Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
A couple of days ago, my younger brother and sister-in-law came down from Mesa, AZ, to visit me two hours away. While they were here, my sister-in-law and I got in a discussion about tithing. She told me that my brother and her argue about paying it, and that she's worried about blessings that they are not getting because they are not full tithe payers. (I tried act supportive and don't think she saw me roll my eyes about so-called "blessings"). Then she tells me that she's afraid my brother will leave her if he doesn't take her to the temple, to which I told her matter-of-factly that he wasn't going to leave her because he and I had talked about it. (Sidenote: When they first got married, I tried to get him to leave her because I didn't think they were right together. I have since come to accept her as my sister-in-law).
Then she told me that the reason my brother didn't want to go to the temple was because the one and only time they did go (on their wedding day), he came out and told her that he was afraid he had just joined a cult. I also knew about this because two days before, my brother and I had chatted about this very thing.
So, I talked to my sister-in-law about tithing and brought D&C 119:3-5 up and had her read it out loud to me about tithing being one-tenth of a person's interest annually. Then we had a talk about what interest means. She said she had a lot to think about.
A few days after they got home, I had the same talk with my brother about tithing. He told me that the talk with his wife hadn't helped because she came home and immediately told him that they needed to figure out how to pay a full tithe. (I need to mention that they have been having the church pay their rent every other month because of how financially strapped they are and I warned them that the church would soon put a stop to this).
I then sent my brother three texts dealing with tithing: the first one linked him to was this one:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html
The second one linked him to an exmormon discussion about tithing (and I told him that I would understand if he didn't read it because it is an ex-mormon site).
The final text was http://mormonthink.com/tithing.htm and told him that this was the best of the three websites to look at because it gave the most "honest" view of tithing and the articles were written by LDS people (both former and current)who look at all of the issues of the church.
I haven't heard back from him (he works nights) and I'm afraid he's going to just brush me off again. I forgot to mention that I let both of them read my exit story while they were here, and they both said it was "interesting" and then brushed it off like nothing had happened. BTW they met at the same college I talked about in my story.
So, here's my question to the board:
1. Do you think I came on too strong with the links and the biblical passages for their TBM minds?
I also brought up stuff about JS and polyandry to my sister-in-law and (while I could tell her head was spinning) she asked me where I was getting my information from. I told her the church itself. She told me that the RLDS church had documents that claimed to be from JS and Emma Smith, but that they were forgeries.
2. Has anyone ever heard of this, or is she just making up things to try and distance herself from it possibly being true?
I am VERY close to my little brother (as in I helped raise him after our elder brother died and our parents were grieving).
3. Do you think that any of this will damage our relationship?
Then she told me that the reason my brother didn't want to go to the temple was because the one and only time they did go (on their wedding day), he came out and told her that he was afraid he had just joined a cult. I also knew about this because two days before, my brother and I had chatted about this very thing.
So, I talked to my sister-in-law about tithing and brought D&C 119:3-5 up and had her read it out loud to me about tithing being one-tenth of a person's interest annually. Then we had a talk about what interest means. She said she had a lot to think about.
A few days after they got home, I had the same talk with my brother about tithing. He told me that the talk with his wife hadn't helped because she came home and immediately told him that they needed to figure out how to pay a full tithe. (I need to mention that they have been having the church pay their rent every other month because of how financially strapped they are and I warned them that the church would soon put a stop to this).
I then sent my brother three texts dealing with tithing: the first one linked him to was this one:
http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2012/12/are-we-paying-too-much-tithing.html
The second one linked him to an exmormon discussion about tithing (and I told him that I would understand if he didn't read it because it is an ex-mormon site).
The final text was http://mormonthink.com/tithing.htm and told him that this was the best of the three websites to look at because it gave the most "honest" view of tithing and the articles were written by LDS people (both former and current)who look at all of the issues of the church.
I haven't heard back from him (he works nights) and I'm afraid he's going to just brush me off again. I forgot to mention that I let both of them read my exit story while they were here, and they both said it was "interesting" and then brushed it off like nothing had happened. BTW they met at the same college I talked about in my story.
So, here's my question to the board:
1. Do you think I came on too strong with the links and the biblical passages for their TBM minds?
I also brought up stuff about JS and polyandry to my sister-in-law and (while I could tell her head was spinning) she asked me where I was getting my information from. I told her the church itself. She told me that the RLDS church had documents that claimed to be from JS and Emma Smith, but that they were forgeries.
