be removed from the children of Cain who have been true in this 'second' estate."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 2, p. 188)
But, wait, there's more:
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Way to Perfection," 1935, p. 101)
Earth to Joseph Fielding Smith: Times still "endures" while we now have to endure the spectacle of the Mormon Church frantically back-peddling on God's commandments to you and your fellow "prophets" going back to your ancestor who made the whole thing up in the first place.
Then this from Joseph Fielding Smith (emphasizing what the Mormon Church has officially taught since the inception of the Mormon Church (as has inconveniently and essentially been so acknowledged by subsequent First Presidency statements):
"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [in the Mormon world of the pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.
Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits"
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1, pp. 61, 65-66)
Then, dissing "the so-called Christian denominations" [i.e., the non-Mormon ones], Joseph Fielding Smith had the unholy hubris to claim that the racist Mormon Church as done more for Blacks than any other church:
"The Negro who accepts the doctrines of the Church and is baptized by an authorized minister of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is entitled to salvation in the celestial kingdom or the highest heaven spoken of by Paul. It is true that the work of the ministry is given to other peoples and why should the so-called Christian denominations
complain? How many Negroes have been placed as ministers over white congregations in the so-called Christian denominations?"
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Church News," 14 July 1962)
_____
The unmitigated gall of it all.
Mormonism's problem with race, in one very real sense, actually IS the result of its imperfect, racist "prophets."
After all, it was these imperfect, racist Mormon 'prophets" who invented their imperfect, racist Mormon "God."
(originally posted under "Mormon Church Traces Black Priesthood Ban to Brigham Young," by Peggy Fletcher Stack, article first published in "Salt Lake Tribune" on 13 December 2013; see "Tribune" article and my comments above in reader commentary section, at: http://www.sltrib.com/pages/comments?cid=57241071)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2013 03:51AM by steve benson.
It is important to keep in mind historically-contexualized facts when Mormon Church apologists who--when confronted with the ugly realities of racist LDS Church doctrine, policy and practice--attempt to shrug off this foundational Mormon Church behavioral problem as being nothing more than the understandable foibles of the Mormon Church's imperfect human "prophets."
The big fly in the ointment is this:
These obviously deeply-flawed and blatantly-bigoted Mormon "prophets" have, throughout the history of the LDS Church, attempted to justify their racial prejudice on the basis of established, canonized, scripture as it exists in the founding texts of the Mormon Church itself.
Take, for example, the racist rhetoric of Joseph Fielding Smith (eventual president/"prophet" of the Mormon Church) who, as will be shown, defended his anti-Black views as being true, based on the words he invoked from officially-endorsed and -embraced Mormon Church scripture.
First, however, Joseph Fielding Smith threw a racist sop to these allegedly spiritually-deficient Blacks:
"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our Church."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in "Look" magazine, 22 October 1963, p. 79)
The "place" designated for these people Joseph Fielding Smith whom called "darkies" was not a place of equality but, rather, one of race-based inequality--a place which Smith asserted was established by the Mormon God who, Latter-day Saints insist, issued heavenly commands to the Mormon Church through divinely-revealed scripture via Mormonism's heaven-chosen "prophets."
Underscoring that assertion, here is where Joseph Fielding Smith made his go-to argument for the anti-Black positions he peddled in the name of White-priesthood
Mormonism:
"Let us reason together. In the Book of Moses, Chapter 4, and in the Book of Abraham, Chapter 8, we are taught that there was a council held in heaven and our Eternal Father presented a plan by which we could come down on the earth and receive tabernacles (bodies) of flesh and bones for our spirits which are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We learn also that one third of those spirits rebelled against the plan and
followed Satan.
"For this they were denied bodies of flesh and bones and have to remain spirits. Why do not those who complain about the Negro and the priesthood also complain about the punishment which was given to this third of the spirits? They were denied even the blessings of bodies!
