Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
I've posted a bit here, and she's read some "new" LDS history (thanks Mormonthink!), but her faith doesn't appear to be wavering. I wish it was. (I know - wish in one hand, crap in the other and see which fills faster). I have problems with the foundation of the church. Some I can overlook, some I can't. Truth and honesty dictate they couldn't have lied about so much for so long. And they lie even today with their half truths in the essays.
More important than the past is the present and future. They want time and money and use extortion to get it. (ex·tor·tion
[ik-stawr-shuhn] noun 1. the act of securing money, favours, etc by intimidation, threat or violence; blackmail) (ie, tithe or no temple, and without temple, you're going to outer darkness. Pledging time and talents at endowment, etc.). At this point, I'm horribly uncomfortable with her surrendering either, at the same time she's a competent adult able to chart her own life. I've expressed concerns, and they're summarily dismissed with a "that won't happen". I married an intelligent, critically thinking life partner. Where'd she go, and any suggestions for getting her back?
More important than the past is the present and future. They want time and money and use extortion to get it. (ex·tor·tion
[ik-stawr-shuhn] noun 1. the act of securing money, favours, etc by intimidation, threat or violence; blackmail) (ie, tithe or no temple, and without temple, you're going to outer darkness. Pledging time and talents at endowment, etc.). At this point, I'm horribly uncomfortable with her surrendering either, at the same time she's a competent adult able to chart her own life. I've expressed concerns, and they're summarily dismissed with a "that won't happen". I married an intelligent, critically thinking life partner. Where'd she go, and any suggestions for getting her back?
If giving her the facts hasn't worked, then try some other approach.
The cult's testimonies are based on emotion. Perhaps you could appeal to her feelings. Do more listening than talking. Ask her a simple question, then listen to what she has to say. For example, ask her honestly, how she felt in the temple. How did she feel in the Celestial room? Has she ever felt the presence of Joseph Smith? How would she feel if she had to share you with other wives in the hereafter, "under the new and everlasting covenant" which is polygamy. Does she feel loved by the ward members, or does she feel used? Does she feel she has true friendships that are not based on her obeying and fulfilling her calling? Is she always in the mood to sit for 3 hours, or is she put off by the boredom, repetition, screaming children. Don't mention these bad things, though. Let HER bring them up, and then you listen with sympathy.
I personally don't believe Mormonism to be a religion of happiness. I think Mormons are oppressed, bored, unhappy, discouraged, frustrated, and even abused. She needs to be comfortable enough around you to tell you she's unhappy. Most Mormons will never admit that.
Another approach is to give her more in life. This is the positive approach. Don't say anything negative about Mormons. Let her know she is loved--give her real love--not just the weak Mormon conditional love. Keep her entertained and vital. Her time is too valuable to waste in repeating the same lies over and over every Sunday, and cleaning the building on Saturday, and teaching the lies to others. She would spend Sundays with you, and your family and friends. Go outdoors into the fresh air. Take her skiing, take her out for Sunday brunch--you know what she likes to do. My husband did this, when everything else failed. Within 9 months, I chose being with my family, and living a happy life with them, instead of sitting and performing in meetings and being bored into hopelessness. You are her future! The future is bright! The world outside of Mormonism is filled with endless possibilities! When she learns this, she will want to live it.
The cult's testimonies are based on emotion. Perhaps you could appeal to her feelings. Do more listening than talking. Ask her a simple question, then listen to what she has to say. For example, ask her honestly, how she felt in the temple. How did she feel in the Celestial room? Has she ever felt the presence of Joseph Smith? How would she feel if she had to share you with other wives in the hereafter, "under the new and everlasting covenant" which is polygamy. Does she feel loved by the ward members, or does she feel used? Does she feel she has true friendships that are not based on her obeying and fulfilling her calling? Is she always in the mood to sit for 3 hours, or is she put off by the boredom, repetition, screaming children. Don't mention these bad things, though. Let HER bring them up, and then you listen with sympathy.
I personally don't believe Mormonism to be a religion of happiness. I think Mormons are oppressed, bored, unhappy, discouraged, frustrated, and even abused. She needs to be comfortable enough around you to tell you she's unhappy. Most Mormons will never admit that.
Another approach is to give her more in life. This is the positive approach. Don't say anything negative about Mormons. Let her know she is loved--give her real love--not just the weak Mormon conditional love. Keep her entertained and vital. Her time is too valuable to waste in repeating the same lies over and over every Sunday, and cleaning the building on Saturday, and teaching the lies to others. She would spend Sundays with you, and your family and friends. Go outdoors into the fresh air. Take her skiing, take her out for Sunday brunch--you know what she likes to do. My husband did this, when everything else failed. Within 9 months, I chose being with my family, and living a happy life with them, instead of sitting and performing in meetings and being bored into hopelessness. You are her future! The future is bright! The world outside of Mormonism is filled with endless possibilities! When she learns this, she will want to live it.
Keep working it, to be sure. But until someone WANTS out, there is little you can do to make that happen.
