I was watching videos of Grant Palmer speaking at Exmormon Foundation meetings. He said that the GAs are just now realizing things dont add up. I am just having a hard time believing that. There seems to be no way that they could be so blind. I mean, come on, they must have been flooded with literally millions of impossible doctrinal and historical issues before the internet was even invented. Is Palmer in delusion?

That's a very interesting theory. I think most of us on here have been under the impression that there is no way that any thinking person as high as the FP wouldn't be aware that there are things that are being hidden from the sheeple, and for good reason.

The idea that they really have been living in ignorance and are just now having to face the many realities of Joe Smith and his scam seem almost impossible. But what if it IS true? Wouldn't it be very interesting to watch GAs go through the questioning, the doubts, the realizations, that we have all gone through. If it were true that they are just seeing these things and really looking at them, then what would happen? Does that mean it's really possible that they would actually admit that JS was full of crap? Would they try to salvage the religion by trying to mainstream it and just try to hang on to as many sheep as possible? Is that what's already happening?

Interesting ideas to ponder...

not logged in (usually Duffy) Wrote:
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> Does that mean it's
> really possible that they would actually admit
> that JS was full of crap?

Seems the case with BY.

But whatever happens will be imperceptible to the true believers.

Just as the church marginalizes and isolates those who question, I must assume the case is even more so with GAs. How could you go into your boss and question? How would it look? For Palmer's mysterious 70, the situation would have been the same.

Remember; they are NOT a typical cross-section of society.

They are egomaniacal control-freaks.

Throw in the enormous amounts of $$$, and we have the answer.


They are well aware of the bogus religion.


It ain't like they are humble truth-seekers, like most of us...

Hans Mattsson mentioned in his podcast that he never received any kind of manual or prepared notes that goes over all the LDS scams and bullshit and how to counter or reconcile the bogus church history.

It seemed like the GA's are taught to never really get into a doctrine discussion with the hire ups. Just know your place, shut up, pray, pay and obey and now go get Adam to do it too.

Some do believe. I'm sure other have their doubts. But most are way too busy doing church business to read the scriptures and other sources for themselves and really analyze the data.

People capable of deep philosophical reflection and honesty self-select out of the advancement process long before they reach the level of a GA. That's why you'll never see a philsopher or theologian in the top fifteen. Mostly businessmen and lawyers who are dedicated to maintaining their own status and power.

They are the receipients of TSCC's financial support, they have life-time jobs, they receive the adoration of the masses. The benefits extend to their families who are given the inside track to leadership and financial rewards.

They manage to dismiss any doubt because the rationalize that it's the people need them and the church.

caedmon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> People capable of deep philosophical reflection
> and honesty self-select out of the advancement
> process long before they reach the level of a GA.
> That's why you'll never see a philsopher or
> theologian in the top fifteen. Mostly businessmen
> and lawyers who are dedicated to maintaining their
> own status and power.
>
> They are the receipients of TSCC's financial
> support, they have life-time jobs, they receive
> the adoration of the masses. The benefits extend
> to their families who are given the inside track
> to leadership and financial rewards.
>
> They manage to dismiss any doubt because the
> rationalize that it's the people need them and the
> church.

In the wider context that 80% of the US population believe in a religion, I think that also fosters that dismissal of doubt. Most people I know are very content to be religious just because that's what most people think good folks do.

I like the view that the more self-reflective opt out of the race to the top. Makes me feel good about my middling status. :)

I remember that during my missionary years and for years after that, I had assumed that most of the GAs had experienced the ministering of angels and that the "special witnesses" in the FP and the 12 had all spoken to the big man himself.

I can only wonder how many of them also thought that they would have seen some undeniable manifestation of the divine by the time they hit the Q12 and how they rationalized having no such visions.

You bring up a good point, but honestly, this happens all throughout your life as a mormon.

As an 8 year-old getting baptized and confirmed, you think you'll get an amazing spiritual experience, and you don't.

As a 12 year-old getting the priesthood, you think your life will change with the new power, but it doesn't.

When you get the Melchezedek priesthood at 18 you think your life will change, but it doesn't.

When you get your Endowment, you think it will be a huge new spiritual experience, but it isn't.

Then there's the path that most GAs go through (marriage, Bishop, Stake President, Mission Presidents, then second anointing). By the time anyone becomes a GA, they're probably just expecting nothing spectacular to happen.

Keep in mind that each of these "steps forward" in spirituality is framed as the planting of a seed if capability which will only spring forth if YOU have faith, obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel, are pure in heart, etc.

In other words, if the blessings promised fail, it's your fault.

With each benchmarked passed with no experience of acceptance of God, the boy/man begins faking it with the accompanying inner shame and self-loathing of being a complete fraud (imagining others are having "real" blessings).

While the truth is, everybody is faking it. EVERYBODY

So now view your GA in that light. Is he a true believer?

If he truly believes and has not been rewarded with visions, manifestations, room-filled-with-light, he has a choice. He can get up at testimony meeting and say some version of "I love you or, man..." or say nothing?