"Was this an injustice on the part of our Eternal Father? Well, there were other spirits there who were not faithful in the keeping of this first estate. Yet they have not sinned away their right to receive bodies and come to earth and receive the resurrection. They were restricted in the privileges that were given to those who keep their first estate and who were promised to have 'glory added upon their heads
for ever and ever.' Therefore the Lord prepared a way through the lineage of Cain for these spirits to come to the earth, but under the restriction of priesthood."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 2. vol. pp. 151-52.)
Again, ultimately appealing to Mormon scripture (keeping in mind that the Mormon God revealed to Joseph Smith the racially-poisoned content of the LDS-canonized Book of Abraham and Book of Moses), Joseph Fielding Smith declared to the Mormon faithful:
"If Abraham, Joseph and Moses had married Negro wives their descendants would have been denied the priesthood, according to the word of the Lord to Abraham. Had such a thing happened the Lord would not have called Israel as a chosen people, neither would he have chosen the Prophet Joseph Smith and neither would he have chosen the Prophet Joseph Smith and given him the keys of authority for the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times, as he was a descendant of Joseph and of Abraham.
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 1, p. 169)
This festering racial bias was brought to you by an imperfect (and, may I add, fraudulent Mormon Church "prophet," Joseph Fielding Smith) who claimed God made him do it since it was God who revealed the Mormon Church playbook to Joseph Smith (and subsequent Mormon "prophets, seers and revelators").
The Mormon Church's supposed unique stake to "divine revelation" tracks back to God having allegedly dispensed his mind and will to the "one and only true church" of Jesus Christ (as Mormons like to describe it) . Thus, it takes the issue back not to imperfect racist humans who can't get it right but to the racist Mormon God who Mormons claim gets everything right.
This makes the Mormon God a self-described white supremacist and no "but-his prophets-are-only-human" argument will save this bigoted God--try as hard as Joseph Fielding Smith did to do just that.
Pumping his own book, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
"Kindly see chapters 15 and 16, in 'The Way to Perfection,' for further light in relation to the reason why the Negro cannot receive the priesthood. In brief, it is as follows: Because of transgression in the first estate which deprives him in this second estate. Since Cain slew his brother Abel in order to obtain all the rights of priesthood to descend through his lineage, the Lord decreed that the children of Cain should not have the privilege of bearing the priesthood until Abel had posterity who could have the priesthood and that will have to be in the far distant future. When this is accomplished on some other world, then the restrictions will be removed from the children of Cain who have been true in this 'second' estate."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Answers to Gospel Questions," vol. 2, p. 188)
But, wait, there's more:
"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Way to Perfection," 1935, p. 101)
Earth to Joseph Fielding Smith: Times still "endures" while we now have to endure the spectacle of the Mormon Church frantically back-peddling on God's commandments to you and your fellow "prophets" going back to your ancestor who made the whole thing up in the first place.
Then this from Joseph Fielding Smith (emphasizing what the Mormon Church has officially taught since the inception of the Mormon Church (as has inconveniently and essentially been so acknowledged by subsequent First Presidency statements):
"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there [in the Mormon world of the pre-existence] received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less. . . . There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. All took sides either with Christ or with Satan.
Every man had his agency there, and men receive rewards here based upon their actions there, just as they will receive rewards hereafter for deeds done in the body. The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits"
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Doctrines of Salvation," vol. 1, pp. 61, 65-66)
Then, dissing "the so-called Christian denominations" [i.e., the non-Mormon ones], Joseph Fielding Smith had the unholy hubris to claim that the racist Mormon Church as done more for Blacks than any other church:
"The Negro who accepts the doctrines of the Church and is baptized by an authorized minister of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is entitled to salvation in the celestial kingdom or the highest heaven spoken of by Paul. It is true that the work of the ministry is given to other peoples and why should the so-called Christian denominations
complain? How many Negroes have been placed as ministers over white congregations in the so-called Christian denominations?"