2. Has anyone ever heard of this, or is she just making up things to try and distance herself from it possibly being true?
I am VERY close to my little brother (as in I helped raise him after our elder brother died and our parents were grieving).
3. Do you think that any of this will damage our relationship?
Mark Hofmann, a Member of the LDS Church, and RM, but a secret atheist bend on damaging the Church by forging documents, forged a document that had Joseph Smith "bless" his son, Joseph Smith III, to be his successor. The LDS Church bought this from Hofmann, secretly, in order to hide it, but Hofmann leaked it's existence by sending photocopies of the letter to various journalists in Utah. The LDS Church then pretended it was "no big deal" and gave the blessing to the RLDS Church in exchange for an original Book of Commandments worth about 50K. The RLDS Church published the "Blessing" (later proved to be a forgery) in their 1984 edition of their Doctrine and Covenants--in the Appendix).
Of course, years later, Hofmann murdered two people, and later was arrested and confessed to forging hundreds of documents, including the "Blessing" letter. The LDS Church returned the Book of Commandments to the RLDS Church. In later editions of its Doctrine & Covenants, of course, the "Blessing" was removed, without comment. The RLDS Church has no other "forgeries" by Joseph Smith or Emma Hale.
Of course, years later, Hofmann murdered two people, and later was arrested and confessed to forging hundreds of documents, including the "Blessing" letter. The LDS Church returned the Book of Commandments to the RLDS Church. In later editions of its Doctrine & Covenants, of course, the "Blessing" was removed, without comment. The RLDS Church has no other "forgeries" by Joseph Smith or Emma Hale.
I wondered if this is what my sister-in-law was talking about. While I've heard about that story, I'm not very familiar with it. I know there's a book written about it. Anyone have any links?
NoMoreFenceSitting,
There are four good books on the Mark Hoffman Forgery Murders. The best of the first three on my list is "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders" by Linda Sillitoe and Allen Roberts, who were reporters covering the events at the time.
More sensational and somewhat less dependable is "The Mormon Murders" By Naifeh and White.
Jerald and Sandra Tanner had the good sense to suspect something was not right about Hoffman, and their side of the story is told in "Tracking the White Salamader."
I have not read "Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hoffman Case" by Richard Turley, but it came out some time after all the dust had cleared and a lot of folks feel it's the most complete telling of the affair.
You may be familiar with the photo showing Spencer Kimball and a few of the Brethren standing around a table with Hoffman showing them one of the rare revelations he claimed to have found, and which the Church scrambled to purchase. I'm sure you can find it by googling Mark Hoffman and Spencer Kimball.
You would think that after Hoffman was exposed as a forger and a murderer, that photo would cause many members to wonder why Kimball did not seem to have the mantle of a prophet with him which should have enabled him to recognize he was in the presence of the devil. But few members seem to have considered that.
There are four good books on the Mark Hoffman Forgery Murders. The best of the first three on my list is "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon Forgery Murders" by Linda Sillitoe and Allen Roberts, who were reporters covering the events at the time.
More sensational and somewhat less dependable is "The Mormon Murders" By Naifeh and White.
Jerald and Sandra Tanner had the good sense to suspect something was not right about Hoffman, and their side of the story is told in "Tracking the White Salamader."
I have not read "Victims: The LDS Church and the Mark Hoffman Case" by Richard Turley, but it came out some time after all the dust had cleared and a lot of folks feel it's the most complete telling of the affair.
You may be familiar with the photo showing Spencer Kimball and a few of the Brethren standing around a table with Hoffman showing them one of the rare revelations he claimed to have found, and which the Church scrambled to purchase. I'm sure you can find it by googling Mark Hoffman and Spencer Kimball.
You would think that after Hoffman was exposed as a forger and a murderer, that photo would cause many members to wonder why Kimball did not seem to have the mantle of a prophet with him which should have enabled him to recognize he was in the presence of the devil. But few members seem to have considered that.
rockwaterman1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoMoreFenceSitting,
>
> There are four good books on the Mark Hoffman
> Forgery Murders. The best of the first three on my
> list is "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon
> Forgery Murders" by Linda Sillitoe and Allen
> Roberts, who were reporters covering the events at
> the time.
I've heard of this book and am now putting it on my reading list!