Of course this god in embryo, hair well parted in regular boys style, white-shirted, garmented, dark-suited with nary a glimpse of facial hair is NOT going to throw away the fawning of his family and friends as they say, "You are so inspiring...there's just a light about you...we always knew you were chosen for something special...blah-sickening-blah."

Instead, he assuages his conscience by alluding (with the beginning of a tear in the corner of the eye) to experiences in the temple "too sacred to discuss."

He hasn't lied and you are still kissing his ring.


Anagrammy

I think it's probably a mixture. Some believe, some don't. However, the ones that don't believe probably keep it quiet. It would ruin their lives if they said they didn't believe as an apostle. They'd lose so much, so I think the ones that don't believe just pretend they do.

Makes since. They get to go around and sell hope to others. They do get to care for others and do some good things. However, maybe the closet doubters try to find more ways to server than push mindless church programs down are throat to keep us busy from leaning the real truth.

But, But, Don't they eat chocolate every Monday meeting after, "Return and Report" where those traveling to the stakes of zion give an accounting of their weekend stewardship and turn their Credit Card receipts; or at lesst defer and let the 6 senior demented, elected ones eat their favorite chocolate first? Sorry, don't have the reference (Geeez, I followed a burning in my bosom, looked via google, and the search mentioned how general authorities eat their Reese's peanut butter cups). I remember hearing a in a general conference emotional moment or reading it in an Ensign and thought it was Godiva or as least Sees candy. I could not restrain myself from eating my favorite dark chocolate caramel before someone else put their bony fingers in the box before me.

The chocolates were: Cummings Chocolate people

I remember this story. So I did a Google search for "L. Tom Perry Chocolate" and found the link.

Here's the link: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon352.htm



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2013 02:07PM by jiminycricket.

The cojcolds vast wealth defines who they are. They can afford to buy many things, including people's silence and obedience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2013 07:37AM by canadianfriend.

I think it's a mix. Some believe, some don't, and some are unsure. Watch for the obvious signs of personal wealth to grow, and for even more large investments. As fewer f the bastards believe, they will concentrate on increasing personal wealth, and buying loyalty.

Don't you think that everyday they wake up feeling some kind of guilt before they take their pills.

They know.

And for me it took a long long time to accept that, given how much I'd pedastalized them during my TBM years.

I have a friend who worked for the LD$ church and rubbed shoulders with Spencer Kimball and his regime. He was in the church financial dept in some accounting capacity, and he'd ready had the infamous "second anointing" when he came out as a gay man and left the church.

I asked my friend if the GAs he knew really believed the church was true. He rolled his eyes and said, "of course not."

Even after I heard this, I found it difficult to believe that so many educated and "honest" men were lying. But there's really no other conclusion to draw, than that they are lying.

In my own personal experience, they absolutely believe that it's true. This is based on a small sample size, but the ones I've known have no doubt that it's true. (edit: meaning no doubt that they believe in Mormonism).

I wondered the same thing when I first started seriously studying the historical roots of Mormonism. I wondered how anyone could believe this stuff, much of which I had never heard of, but can be verified as factual. I questioned whether the GAs, who surely knew about these things, could actually believe.

In the communication I've had with GAs since then, including one that I've known for 20+ years, there is no doubt the ones I've communicated with believe wholeheartedly. Such is the power of "emotion".

They believe that they've had a spiritual witness that confirmed absolute truth and that witness trumps EVERYTHING else. There's really nothing that could convince them otherwise. You could present a letter written by Joseph Smith himself saying it's all a fraud and they still wouldn't believe it.

To some people, evidence doesn't matter. As strange as that sounds and as foreign of a concept as it is to me, that's how they think.

Still, with all of the evidence out there, it wouldn't surprise me if there are some who DO care about evidence that, at a minimum, realize there are serious issues with the whole thing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/21/2013 12:04PM by xtbm.

Do these believe?

Take a close look at each face one by one.
http://ldsmediatalk.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/lds-general-authority-chart-oct-20131.jpg

Have any of these led an authentic life?

"By the time you are forty, you get the face you deserve."
- JTM

I personally think they have faked themselves into believing. They may have occasional doubts, but they know that if they voice them, they won't be in the GA circle anymore, so they succumb to peer pressure and keep up the façade. And like someone else said, some of their "witnesses to Jesus" were simply just lameass faith promoting stories that have happened to thousands of other members, nothing special at all.

The GA's know everything we know. They know the whole thing is full of holes, so . . .

If they are like my parents, they can discount it all as unimportant and only their feeling matter because "who are we to question the mysterious ways of God?"

Or . . .they can go along for the perks. For a certain personality that needs that much adulation and reverence, craves the feeling of an intense superiority, I think being a GA is the most seductive drug out there.

I am convinced they believe completely.

My example is my brother. He is an institute director and a
dyed-in-the-wool, True-blue believing Mormon.

However he knows all the problems because I have presented them
to him. It doesn't bother him in the slightest because he has a
TESTIMONY.

What is a TESTIMONY? I've decided that a TESTIMONY is a
decision that one makes to believe no matter what. Once you've
decided to believe, no matter what, then any evidence that is
presented has no impact on your belief. I think that's how it
is with the GAs. They have made the decision, long ago, to
believe no matter what.