(Joseph Fielding Smith, "Church News," 14 July 1962)
_____
The unmitigated gall of it all.
Mormonism's problem with race, in one very real sense, actually IS the result of its imperfect, racist "prophets."
After all, it was these imperfect, racist Mormon 'prophets" who invented their imperfect, racist Mormon "God."
(originally posted under "Mormon Church Traces Black Priesthood Ban to Brigham Young," by Peggy Fletcher Stack, article first published in "Salt Lake Tribune" on 13 December 2013; see "Tribune" article and my comments above in reader commentary section, at: http://www.sltrib.com/pages/comments?cid=57241071)
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/14/2013 03:51AM by steve benson.
"I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our Church."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in "Look" magazine, 22 October 1963, p. 79)
Yeah, their place? Like at the back of the bus, or specific drinking fountains? Sad that there are so few people in the world God can only find racist prophets.
Great line Steve: "After all, it was these imperfect, racist Mormon 'prophets" who invented their imperfect, racist Mormon "God."
(Joseph Fielding Smith, quoted in "Look" magazine, 22 October 1963, p. 79)
Yeah, their place? Like at the back of the bus, or specific drinking fountains? Sad that there are so few people in the world God can only find racist prophets.
Great line Steve: "After all, it was these imperfect, racist Mormon 'prophets" who invented their imperfect, racist Mormon "God."
The Mormon church seems to think it has a magic wand like the ones used in "Men in Black" where the leadership can put on sun glasses and flash everyone else's memories away.
ETB taught that only the words of the CURRENT prophet matter, even if they totally contradict the previous prophet! He warned us not to pit one prophet against another as if it was OUR fault that they disagreed. We are the guilty victims.
That's how strong the arrogance and intimidation can be in Mormonism - and the damned thing is that it actually works!
Not only does it work, but after the wand "flashes" the members are told to go back to their toilet scrubbing - and they do it!
ETB taught that only the words of the CURRENT prophet matter, even if they totally contradict the previous prophet! He warned us not to pit one prophet against another as if it was OUR fault that they disagreed. We are the guilty victims.
That's how strong the arrogance and intimidation can be in Mormonism - and the damned thing is that it actually works!
Not only does it work, but after the wand "flashes" the members are told to go back to their toilet scrubbing - and they do it!
One of the major story lines of the Book of Mormon is that the wicked sons of Lehi had their skin turn dark due to their sins. Meanwhile gawd's favorites, the obedient Nephites, got to keep their white and delightsome skin. Clearly in gawd's most correct book on earth good = white and bad = dark. This theme is pervasive and endures throughout the entire narrative.
So following the logic from the recent "Don't blame gawd, it was Brigham who was the racist" article, the Nephite racism wouldn't have come from gawd either but instead from his hand picked racist prophets in ancient Jewish America. Oy Vey!!!!!
So here is where the cog dis starts to really create mental gymnastics. How does a faithful Mormon now answer these questions:
1-If the book of Mormon is the word of gawd and the most correct book on earth, how come so many ancient prophets were allowed to insert their misplaced racism into the golden reformed Egyptian tablets?
2-If the golden tablets had erroneous racist assertions, why didn’t Joseph Smith correct the text and reset it to gawd’s intent as he watch the Egyptian characters and their English meaning appear in his hat?
3-If gawd didn’t really want the racist teachings in his most correct book on earth, why didn’t he use his omnipotent super duper melKKKezadeKKK magic to fix it? Why did he allow every prophet thereafter until 1978 to reassert that the Laminites were less valiant in the pre-existence? Why did SWK think Native Americans would turn white if they accepted the gospel?
Is the Mormon gawd racist, incompetent or just completely detached and indifferent? Unfortunately Mormons have to pick one of the three to make the math work.
So following the logic from the recent "Don't blame gawd, it was Brigham who was the racist" article, the Nephite racism wouldn't have come from gawd either but instead from his hand picked racist prophets in ancient Jewish America. Oy Vey!!!!!