Maybe you can figure out what she values. Is it honesty/integrity? Then maybe you can show her subtly all of the TSCC lies. Is it a "forever" family? Then you can show her how TSCC actually is no different from other faiths in believing families can be together forever. It is relationships? Then maybe you can nudge her into seeing how TSCC destroys many families. Is it fairness? Then maybe you can gently show her how TSCC abused Blacks up to 1978, and how it is just now recognizing GLBTs as real people too.
Good luck.
Maybe you can figure out what she values. Is it honesty/integrity? Then maybe you can show her subtly all of the TSCC lies. Is it a "forever" family? Then you can show her how TSCC actually is no different from other faiths in believing families can be together forever. It is relationships? Then maybe you can nudge her into seeing how TSCC destroys many families. Is it fairness? Then maybe you can gently show her how TSCC abused Blacks up to 1978, and how it is just now recognizing GLBTs as real people too.
Good luck.
I know this is negative but really.My tbm spouse thinks I will return as I am so unhappy but I just want to be free from the chains that have bound me for the last thirty years and live again before it is too late. If that means starting again on my own then so be it.
three words come to mind, and they are: "no more sacrificing"
indulge in simple pleasures; opulent stacks of quilts or serene down duvets watching movies together in horrible weather; daze of breakfast in bed serve her cocoa herbal tea while you indulge in fresh french press coffee. bring weekend to her like a newly wed or live your weekend life like a retreat to a bed snd breakfast inn. show her your true colors. let generous caring cuddled bundling billowing pillows and lifes generosity glow
indulge in simple pleasures; opulent stacks of quilts or serene down duvets watching movies together in horrible weather; daze of breakfast in bed serve her cocoa herbal tea while you indulge in fresh french press coffee. bring weekend to her like a newly wed or live your weekend life like a retreat to a bed snd breakfast inn. show her your true colors. let generous caring cuddled bundling billowing pillows and lifes generosity glow
It is difficult, very difficult, if the spouse doesn't want to make a change. I have written about this (based on my own such currently ongoing experience) over last couple of weeks. The "experience" has continued for many years, but I've now had my measure of pretending I'm interested in TSCC, and it has escalated the situation. It is great if you have the channels of communication open to the degree that you can discuss potential issues, but don't push too much, especially not with "anti-mormon" material, as I have seen it leads to a shut-down of receptivity entirely. After that it's even more difficult to try to point out the flaws in the system.
I just today was listening to an audiobook where it was mentioned that after the Soviet block collapsed, for example, in East Germany there was a huge shortage of psychiatrists. An estimated 100x more would've been needed in the aftermath of the collapse of communism because the prevailing system was part of so many people's identity, and with it suddenly gone and proven essentially a failure, all these people were confused and lost. True believer mormons, especially those who have been in the church since the childhood, or otherwise a very long time, have similarly integrated it as a part of their identity. The thought of removing it is so scary to many people that they become protective of the church, even to the extent of being agressive about it. This is the nature of brainwashing.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 08:47PM by Facing Tao.
I just today was listening to an audiobook where it was mentioned that after the Soviet block collapsed, for example, in East Germany there was a huge shortage of psychiatrists. An estimated 100x more would've been needed in the aftermath of the collapse of communism because the prevailing system was part of so many people's identity, and with it suddenly gone and proven essentially a failure, all these people were confused and lost. True believer mormons, especially those who have been in the church since the childhood, or otherwise a very long time, have similarly integrated it as a part of their identity. The thought of removing it is so scary to many people that they become protective of the church, even to the extent of being agressive about it. This is the nature of brainwashing.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 08:47PM by Facing Tao.
Lead with love. Always. Unconditionally. Unless she gives you a clear, obvious opening, forget reasoning with her, plying her with "evidence," and never be aggressive or obsessive about it. Ping-pong balls of intellect mean nothing to three inches of emotional titanium alloy armor.
Just work to support her, support the marriage, be a great father and husband. Be someone she can look up to. In that respect, a big job for you is to just work on you. Be a cool, fun, interesting, non-hateful, non-raging, loving, caring man in her life.
I remember in one Ward Council, a certain family was a topic for discussion, and the report was that this member was staying with her non-member husband "because he's a good provider and father." The Mormons in the room were contemptuous, of course, of her decision, but they grudgingly recognized it as viable enough. They wished she'd leave him. That would have made their lives and planning for spreading the gospel simpler and tidier, but they accepted her reasons.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 08:55PM by derrida.
Just work to support her, support the marriage, be a great father and husband. Be someone she can look up to. In that respect, a big job for you is to just work on you. Be a cool, fun, interesting, non-hateful, non-raging, loving, caring man in her life.
I remember in one Ward Council, a certain family was a topic for discussion, and the report was that this member was staying with her non-member husband "because he's a good provider and father." The Mormons in the room were contemptuous, of course, of her decision, but they grudgingly recognized it as viable enough. They wished she'd leave him. That would have made their lives and planning for spreading the gospel simpler and tidier, but they accepted her reasons.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/03/2014 08:55PM by derrida.