As a TBM I always felt that other churches attacked the Mormon church because they were 1) jealous and 2) misled.

I had an in-law that was a Baptist minister and he had an all night debate with me about the evils of Mormonism. The problem was he took a doctrinal stance in his efforts. By that I mean he kept showing me references in the Bible that contradicted Mormon beliefs and practices. He got nowhere with me because I believed we had a modern day prophet that clarified what the Bible meant and corrected the parts that were mistranslated. From my perspective there was nothing he could say to get through to me.

As an atheist I now see how he was asking me to replace my misplaced beliefs in Mormonism with another set of misplaced beliefs. He was standing in quicksand and asking me to take his hand to be rescued. Even now I look back and see that nothing another religion could have told me about Mormonism could have ever persuaded me to leave.

What got me out of Mormonism was pure facts. Most ministers don't have the facts about Mormonism's history because they see it as wrong from a faith based perspective and not a truth perspective. Since they never were Mormon they never studied or were taught the teachings in depth enough to know where most Mormons are deceived. Neither do they understand the psychological pull of Mormonism.

The facts are that Joseph Smith was a liar. It doesn't matter that he never went to divinity school or put his own spin on the Bible. He lied, cheated, and committed adultery and lied about it. He illegally started a bank and lost all the money in it. It doesn't matter whether or not God told him to do it. The fact is that he broke the law. He had sex with other women than his wife, some having husbands, and lied to his own wife and the entire church. He was a religious rock star among his followers and got away with taking huge sexual advantage of women. He used threats, intimidation, and destruction to hide his lies and deceits. He was basically a horror of a man. But he oozed charm and charisma. He had so much of it, in fact, that even men adored him and hung on his every word. Telling his followers that his religion is not Christian means nothing. Joseph Smith had "IT".

So, for another religion to try and discredit Joseph Smith by using religious criteria is like telling people to stop listening to the Beetles because their music is outside the mainstream of classical structures. It doesn't matter. It's a different genre. Mormonism isn't false because it's different. It's false because its foundation is rotten to the core. It's founder was rotten. It's functioning is rotten. And it's leaders, to this day, perpetuate the lies and cover-ups that keep right thinking individuals in the haze.

But truth and facts will only save those who haven't fallen for the fantasy. If you want the lies to be true badly enough you can excuse anything and everything (lies, adultery, stealing, abuse) by merely stating that it is all part of God's plan and He works in mysterious ways. Isn't that what all religions preach? So if you are from another religion and you want to expose Mormonism, be careful. The mysticism of your faith may not be strong enough to replace the mysticism of Mormonism no matter how obviously less damaging yours is.

Your frustration with TBMs and believers in other churches is understandable- just look at the facts and walk away from any of it. However, other churches can discredit Mormonism, perhaps more often than you may realize.

Occasionally I've read posts on this board re the right hemisphere of the brain, the emotional or believing side, is the religion "center" vs the left hemisphere or rational function side, although this is grossly over simplified. While the right hemisphere exerts more control over intangibles like feelings, emotions 'occur' in both sides of the brain. Perhaps someone with knowledge of how this works could explain it better.

What's germane here is that for many, most?, religion is emotional; pure facts and rationalality aren't sufficient to deconstruct deep seated beliefs *in most people*. Look at the mormon mantras, "I know the church is true," "I know Joseph Smith is the prophet," among others, "know" is meant to cement the emotional attachment with pseudo-rational "knowing" or knowledge. When other churches discredit mormonism with scriptures, as your Baptist relative attempted to do, (and it's easy really), the same process occurs- not the rational or factual appeal to emotions, but rather systematic or logical (bear with me a second) emotions that appeal through the left to the right side of the brain where "faith" resides primarily. Again, this is way over simplified.

Look at your own reaction to learning "JS was a liar", and as an extension, tscc had lied to you- probably you were angry. You might have felt "an earthquake under my (your) feet," and these are emotional reactions. Whatever other emotions you felt, apparently they were enough to override your attachment to tscc. I started there- I think everyone who leaves does- "I've been lied to" becomes "I've been lied to deliberately."