So here is where the cog dis starts to really create mental gymnastics. How does a faithful Mormon now answer these questions:
1-If the book of Mormon is the word of gawd and the most correct book on earth, how come so many ancient prophets were allowed to insert their misplaced racism into the golden reformed Egyptian tablets?
2-If the golden tablets had erroneous racist assertions, why didn’t Joseph Smith correct the text and reset it to gawd’s intent as he watch the Egyptian characters and their English meaning appear in his hat?
3-If gawd didn’t really want the racist teachings in his most correct book on earth, why didn’t he use his omnipotent super duper melKKKezadeKKK magic to fix it? Why did he allow every prophet thereafter until 1978 to reassert that the Laminites were less valiant in the pre-existence? Why did SWK think Native Americans would turn white if they accepted the gospel?
Is the Mormon gawd racist, incompetent or just completely detached and indifferent? Unfortunately Mormons have to pick one of the three to make the math work.
Makes me wish my parents had been Universalist.
We were always taught, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect." It went something like that.
One reason why I left the LDS Church is because I kept being taught that it is possible to reach perfection in this life, by being perfectly obedient to their Gospel.
I finally recognized the amount of pressure that this put me under and that it was unfair to myself to do that. So I left, long before I knew why the Church was not true.
So if now they're admitting that their prophets are not perfect, then what hope is there for the average Joe Mormon to reach that perfection?
This causes a problem for the average little Mormon who is trying their best to reach that goal.
One reason why I left the LDS Church is because I kept being taught that it is possible to reach perfection in this life, by being perfectly obedient to their Gospel.
I finally recognized the amount of pressure that this put me under and that it was unfair to myself to do that. So I left, long before I knew why the Church was not true.
So if now they're admitting that their prophets are not perfect, then what hope is there for the average Joe Mormon to reach that perfection?
This causes a problem for the average little Mormon who is trying their best to reach that goal.
....but (for them) thankfully as the cult values no internally consistent logic, LD$ Inc. will continue nicely --- even without their racist 'God'
The subject line, in part, was what got me to leave the church after four decades. The so called prophets may be imperfect, but he is not going to allow them to spew racism throughout his church as if it were doctrince. Once I found out about the magical rock and the hat, I next went to the racist teachings of the earlier prophets. I thought, how can a God, the everlasting God of heaven and earth, reveal racist teachings to a prophet OR allow a prophet to speak as a man if his 'manly' teachings are contradictory to the God's teachings. It defied mormon logic and mormon doctrine. Remember Nephi was told to chop of the head of Laban because God wouldn't suffer a nation to dwindle in false teachings...Hmmmn. Idiot mormons cannot have it both ways.
I would think since the MoGod seems so OT that he would blast the prophet to oblivion if the prophet talked as a man-- (blasphemy anyone?)
I wonder how the DNA migration patterns are messing with the heads of the TSCC and members. Joy-- we are all related. Joy we all started out with melanin-rich skin. Joy--the MoGod had nothing to do with it. (phenotype and genotype)
Whenever MoPo's hit me with "Whoever said prophets have to be perfect?", I respond with:
"Exactly right! Some people deny that David Koresh was a prophet because he was imperfect, but he was a _true_ prophet: he said he was, and how can we doubt it?"
I don't recall any attempt by my opponents to argue the point - even MoPo's seem to understand that excusing bad behavior in their "prophet" undercuts any attempt to condemn bad behavior in another "prophet".
There doesn't seem to be any shortage of phony "prophets" in North America - every one of them a social parasite averse to honest labor.
"Exactly right! Some people deny that David Koresh was a prophet because he was imperfect, but he was a _true_ prophet: he said he was, and how can we doubt it?"
I don't recall any attempt by my opponents to argue the point - even MoPo's seem to understand that excusing bad behavior in their "prophet" undercuts any attempt to condemn bad behavior in another "prophet".
