Case: temple-worker TBM in his 82nd year; convert at 17.
In this coming-to-a-close phase he is in a real state of perpetual hell, assailed by concerns and regrets that are typically resolved in the 30’s, 40’s and 50’s.
He is completely unchanged from when he was age 30.
Same man; same battles; no idea who he is.
It is as though he never actually lived.

Looking at your own life, likely you are not the same now as even a couple years ago – definitely much growth from 10 years ago.

In your experience, is this typical for those TBMs you know?
Are these suspended in a perpetual medieval state?

My older sister (who had 12 children) has not matured measurably in the last 40 years. She still talks like Utah mormon kids did back in the 1950s and 60s. She offers no new insights and has a self centered juvenile tone to her voice and conversation.

My older brother (the polygamist) is still dictatorial and manipulative expecting to be obeyed in spite of his obvious lying and phoniness.

Living within Mormon cultism, I don't think these people have led normal lives that should have taught them a thing or two.

I can't, and won't attempt to speak for others, however, that was definitely the case with me. I felt I missed out on a big chunk of my life, and that brought me a lot of sadness (I'd even say depression) for a while.

I was very lucky, in that my regrets didn't start coming through in mid-life like with a lot of people, they happened for me at the very end of my teenage years, so I made drastic changes to my life at that time (part of that was to stop going to church). I've changed and experienced more in the past 2 years of my life than I have done in the 10 years before that.

So yes, what you described in the OP was the case with me, and I suspect it was with many other mormons too. However, I'm sure there's some mormons who don't have this problem in their lives (maybe because they rebelled a lot when younger, or they're content with their lives, or their view of a non-mormon life is so negative that they feel they're not missing out).

I will always say from now on that I started to become an adult in November of 2013, at the age of 31 years and 10 months.

ABSOLUTELY!

A while after I left the church, I realized for the first time that I had the power and authority to make my own decisions and think my own thoughts. And I didn't need to seek anyone's approval or permission first.

It hasn't been a one-time realization, with the problem totally fixed. I've grown so much since leaving the church, but I'm still changing. It's been over a decade.

The weird part is associating with people both in and out of the church, and comparing how they interact with the world. The non-Mormons tend to exhibit healthier boundaries and seem more comfortable with themselves.

There is a certain kind of progression that you can do as a Mormon if you have the right help and connections through the church. But one of the biggest works in the LDS church is to keep everyone in an infantile state, unable to make decisions on their own and feeling like they have to run to the bishop for every need. This retards growth, but must truly be designed to.

The doctrines, policies, and practices of the church are all calculated to create total dependency on the church, and to have you entire identity based around the church.

Only after stepping outside of the church do you what a fishbowl it is, and the number of ways in which it limits your potential.

Much of my family seems to suffer from slowed 'developmental' issues. My Mom seems to act very much like a show that was programed into her. I have seen many women in the church who act like primary age kids.

Back when I was a member and a tad more active at times, I really tried to concentrate my thoughts and feelings of the church on their so called humanitarian practices and tried to put the issues I had with doctrine out of my mind....looking at the good like we should in everyone.

From the outside, I see little good from it at all. In fact, I see no good. People can be very huanitarian without religion/guilt driving it. In fact it is better when people are givers because the want to give, rather than asked to give.

This past year, I have hoped and pondered the possibility that the chruch can be changed...closer to the heart so to speak. Stop masqarading as whet they claim to be and start using their vast resources to better humans who are alive and the earth around us. Use the Temples as a place for thinking/spiritual discovery, rather than the cultish activities that go on in there now.

Now, I think the whole thing is unfixable. It should be scrapped and the top 15 CEO's thrown in prison. It is nothing but racketeering with a spiritual front...the perverbial wolves in sheeps clothing.

The sad thing is, so many out there are locked in with work, pensions and benefits. My Dad worked for them for 30 years, managing welfare farms. He worked like a dog all those years for a pitance of an income and now his pension is about 700 per month. They exploited his sweat and muscle for basically far less than minimum wage and now he has a pitiful pension to show for it. How I hate this organization.

It lures people in, strips them of their idenity, tells them who they are, all the whats and where about their life, pre life and post life, explains good and bad, defines good and bad and completely programs every second of every day of their lives. It is the greatest sham placed on humanity. It is nothing but legalized racketeering....only perhaps, it will one day be illegal. I hope one day, it is shut down, the leaders tossed in the clink and the buildings used as places for displaced homeless people.