>
> More sensational and somewhat less dependable is
> "The Mormon Murders" By Naifeh and White.
I'll check it out.
>
> Jerald and Sandra Tanner had the good sense to
> suspect something was not right about Hoffman, and
> their side of the story is told in "Tracking the
> White Salamader."
I've read Jerald and Sandra Tanner's works which mentioned Mark Hoffman and the church's dealing with him, but I didn't know that they had written a book about their side of the story. This should be interesting to read.
>
> I have not read "Victims: The LDS Church and the
> Mark Hoffman Case" by Richard Turley, but it came
> out some time after all the dust had cleared and a
> lot of folks feel it's the most complete telling
> of the affair.
Me either. I'm also going to check this one out.
>
> You may be familiar with the photo showing Spencer
> Kimball and a few of the Brethren standing around
> a table with Hoffman showing them one of the rare
> revelations he claimed to have found, and which
> the Church scrambled to purchase. I'm sure you can
> find it by googling Mark Hoffman and Spencer
> Kimball.
I'm VERY familiar with the picture.
>
> You would think that after Hoffman was exposed as
> a forger and a murderer, that photo would cause
> many members to wonder why Kimball did not seem to
> have the mantle of a prophet with him which should
> have enabled him to recognize he was in the
> presence of the devil. But few members seem to
> have considered that.
I grew up in this time period and never heard about it. However, I mentioned it to my TBM mom and asked this very same thing and she said she had read about it, but it didn't change her testimony of the church. After I read a little bit about the case earlier this year, I couldn't help but question why people still seemed to think that he was a prophet. I guess those whose minds won't let them believe that the church is anything other than true are better able to put this on their shelf and leave it there. If I were still a questioning mormon, my shelf would at least have cracks in it after reading about this d*&%ing piece of evidence against the church.
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoMoreFenceSitting,
>
> There are four good books on the Mark Hoffman
> Forgery Murders. The best of the first three on my
> list is "Salamander: The Story of the Mormon
> Forgery Murders" by Linda Sillitoe and Allen
> Roberts, who were reporters covering the events at
> the time.
I've heard of this book and am now putting it on my reading list!
>
> More sensational and somewhat less dependable is
> "The Mormon Murders" By Naifeh and White.
I'll check it out.
>
> Jerald and Sandra Tanner had the good sense to
> suspect something was not right about Hoffman, and
> their side of the story is told in "Tracking the
> White Salamader."
I've read Jerald and Sandra Tanner's works which mentioned Mark Hoffman and the church's dealing with him, but I didn't know that they had written a book about their side of the story. This should be interesting to read.
>
> I have not read "Victims: The LDS Church and the
> Mark Hoffman Case" by Richard Turley, but it came
> out some time after all the dust had cleared and a
> lot of folks feel it's the most complete telling
> of the affair.
Me either. I'm also going to check this one out.
>
> You may be familiar with the photo showing Spencer
> Kimball and a few of the Brethren standing around
> a table with Hoffman showing them one of the rare
> revelations he claimed to have found, and which
> the Church scrambled to purchase. I'm sure you can
> find it by googling Mark Hoffman and Spencer
> Kimball.
I'm VERY familiar with the picture.
>
> You would think that after Hoffman was exposed as
> a forger and a murderer, that photo would cause
> many members to wonder why Kimball did not seem to
> have the mantle of a prophet with him which should
> have enabled him to recognize he was in the
> presence of the devil. But few members seem to
> have considered that.
I grew up in this time period and never heard about it. However, I mentioned it to my TBM mom and asked this very same thing and she said she had read about it, but it didn't change her testimony of the church. After I read a little bit about the case earlier this year, I couldn't help but question why people still seemed to think that he was a prophet. I guess those whose minds won't let them believe that the church is anything other than true are better able to put this on their shelf and leave it there. If I were still a questioning mormon, my shelf would at least have cracks in it after reading about this d*&%ing piece of evidence against the church.
"The Poet and the Murderer: A True Story of Literary Crime and the Art of Forgery" by Simon Worrall
CincinnatusC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Poet and the Murderer: A True Story of
> Literary Crime and the Art of Forgery" by Simon
> Worrall
Another one I'll have to read. Thanks!