There doesn't seem to be any shortage of phony "prophets" in North America - every one of them a social parasite averse to honest labor.
I'll allow a prophet to have bad behavior. I'll allow for human
weaknesses. But that's not what we're dealing with here. Here
we're dealing with the evil being in the prophecies themselves
and becoming part of the Church's doctrine and practices and
STAYING there for 126 year through 10 consecutive "prophets."
That's a LONG way away from "prophets are people too."
weaknesses. But that's not what we're dealing with here. Here
we're dealing with the evil being in the prophecies themselves
and becoming part of the Church's doctrine and practices and
STAYING there for 126 year through 10 consecutive "prophets."
That's a LONG way away from "prophets are people too."
baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll allow a prophet to have bad behavior. I'll allow for human weaknesses. But that's not what we're dealing with here. Here we're dealing with the evil being in the prophecies themselves and becoming part of the Church's doctrine and practices and STAYING there for 126 year through 10 consecutive "prophets."
> That's a LONG way away from "prophets are people too."
------------
Nicely compacted into a lethal point.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 03:59AM by zenjamin.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'll allow a prophet to have bad behavior. I'll allow for human weaknesses. But that's not what we're dealing with here. Here we're dealing with the evil being in the prophecies themselves and becoming part of the Church's doctrine and practices and STAYING there for 126 year through 10 consecutive "prophets."
> That's a LONG way away from "prophets are people too."
------------
Nicely compacted into a lethal point.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 03:59AM by zenjamin.
Are these quotes of JFS parody?!
"Let us reason together."
Or not. . .
This one's priceless:
"Why do not those who complain about the Negro and the priesthood also complain about the punishment which was given to this third of the spirits? They were denied even the blessings of bodies!"
Yeah, I've often wondered that myself. Maybe they don't complain about that third because they don't want the men in white suits to show up!
Let's start a civil rights campaign for spirits who were denied bodies! We'll send our petition directly to gawd. Should we address it c/o COB? Yeah, JFS, let's forget about real suffering humans and worry about spirit people.
"Let us reason together."
Or not. . .
This one's priceless:
"Why do not those who complain about the Negro and the priesthood also complain about the punishment which was given to this third of the spirits? They were denied even the blessings of bodies!"
Yeah, I've often wondered that myself. Maybe they don't complain about that third because they don't want the men in white suits to show up!
Let's start a civil rights campaign for spirits who were denied bodies! We'll send our petition directly to gawd. Should we address it c/o COB? Yeah, JFS, let's forget about real suffering humans and worry about spirit people.
Thanks Steve..........you are always so prepared with just what I am wondering about. I know you put tons of time into this and I appreciate it.
Baura started a thread/post which I responded to. Hers is also about this racist announcement. I hope everyone reads both threads, this one and that one too.
THIS IS MIND BOGGLING. TSCC has really stepped into some SHIT now if you ask me.
I have a quesion though....in the pre-existence some sinners got no bodies at all and some got black bodies. Which sins went with which punishment? GAWD, the Mo church causes so much cog dis it is amazing anyone can take any of it seriously. What a pathetic church.
When one steps back and actually looks at my question (as I have done), it is almost comical that anyone would actually take a quesion like this seriously. I am asking it (yes!) but I am doing it tongue in cheek...just to prove the point of the insanity.
One more thing for MRC - are these spirits black or white? Is part of the punishment of having no body having a dark spirit too? Or do they have no body but a white spirit?
Casper and other ghosts I have known are white. This is total discrimination and something should be done about it.
There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. "War in Heaven?" Isn't heaven a place where war doesn't exist? Is every statement ever made by the false prophets insane to a thinking person?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 04:09AM by enoughenoch19.
Baura started a thread/post which I responded to. Hers is also about this racist announcement. I hope everyone reads both threads, this one and that one too.
THIS IS MIND BOGGLING. TSCC has really stepped into some SHIT now if you ask me.