So, yeah, not only is it possible to deconstruct mormonism through scriptures, but that constructed approach does work for some people. Again, all exmormons have some things in common- a disbelief in JS and his teachings and the ability to reason a way out from there. How we arrive at that point and the consequesnces are very individual. How successful Biblical deconstruction is on typical TBMs though is a good question. No doubts though, the rest of American Christianity, (face it, mormonism is an American church), is well insulating itself from mormon conversion through doctrinal/scriptural stance. You mentioned "Baptist", and I'm going to assume you meant a SBC pastor. Southern Baptists supported Romney but seem to be the most active and vocal in denouncing tscc. Without huge doctrinal shifts within mormonism, I don't see those voices quieting.

An aside, 32 years ago, I wrote a thesis examining why Martin Luther was able to spark the simmering protestant reformation, and die in his bed rather than literally being burned alive, as previous and some subsequent reformers were. (You can yawn on that one as it's been done, done and done.) Many factors, but the one that earned points for me was his logical appeal through scriptures to the emotions of faith. It wasn't sufficient for him to say 'the church (at the time) is bad and its doctrines are man made', but rather his arguement started as 'the church has strayed, here's why, and it needs to fix itself.' And by nailing his assertions to the door of a cathedral on the night before what then was one of the busiest church days of the year, he took the agruement to on-the-street believers, out of the perview of the clergy and church leaders. Thanks to the new effectiveness of the printing press, more than Wittenberg Germans were reading his theses in what was then short time. Sub 'internet' for 'printing press.' From my perspective, tscc finds itself in the same position as the Roman church was then. It will change, in more substantial ways than hanging BY with its racism. The credible insider as reformer would accelerate this.

Back up even further. It's not just a case of deciding the church strayed and needs to be fixed. It's the premises that need proof: that Jesus was a deity and the Bible is what it claims to be.

So, Mormons go around saying "I know this and that is true." Christians will go around saying they know the Bible is the Word and that Jesus lives. It's the same kind of claim.

I think I was more angry when I read the Bible the first time after Mormonism. I assumed it was "true" and that Mormons had not understood it correctly. So, I wiped the slate clean of all bias and read the Bible without Mormon lenses. I realized that scriptures are not written for logic or facts. The common threads of world mythology are in the Bible. It's the culture's mythology.

So, other churches can be discredited as easily as Mormonism. It's just a matter of degree but the process is the same.

I might add that compared to some of the Bible characters, JS doesn't seem so bad. The Christian "ditty" (as you call it) to handle Mormons is just as ridiculous since they have no more right to make things up than the Mormons.

When it comes to the "credible inside reformer" who works within the religion to change it, I agree with you that Mormonism will likely succumb to the reformers over time.

The question people have to ask is if the premises which were not factual in the first place deserve to be reformed. If BS strays into other BS, it's just a matter of preference if a reformer likes one smell of BS more than another.

dagny Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The Christian
> "ditty" (as you call it) to handle Mormons is just
> as ridiculous since they have no more right to
> make things up than the Mormons.

Yeah, I think when it's on your front doorstep unsolicited, ya do have the right.

for the same reason Christianity, Islam, and a lot of other religions are false: BECAUSE THAT SHIT NEVER HAPPENED. :)

Yes! Finally, someone who gets it! :)

The problem now is that Mormonism cannot even provide a fun community experience.

They have cut all expenses down to the bone and, for a rich church, they have nothing to offer.

Well, maybe some masochists will join ever so often but that's about it.

Yep on the "that sh!t never happened" line. The atheists are right.

Also, good point about TSCC not even being a fun/affirming social outlet--the other reason people go to church.