-------------------------------------------------------
> "The Poet and the Murderer: A True Story of
> Literary Crime and the Art of Forgery" by Simon
> Worrall
Another one I'll have to read. Thanks!
your sister is probably just spouting the traditional utah mormon view (pre 1985ish) that has been handed down from the time of brigham young that all things reorganized are from the devil because supposedly Emma was an evil woman who went to the lowest depths of hell for her refusal to consecrate everything to brother brigahm. and subsequently she supposedly tampered with the documents that were left in Nauvoo. Of course that was all found to be bunk.
poopstone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> your sister is probably just spouting the
> traditional utah mormon view (pre 1985ish) that
> has been handed down from the time of brigham
> young that all things reorganized are from the
> devil because supposedly Emma was an evil woman
> who went to the lowest depths of hell for her
> refusal to consecrate everything to brother
> brigahm. and subsequently she supposedly tampered
> with the documents that were left in Nauvoo. Of
> course that was all found to be bunk.
This is probably where she got it from. When she said that to me, I'll admit it threw me for a loop and I didn't have a response for her. This is really what I wanted to know. I had no idea that this had been a pre-1985 mormon view. She must have heard it from her granparents since she would have just been a baby when this idea was going around.
-------------------------------------------------------
> your sister is probably just spouting the
> traditional utah mormon view (pre 1985ish) that
> has been handed down from the time of brigham
> young that all things reorganized are from the
> devil because supposedly Emma was an evil woman
> who went to the lowest depths of hell for her
> refusal to consecrate everything to brother
> brigahm. and subsequently she supposedly tampered
> with the documents that were left in Nauvoo. Of
> course that was all found to be bunk.
This is probably where she got it from. When she said that to me, I'll admit it threw me for a loop and I didn't have a response for her. This is really what I wanted to know. I had no idea that this had been a pre-1985 mormon view. She must have heard it from her granparents since she would have just been a baby when this idea was going around.
You are stirring up a sensitive area (money) that they were already arguing about. I would let it rest.
summer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are stirring up a sensitive area (money) that
> they were already arguing about. I would let it
> rest.
Yeah. Unfortunately, it's been a touchy subject with them throughout their marriage--as they have asked nearly every member of her family and mine for money to pay rent. I don't ever bring it up to them, but I have put my two cents in every time they bring it up. I guess I'll have to bite my tongue whenever I hear about it again.
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are stirring up a sensitive area (money) that
> they were already arguing about. I would let it
> rest.
Yeah. Unfortunately, it's been a touchy subject with them throughout their marriage--as they have asked nearly every member of her family and mine for money to pay rent. I don't ever bring it up to them, but I have put my two cents in every time they bring it up. I guess I'll have to bite my tongue whenever I hear about it again.
I think you have shown you care about their situation and you have planted some seeds. I, too, think it wise to let them have some alone time for awhile because they seem to be a financial bind that is better sorted out between them, or even with some professional assistance.
Never a bad idea to reiterate to both of them that you care and love them.
Never a bad idea to reiterate to both of them that you care and love them.
presleynfactsrock Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have shown you care about their
> situation and you have planted some seeds. I,
> too, think it wise to let them have some alone
> time for awhile because they seem to be a
> financial bind that is better sorted out between
> them, or even with some professional assistance.
>
> Never a bad idea to reiterate to both of them that
> you care and love them.
I've talked to my brother twice since they left and he hasn't brought it up, so I just act as though our conversation never happened. I AM hoping that one day he will be courageous enough to follow his doubting heart and just do what he wants to do, but I don't think it will ever happen because of how much he just wants to please his wife. Hopefully, the seeds will sprout on their own.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you have shown you care about their
> situation and you have planted some seeds. I,
> too, think it wise to let them have some alone
> time for awhile because they seem to be a
> financial bind that is better sorted out between
> them, or even with some professional assistance.
>
> Never a bad idea to reiterate to both of them that
> you care and love them.
I've talked to my brother twice since they left and he hasn't brought it up, so I just act as though our conversation never happened. I AM hoping that one day he will be courageous enough to follow his doubting heart and just do what he wants to do, but I don't think it will ever happen because of how much he just wants to please his wife. Hopefully, the seeds will sprout on their own.
I grew up RLDS and their tithing policy (at that time, anyway--1960s and 1970s) was that the proper tithe was ten percent of a person's "increase" -- not the total income, but the amount left over after all basic expenses for housing, food, and clothing were met. Does the LDS church have a similar policy?