Post of 2014 so far

my parents would be considered elderly children.

Either too much emotion or none at all.

But they KNOW the church is true.

Bunch of fuckinjg bullshit.

The book club I went to of all mormon women was a good example of this problem.

Women in their 60's to 80's didn't want to read anything more challenging than Black Beauty. I'd read than in 3rd or 4th grade. I didn't go to that book club again.

When I lived in BYU married student housing (the breeding pens) in the early 80s, one of the young wives in our ward wanted to start a "neighborhood" book club, something not associated with a ward activity. That might have been possible then, wouldn't be now. Anyway, I was really excited. I needed a little mind stimulation. I had two pre-schoolers of my own and was earning extra money doing day care in my little 12x52 ft. trailer. The idea of reading and discussing an adult-level book was like Christmas.

So she chose the first book and said that we will each choose one after that. It had to be something with no profanity or sexual scenarios. She selected "The Chosen," by Chiam Potok as the first book. I loved it and was so excited about the discussion. There were about 10 ladies who came for that first discussion. They could not make a comment without throwing in something about how it related to the church. It was irking me, but I thought maybe if we do a book without religious overtones it will be different.

The next person chose a Judy Blume book, "Wifey." I was like "seriously, Judy Blume?" But when I started reading it I was like, "well, this is kind of an interesting surprise." Apparently I, the person who chose it, and the originator were the only ones who thought that. OMG, everyone came that night and none of the rest of them had gotten through this easy peasy book because it had to do with an affair. It really would have been a fun discussion, but we never got to that. The next person called a vote. It had to be classic literature that was known to be uplifting, and she gave Black Beauty as an example, or something by an LDS GA or LDS fiction.

Needless to say, that was the end for me. I'd read Black Beauty in elementary school. I think they might have done a couple more books before they disbanded. It was mind boggeling how these adult women all acted like they were in Primary. They couldn't have carried on an adult book discussion if their lives depended on it.

Intellectual growth results from curiosity that compels a person to explore and learn and try different solutions and experiment with novel ideas.

Free inquiry is open, the search is structured by the researcher, so the decisions about how to proceed are his/her prerogative. Hunches, instinct, trial and error, experimentation and analysis are all part of the hunt. Mistakes are information for improving the pursuit.

Does any of this sound like Mormonism?

Mormonism discourages free thinking. Joseph Smith and his successors extract from their followers--obedience, loyalty, money, labor and homage. It has be so since the beginning. In exchange, followers get a sense of community, of purpose and a feeling of security. Then there is the promise of a glorious life after this one. The deal is lousy, and one of the biggest costs is members have to shut down their curiosity. They can't explore anymore.

When a member engages in free inquiry, he/she is breaking the rule to stick with church approved sources and church determined answers. Without the stimulus of unfettered exploration, the intellect stagnates.

Gold plates? Let me see if there were any other examples of such things in antiquity. Ooops, can't. Not allowed. Angels? I wonder if there is any tangible evidence of such things. Oh yeah, I'm not supposed to ask that question. The church says JS saw angels, so they must be real. P of GP facsimiles? What do non-member Egyptologists have to say about these pictures here? Well, I better just take the Church's word for it. Don't want to open a can of worms. Lamanites are of the house of Israel? DNA would prove that to be true--I wonder if there have been samples taken of American Indian DNA to see if it is actually of Middle Eastern extraction. Oh--look what FAIR said--it doesn't matter either way.

Mormons are intellectually delayed because they actively suppress their natural inquisitiveness. And they are taught to be that way--in fact they are commanded to be that way if they desire to attend the temple.

This is personal for me. My TBM younger brother is ten days shy of a year younger than I. He followed in my footsteps like a shadow from the day he was born until we both returned from our missions to Japan, found our brides and got married. He's brilliant. But his intellectual status has not developed beyond where it was at age 23. That was 32 years ago. The answers to every question I ask him are canned by either the church or the Republican Party. The only original thinking he does is equivalent to contortionist Yoga in support of the extractive institutions sanctioned by Mormonism and their demented twin, ultra conservatism.

Are Mormons mental infants? Largely, yes. At least, they are encouraged to be such.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/01/2014 09:47PM by gungholierthanthou.

gungholierthanthou Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Intellectual growth results from curiosity that compels a person to explore and learn and try different solutions and experiment with novel ideas......

> Mormonism discourages free thinking. Joseph Smith
> and his successors extract from their
> followers--obedience, loyalty, money, labor and
> homage.....
> In exchange, followers get a sense of community, of
> purpose and a feeling of security.