In my experience, other churches have a hard time discrediting Mormonism & TSCC, because they just make up or repeat phony lies about the cult, instead of discrediting the facts.

indeed.
I sometimes comment on blogs, youtube, etc and you often see arguments which any mormon can disprove in a heartbeat

example
[Smith] invented a new religion so that he could have sex with multiple partners. He made that because "muh polygamy" was written on the gold(and silver) rock in a hat in america that somehow was covered in Egyptian hieroglyphs that he found in the woods

and this sort of misinformation just serves to 'prove' to the TBM that anyone who argues againt the church is simply spreading 'anti-mormon' propaganda

I spent about 25 years after Mormonism experimenting, attending, and even joining many types of churches, including non-Christian faiths. The list is long.

In all that time, I never once heard a negative word about Mormons, or even mention of their name -- at the pulpit, or even in a casual setting. In fact I've never attended a church where another religion was denigrated at a pulpit.

But I did hear the Catholic church disparaged in Sacrament Meeting -- and I was disappointed, being a convert into Mormonism from Catholicism with Catholic family members at home.

I am sure there are some pastors or clergy in churches who speak up against Mormons, but I venture it is not too often and it is more in a smaller setting, among friends or just a few congregants in a small group.

But for the most part, churches are in the business of taking care of themselves and not giving two figs about the LDS church.

Many other churches actively participate in interfaith councils, make friends with rabbis, pastors, priests in their community, and join together to do good in the community via soup kitchens, fundraisers for various worthy causes.

The Mormon church reminds me of North Korea in terms of isolationism.

They are equally as paranoid as Kim Jong-Un -- why? Because they bash other churches and they cannot believe that other churches have a moral conscience.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/15/2013 03:54PM by Senoritalamanita.

Mainstream churches aren't threatened by tscc, and they mostly may be indifferent to it, but they aren't oblivious. The pastor in the original post had arguements ready. A contemporary Christian music radio station has run this ad on-air for months, "send for the free pamphlet "Why the book of mormon is wrong." I have to admit that even after being out of tscc for decades, this bothers me a little. Our very traditional denomination has a little on-line ditty about "How to handle Mormon missionaries at your door." Get into fundamentalist churches and it isn't unusual to hear the occasional preaching on Smith as an example of a false prophet and mormonism as, yep, non- or anti-Christian. You have to know this !@#$ comes from somewhere. Could be these activities are in response to the lowering of missionary age and consequent increase in the number of missionaries, but the purpose still seems to insulate the members of churches to "the milk."

That fundie pastor was an ass and his behavior was reprehensible for bashing another church during a church service. You'd think that worship service was for worshipping.

I attended Pentecostal and 4-Square Churches. I left with a bad taste after being forced to speak in tongues. In fact the experience traumatized me.

There is a tremendous pressure in these fundie churches to admit to being "Born Again."

I refused to do it. To me it's just as bogus as saying my church is "True".

"I attended Pentecostal and 4-Square Churches. I left with a bad taste after being forced to speak in tongues. In fact the experience traumatized me."

I think that would traumatize me as well. How awful!

I go to one or maybe two religious services a year. Sometimes when you do community service it is tied to those organizations and it is the polite thing to do.

The majority of the services I go to focus on Mormonism. That might be because I'm in SLC and people focus on Mormons here more than other places, I don't know. Nonetheless, these preachers love to use Mormonism as material for their speeches. It is amusing more than anything.

It is weird we've had different experiences. I wonder what a normal church service is like outside of SLC.

That is truly sad. I am sorry to hear this is going on in SLC Christian faiths.

Hardly worth the effort.

Mormons no longer pose a threat to their "flocks," and are busily discrediting themselves.



B.Y. who?

Well said Cali Sally!

Ditto.

It's funny that these Christian churches try to discredit mormonism when their own beliefs are equally as stupid. The miraculous claims contained in their little book of fairy tales crumbles just as easily as any mormon scripture when any level of scientific scrutiny is applied. They have no leg on which to stand.

I do not agree that Christianity falls so easily. But I do agree that the attackers from the Christian right are unable to comprehend exactly where the errors are in moism. Part of this is because most of the BoM is not contrary to their doctrines. Few know anything beyond that and, of course, things such as Satan being a brother of Christ. The most potent attacks are by those who KNOW and have experienced moism in their lives and families. We know what is wrong from beginning to end and where doctrines lead to harm.