I left the RLDS church in 1985 and while my dad is still an elder, we don't really talk about church policy that much or I would ask him if the policy has changed.
I left the RLDS church in 1985 and while my dad is still an elder, we don't really talk about church policy that much or I would ask him if the policy has changed.
formerRLDS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grew up RLDS and their tithing policy (at that
> time, anyway--1960s and 1970s) was that the proper
> tithe was ten percent of a person's "increase" --
> not the total income, but the amount left over
> after all basic expenses for housing, food, and
> clothing were met. Does the LDS church have a
> similar policy?
I'm only aware that the LDS church says to give ten percent of their income. I believe (though I'm not 100 percent sure) that this matter was changed in June of 1980 by by then President Marion G. Romney during a talk about tithing. Here's the link: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/06/concerning-tithing
Notice it says, "Tithing is not a free-will offering; it is a debt, payment of which brings great blessings."
However, when I searched for tithing on the lds.org website, this was the statement: "To tithe is to freely give one-tenth of one's income annually to the Lord through His Church."
Here's the link: http://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng
So, is it a debt for blessings or is it freely given?
Notice also that both say income annually, not interest.
>
> I left the RLDS church in 1985 and while my dad is
> still an elder, we don't really talk about church
> policy that much or I would ask him if the policy
> has changed.
I am curious about this too.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 08:05AM by nomorefencesitting.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I grew up RLDS and their tithing policy (at that
> time, anyway--1960s and 1970s) was that the proper
> tithe was ten percent of a person's "increase" --
> not the total income, but the amount left over
> after all basic expenses for housing, food, and
> clothing were met. Does the LDS church have a
> similar policy?
I'm only aware that the LDS church says to give ten percent of their income. I believe (though I'm not 100 percent sure) that this matter was changed in June of 1980 by by then President Marion G. Romney during a talk about tithing. Here's the link: http://www.lds.org/ensign/1980/06/concerning-tithing
Notice it says, "Tithing is not a free-will offering; it is a debt, payment of which brings great blessings."
However, when I searched for tithing on the lds.org website, this was the statement: "To tithe is to freely give one-tenth of one's income annually to the Lord through His Church."
Here's the link: http://www.lds.org/topics/tithing?lang=eng
So, is it a debt for blessings or is it freely given?
Notice also that both say income annually, not interest.
>
> I left the RLDS church in 1985 and while my dad is
> still an elder, we don't really talk about church
> policy that much or I would ask him if the policy
> has changed.
I am curious about this too.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/29/2013 08:05AM by nomorefencesitting.
But if you are not paying enough because you pay on your increase, and a bishop calls you on it, are you safe because you "have the Lord on your side?" Just wondering.
...interpret tithing as 10% of gross.
Like most things, their actual legal definition of it is vague. Once my wife was fretting about paying tithing on a loan repayment benefit which went straight to our creditor and we couldn't skim any of it for tithing. 10% of it would have been our whole month's regular income. The bishop could have said don't worry about it, but instead he pulled out the CHI and read verbatim the church's definition of tithing, which was ambiguous and didn't answer the question. The other problem is that the CHI gives BOTH a definition AND says it's between you and the Lord. Lord. My poor wife ended up paying some tithing on it and feeling unworthy that she didn't have the faith to go for it and pay the whole amount and have no money for a month, and default on every other obligation/need.
The church is well aware that 10% of gross is the defacto standard and does nothing to correct it because that would slash their revenue in half or more. Yet, if you're overpaying, the church would say it's yer own dam' fault.
Like most things, their actual legal definition of it is vague. Once my wife was fretting about paying tithing on a loan repayment benefit which went straight to our creditor and we couldn't skim any of it for tithing. 10% of it would have been our whole month's regular income. The bishop could have said don't worry about it, but instead he pulled out the CHI and read verbatim the church's definition of tithing, which was ambiguous and didn't answer the question. The other problem is that the CHI gives BOTH a definition AND says it's between you and the Lord. Lord. My poor wife ended up paying some tithing on it and feeling unworthy that she didn't have the faith to go for it and pay the whole amount and have no money for a month, and default on every other obligation/need.
The church is well aware that 10% of gross is the defacto standard and does nothing to correct it because that would slash their revenue in half or more. Yet, if you're overpaying, the church would say it's yer own dam' fault.