Yesterday I invited the door-knocking mishies in; one was brand new (18 yrs old) and the other had just 7 months left in the field. It was the young elder X from Council Bluffs, IA, and elder Y from Poway, CA.

We began with small-talk and I felt sincere in my hope that they were receiving adequate food, nutrition, and medical care. I told them I respected them for giving of their time and expense to be out here where it's not so easy for 2 years.

Then I posed a question to the senior elder: " Please tell me everything you know regarding the nature, character, attributes of our Heavenly Father. What is He like? And please don't give me the watered-down version, tell me what you really believe."

He said "Ok well, HF is the father of our Savior, the one to whom we address our prayers, the eternal being who created everything, and He is far advanced in knowledge and wisdom."

"OK, is there anything else I should know about your HF?"

"Not really, He is just our supreme being, the father of all of our spirits and bodies."

So I dug around and pulled out the book "Gospel Principles", 1985 edition. I told him to read the last paragraph of Chapter 47. (this part has sneakily been removed from the latest printing of the book, btw)

Following the subject of "requirements for exaltation", he read...."this is how our Heavenly Father became a God. Joseph Smith taught, "it is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainy the character and nature of God". God is an exalted, glorfied man".....

So I said, "why didn't you tell me this part about your God, surely you were aware of all this? A finite, anthropomorphic being who has parents and wives and used to be merely a man like us? Are you kidding me?

Both elders simply explained they save the MEAT of the gospel until after one is bapized and gains some maturity, so they don't tell them this stuff right off the bat. I kindly explained to them, that new investigators NEED to know what you are selling them.....what is the OBJECT of their faith. They kind of agreed somewhat, and we had a pleasant goodbye and they were on their way.

Just the normal experience I guess.....but geez, a new Mormon is baptized and then later they find out about this whole different God via the internet, and end up leaving the church. Why should anyone be surprised??



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 10:31PM by Susan I/S.

Nice! There should be a YouTube series on encounters just like this one...

I must say, good job. Might make one or two of them think... if you do that with enough of them. Wish I had a copy of that book. Is it online anywhere?

Hi Sofia........Yes, "Gospel Principles" is the standard LDS book still used, and commonly given to new Mormons. It is often the textbook in the Gospel essentials class.

It was first published in 1978, and has incurred minor changes since. Chapter 47, "exaltation" is where most of the good stuff is found. However, just in the past year or so, the correlation committee removed that last paragraph from the chapter. I think it was becoming an embarrassment to them.

> correlation committee

That sound creepy. Like something from "1984". They decide what people should believe.

It's still in the lds.org online manual.

Good to know that it's online but not in the print version. I'll look it up there. Never went to a Gospel Essentials class, having grown up in the church. Thanks.

There are so many things they should tell you, about why members go to temple and that they do indeed believe going to temple is the way to get to heaven! When I was baptized, one of my missionaries who converted me asked me to write in a little book she carries around with her. It has stories of people's baptisms and whatever the new converts wanted to share. I wrote to her that she was a blessed and sweet individual, however, she should consider sharing the "meat" more often.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/2014 10:49PM by Susan I/S.

It's like 'Q' giving James Bond the Aston Martin and not telling about the ejection seat and the machine gun lights.

Well, not really, but at least Q told 007 about all the neat toys right up front...

What's amazing is that they're basically admitting that their Gospel has problems, because if an investigator knew that part, they wouldn't get baptized.

Duh! Why isn't that a huge red flag to the missionaries about what they're teaching people?

The infantalization of adults (feeding them only "milk") actually IS one of the basics of Mormonism. Some people leave when they realize they signed up without full disclosure. More choose to stay rather than admit they made a mistake.

Our pride--human nature-- is on their side. Pretty interesting that they rely on one of the Seven Deadly Sins to keep members from choosing truth and quitting.


Anagrammy

Its another reason, when people have questions about Mormonism, why they should ALSO go to ex-Mormon or non-Mormon sources instead of following the standard Mormon advice of just "ask a Mormon" because Mormons will INTENTIONALLY WITHHOLD INFORMATION from you. This proves it.

If the church no longer teaches HF is an exalted man, how do the missionaries come to know about it to deliberately withhold?

I can't find it now, but I recall a conference talk/Ensign
article about honesty which pointed out that withholding
information is a form of lying. Of course they were talking in
terms of when we answer "worthiness interview" questions. But
applying the same standard to the Church that it asks of its
members would only be fair, right?

Are we sure either of these "kids" knew those teachings before the OP read it to them?

I'd bet a nickel they don't know what anthropomorphic means, (clapping hands five times).

baura stated:

"I can't find it now, but I recall a conference talk/Ensign
article about honesty which pointed out that withholding
information is a form of lying."

-------------------

A great general conference talk that discusses lying with plenty of great quotes that anyone can use to discredit the tactics of the LDS hierarchy when they or a TBM state it is appropriate at times to NOT tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Here's the link:

"This is No Harm" by Apostle Marvin J. Ashton, of the Q12, Ensign May 1982 https://www.lds.org/ensign/1982/05/this-is-no-harm?lang=eng

Some quotes from the article:

(1) A lie can be effectively communicated without words ever being spoken. Sometimes a nod of the head or silence can deceive. Recommending a questionable business investment, making a false entry in a ledger, devious use of flattery, or failure to divulge all pertinent facts are a few other ways to communicate the lie.

(2) How serious is lying? We have a clue when we read all through the scriptures that Satan is the father of lies. His method of teaching this evil practice is illustrated in the tenth section of the Doctrine and Covenants: “Yea, he [Satan] saith unto them: Deceive and lie … ; behold, this is no harm. And thus he … telleth them that it is no sin to lie. … And thus he … causeth them to catch themselves in their own snare. (D&C 10:25–26.)

(3) It is a sin to lie. It is a tragedy to be the victim of lies. Being trapped in the snares of dishonesty and misrepresentation does not happen instantaneously. One little lie or dishonest act leads to another until the perpetrator is caught in the web of deceit. As Samuel Johnson wrote, “The chains of habit are generally too small to be felt until they are too strong to be broken.”

(4) Lies are often excuses for lack of courage. Sometimes lies are nothing more than excuses for poor performance. Usually one lie or deception has to be covered by another. Lies cannot stand alone. Each one must continually be supported by more and more of its own kind.

(5) A person of integrity will assist others to be honest. A person of integrity will ask questions and give answers that are accurate.

(6) Abraham Lincoln once said, “Stand with anybody that stands right. Stand with him while he is right and part with him when he goes wrong.”

(7) We are living in a day and time when the “gentle lie,” the “soft lie,” the “convenient lie,” the “misleading lie,” the “once-in-a-lifetime deal,” the “opportunity for a few selected friends” are being vigorously advocated and promoted. Designing promoters of questionable schemes have and will continue to prey on the gullible.

>>>(no. 8 is a good quote against paying tithing)<<<

(8) More often than not, those who can least afford to go into debt to provide funds for scheming money managers are those hurt the most when the day of final accounting arrives. It is true, getting into debt is a tanglesome web.

(9) Lying damages others.

(10) No man will ever be totally free who is living a lie. Only he who bears or who has borne such a continuing burden can relate appropriately to such a declaration. We should ever bear in mind that a wrong isn’t right just because many people do it.

(11) People of integrity will neither foster, nourish, embrace, nor share the lie.

"failure to divulge all pertinent facts are a few other ways to
communicate the lie."

Yes, thank you.

This is the quote that deals with the "milk before meat"
approach that the missionaries used.

Can you say "hypocrisy?"