I have a quesion though....in the pre-existence some sinners got no bodies at all and some got black bodies. Which sins went with which punishment? GAWD, the Mo church causes so much cog dis it is amazing anyone can take any of it seriously. What a pathetic church.
When one steps back and actually looks at my question (as I have done), it is almost comical that anyone would actually take a quesion like this seriously. I am asking it (yes!) but I am doing it tongue in cheek...just to prove the point of the insanity.
One more thing for MRC - are these spirits black or white? Is part of the punishment of having no body having a dark spirit too? Or do they have no body but a white spirit?
Casper and other ghosts I have known are white. This is total discrimination and something should be done about it.
There were no neutrals in the war in Heaven. "War in Heaven?" Isn't heaven a place where war doesn't exist? Is every statement ever made by the false prophets insane to a thinking person?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 04:09AM by enoughenoch19.
Crud - during the past two days when I have talked to TBMs, it is not quite like they have been to TOTAL RECALL and had NEW memories implanted but they are ignoring (IGNORING!) the recent announcement by TSCC. TO me, this is mind boggling! Are they embarrassed or just too brainwashed to see the light? Not every TBM can have an IQ of 12, I just won't believe that. Some have good jobs and act smart in other ways.
Is having 126 of steady lies something that just can't be mentioned?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 04:21AM by enoughenoch19.
Is having 126 of steady lies something that just can't be mentioned?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 04:21AM by enoughenoch19.
I've always wondered about this. Why would there be such a thing as a war in heaven? Wasn't everyone living with God? If you are actually living with God, why would you question anything he says or does? We were told that our memories were erased upon birth, so that we would have to exercise our free agency. This tells me that we had complete knowledge before we were born. So why would we go to war?
How do Spirits conduct war? Do they have special weapons that are effective against spirit bodies? Electromagnetic anti-spirit-matter RPG's? Can you kill a spirit that you are having hand-to-hand combat with? Can you kill lots of spirits by dropping an S-bomb on them (spirit-bomb)? I'm really curious how this war in heaven actually happened? Did BY give any insight into this?
Also, at the conclusion of the war in heaven, the spirits had chosen sides and God meted out his punishments; cast out, black skin, and white skin. This would imply that no more spirits were created after this point. God ceased to have spirit sex I guess. If he continued to have spirit sex, then those spirits born/created after the war could see what their fate would be if they rejected the plan or sat on the fence. Why would they chose either of those? Or did he just stop creating spirits for this world and moved on to another one, creating one "farm-team" after another, trying to get the process down?
My brain is starting to hurt from thinking of all the implications that a war in heaven causes... But really, a war in heaven? Maybe, if that God was like the God in the Old Testament, then maybe I could understand why one would go to war. That God was a cosmic terrorist! I wouldn't want to spend eternity with him. That God must have just been experimenting with his planet. He wiped the slate clean except for Noah and family, because the chosen spirits from the war in heaven couldn't control themselves. Do-over. Then he continued to wipe out whole cities of people, turned women into pillars of salt, allowed a prophet to give up his virgin daughters to be raped to save his own skin, called down bears to eat a group of kids who were teasing another prophet, and the list goes on and on. Yep, sounds like a perfect "plan of salvation" to me...
Just my 2 cents on this whole mess...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 10:16AM by my2cents.
How do Spirits conduct war? Do they have special weapons that are effective against spirit bodies? Electromagnetic anti-spirit-matter RPG's? Can you kill a spirit that you are having hand-to-hand combat with? Can you kill lots of spirits by dropping an S-bomb on them (spirit-bomb)? I'm really curious how this war in heaven actually happened? Did BY give any insight into this?
Also, at the conclusion of the war in heaven, the spirits had chosen sides and God meted out his punishments; cast out, black skin, and white skin. This would imply that no more spirits were created after this point. God ceased to have spirit sex I guess. If he continued to have spirit sex, then those spirits born/created after the war could see what their fate would be if they rejected the plan or sat on the fence. Why would they chose either of those? Or did he just stop creating spirits for this world and moved on to another one, creating one "farm-team" after another, trying to get the process down?