> Mormons are intellectually delayed because they actively suppress their natural inquisitiveness. And they are taught to be that way--in fact they are commanded to be that way if they desire to attend the temple.


Also has personal relevance here – which is why the interest.

Thanks for this cognitive scaffolding to make sense of the phenomenon. I think you’re right. And like things to make sense.

Wonder if it is those more fearful who are attracted to the church; which in turn enhances the anxiety/fear as a tool of enslavement.
Because underneath the external plastic judgmental-ness and superiority, there is invariably a hollow empty fear.

“The most important decision we make is whether we believe we live in a friendly or hostile universe.”
― Albert Einstein

Perhaps it is just that these answered differently.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 04:09PM by zenjamin.

Right on, Zenjamin. Love the name, by the way. My brilliant brother, someone I would love to have an adult relationship with, is wasting his amazing intelligence. Stupid cult.

I'm logic bombing him, gently. I sent him a letter by Dr Lowry Nelson from 1947 that was written to the first presidency about the prospects of opening Cuba for missionary work. It was suggested on Mormon Think. The responses from the prophet of that day is in direct conflict with the recent essay on blacks and the priesthood. I got an honest letter back from my brother on that one. First time ever, though he was still defensive.

The fear thing--the need to have a community; that's where that comes from, I think. Independent thinkers tend to need that less, or better put, tend to fear losing it less maybe. Maybe that's circular--since "independent" is in the description.

Like your thoughts.

One example of how TSCC does retard intellectual development is the obsession many TBM's have with anything Disney, or things like the Harry Potter books which were actually written for children. Pretty much the biggest adult Harry Potter fans I've known were all Mormons. There have also been pajama nights at some Institutes, where when they weren't showing "God's Army" or other Mormon films, they showed Disney cartoon features.

Other than pilgrimages to SLC, Nauvoo, and other church sites, the only really socially acceptable vacation for Mormons is a Disney park or now, the Harry Potter theme park because they're more "family friendly" than other vacations.

Hey, dont smear Disneyland by linking it to Mormonism, bit the rest is on the money

Love what you say about these vacations. I also think this is a suburban/white people thing. Not many people want to be uncomfortable, so they do the easiest thing out. Would had to see any real suffering in this world!

I concur with ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY!!!

The idea, as one of the posts mentioned, that exists of running to the bishop for answers would be funny if it wasn't so completely obeyed. Way back when, when I first became an active moron in my early twenties, this really blew my mind. I had only gone to church prior as a friend of a friend, so had not seen how this worked. I witnessed all the gossip that surrounded this policy and the boundaries that were no where to be found. I had been a very independent child, pretty much left to stumble on my own, and I could not believe what I was witnessing. Talk to the bishop---like talking to your next door neighbor who was not a professional in counseling and then he would talk to Bro. Little and Sis. Johnson and, and......

Finding my way out of the cult even with my independence still took a while because the promises of life after death, etc. had crept into my being. I wanted those things. But the cog dis arrived in so much of what I experienced and heard and read. And it sunk in. And then I came up for fresh reasonable air.

From the many people I know who are wrapped up in the LD$ cult, I ABSOLUTELY think that they are kept so busy, busy, busy and busy and so brainwashed that their mental growth and reasoning is back in the Stone Ages. I find these people pretty boring and unchallenging to be around----church, church and more church is what they know and talk about.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 04:39PM by presleynfactsrock.

My parents had some friends that spent the night at their house. They had a little dog with them. They couldn't decided if it should sleep in the house, or their car. They got into a huge fight over it. Finally, they called the bishop to tell them what to do. The dog stayed in the house.

I'm completing a book on this very topic. Yes, according to stage theory, a person very easily becomes polarized in a lower growth stage by refusing to look outside the box. According to James Fowler (Stages of Faith) some 60% of people never move beyond stage 3 (there are six stages)--which is where most TBMs are. There are different areas of development (spiritual, emotional, intellectual, etc.) which would explain why some TBMs are very intelligent, but remain in adolescence, spiritually speaking.

Last couple of weeks that I have been on RfM have been really fascinating, because multiple times something that gets mentioned here seems to reference my life situation, often verbatum. My TBM wife said (or messaged, while I was at work): "Your stubbornness about committing to a religion [TSCC] has kept us on the kindergarten level all these years that we have been married."

Of course, she speaks for herself. The "TSCC challenge" has given me a lot to think about, and in last four, five years my very-much-non-Morg-philosophy has stabilized and flourished. She doesn't know this, for the most part, and clearly feels that her spiritual development has been hindered, as it probably has. But I haven't stopped her – Morg has.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 11:06PM by Facing Tao.

Ask my TBM siblings, who live free in Daddy's rentals and still struggle to feed their kids.

Based on the person that is your father, would you describe him as being emotionally stunted as well?

Just based on what I've read from you, seems he's not so much stunted in an infantile, dependent phase; rather, in some kind of a 14 year old surly teenage boy phase. He uses his money to manipulate. He pouts. He's angry. He threatens. Etc.

Seems like he's stuck in a different phase than are your TBM siblings, but stuck, nonetheless, he is.

Personally, my TBM dad is stuck at about 11 years old. He's in his late seventies, and defers ALL decisions regarding his life, his relationship with his kids, etc., to his wife, my stepmom. Since she's a nasty shrew of a person, dad's relationship with his kids is strained, to the point of breaking. It's sad really, because he's probably going to die with only having a marginal relationship with all of his kids. But it's almost like this is his choice. Because, by default, he's relegated all important decisions in his life to our stepmom. (And yes, when he was married to real mom, she made all of his life decisions then.)

Frustrating!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/02/2014 08:16PM by schlock.

My 79 year-old father is really a fourteen year-old bully who hangs around with grade schoolers he can pick on. His three favorite offspring are too stunted to take care of themselves, so he houses them in his rental homes. He cannot associate with independent adults. I made my own way in life, despite his interference. I believe that he both fears and despises me.

He gathered his wealth by cheating others. He saved a lot of money by making me live in garages. That money went to real estate purchases. He became wealthy on the outside, but sick and cancerous on the inside. He is now having heart problems, and his inept son and daughters demand more and more money. Soon he will be gone, and the world will be improved.

That old adage is true, though, isn't it?

In life, you can choose your friends, but you cannot choose your relatives.

If you want to really see how the church retards growth just look on the LDS Single sites. There are 35 year olds asking opinions on where to take someone on a date, or how a 52 year old woman texted her daughter throughout the date and her daughter texted back "return with honor". A person who would NEVER date someone with more than two ear piercings(the age of that person was 50). Scarier is a 25 year old that would insist that a young woman would love God more than him and honor his priesthood. Sick sad world. I was on one of those sites for 6 months and my eyes were really open to the immaturity of members.

You can be curious or you can be obedient.

You can explore the world around you or you can be obedient and keep your blinders on and reject what you are told to reject.

You can relish new ideas and use your own cognitive thought processes . . .or you can be obedient and parrot what you are told.

You can be your self or you can construct a facade that will impress other Mormons.

You can learn what life's all about through trial and error and testing your own wits and reason, following your dreams, or you can be Mormon.

Man cannot serve two masters. Either he will grab life by the horns and discover his own humanity, or he will serve the Mormon church.

Personally, my time in the Mormon church cost me dearly as far as maturing to an acceptable level. I had a lot of catching up to do, still trying. Socially is where I lost the most ground.

The answer is YES. That is why the family get togethers I go to are boring beyond belief. Just how many decades can one talk exclusively about the church and your callings before going clinically insane? The answer to that may depend on your prescription for anti-depressants.

My step-mo-nster is a broken record, and never shuts up. And guess what she babbles on and on and on about during the few times I do go see dad (we go to utah once a month to see my kids)? The temple this, the temple that, the temple thus, and the temple must.

Gawd, she makes me want to stick toothpicks under my toenails.

Her incessant, inane, pointless babbling will do just that blue: Drive a person to clinical insanity.

My mormon family went out of their way to kill any curiosity I may have had about any thing. It wasn't in me to comply. It literally felt like they were killing me from the inside out. Thirty years of separation has been a very good thing. They are a bunch of crazy angry teenagers in senior citizen bodies.

i can only answer this for one person, so just to add another example of 'yes' - the mo ex. 33 going on 13; i was his first real relationship. he existed in a bubble until then and exhibited some very childlike behaviors, like trying to scare me at the cinema or wanting to bounce me up and down on a rock climbing belay rope. he was very out of touch with reality and i saw more maturity in all of the 18 year old nevermos i work with. he acted like a child having his toy taken away when i said i didn't want to remain friends if our relationship ended (why would i want a friend who tries to convert me to a cult anymore than a partner who did?). *shudder*