My brain is starting to hurt from thinking of all the implications that a war in heaven causes... But really, a war in heaven? Maybe, if that God was like the God in the Old Testament, then maybe I could understand why one would go to war. That God was a cosmic terrorist! I wouldn't want to spend eternity with him. That God must have just been experimenting with his planet. He wiped the slate clean except for Noah and family, because the chosen spirits from the war in heaven couldn't control themselves. Do-over. Then he continued to wipe out whole cities of people, turned women into pillars of salt, allowed a prophet to give up his virgin daughters to be raped to save his own skin, called down bears to eat a group of kids who were teasing another prophet, and the list goes on and on. Yep, sounds like a perfect "plan of salvation" to me...
Just my 2 cents on this whole mess...
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 10:16AM by my2cents.
Magic swords and willful misuse of thee/thou/thine grammar are the only ways to harm a spirit.
Also something about handshakes.
Also something about handshakes.
I to wondered about the war in Heaven thing. Makes no sense.
If their is war then their is greed, hatred, lust, selfishness, etc, etc all things negative. How is that Heaven? Sounds like earth.
If their is war then their is greed, hatred, lust, selfishness, etc, etc all things negative. How is that Heaven? Sounds like earth.
Who would be stupid enough to attack an omnipotent being who parented and loved them for as long as they can remember? The 'war in heaven' is just more crap manufactured by the cult.
It is essentially the same rationale behind the "divine right of kings."
- All that happens is in God's hands.
- I was born King.
- It is therefore the will of God that I am King.
- Bow down before me for I am the Elect of God!
Inescapable logic, really. And with Mormonism we get the added comforting blend of spiritual superiority with the political, feudal class-consciousness of divine right. If Mormons re-wrote the New Testament, Jesus would be born to a fit, tan, blond, Herod who had a successful MLM business. Pre-mortal point scoring also fits in well with what me know of Smith's plans to have his son(s) succeed him, and the preoccupation of Mormons with genealogy and relationship to the high and mighty, and persistence references within the church to royalty and its trappings. (Is that still part of the vocabulary in the temple - being set apart as "kings and priests?")
It's just another example of how much LDS doctrine diverges from Christianity.
- All that happens is in God's hands.
- I was born King.
- It is therefore the will of God that I am King.
- Bow down before me for I am the Elect of God!
Inescapable logic, really. And with Mormonism we get the added comforting blend of spiritual superiority with the political, feudal class-consciousness of divine right. If Mormons re-wrote the New Testament, Jesus would be born to a fit, tan, blond, Herod who had a successful MLM business. Pre-mortal point scoring also fits in well with what me know of Smith's plans to have his son(s) succeed him, and the preoccupation of Mormons with genealogy and relationship to the high and mighty, and persistence references within the church to royalty and its trappings. (Is that still part of the vocabulary in the temple - being set apart as "kings and priests?")
It's just another example of how much LDS doctrine diverges from Christianity.
Remember, "The prophet will never lead the church astray," unless he is speaking as a man.
Then again, if a prophet can speak as a man, and it get confused with doctrine, then what use is it to have a prophet? Even better question, how many of the old testament prophets were just speaking as men?
Then again, if a prophet can speak as a man, and it get confused with doctrine, then what use is it to have a prophet? Even better question, how many of the old testament prophets were just speaking as men?
Even worse, when the Prophet BY said "this is God's law and it is eternal," he was actually speaking from his own bigotry and prejudice. Either he didn't know he was speaking as a man and not for God; or he knew, and he was lying. Either way, prophecy and stewardship seem pretty sketchy things to bet your life on. No one will sort out for you whether your prophet was speaking as a man or speaking for God until 100 years after you're dead. By then, I'd say the damage to your life has already been done. Trusting a prophet? Risky business.