I am in what feels like an impossible situation. My spouse who I love is as corridor Mormon as they come and has ratcheted up the indoctrination of our children to new levels. I thought my kids (teenagers) would see right through it but I believe they are now actually becoming little Morgbots. It makes my hair hurt to see them judging gays and talking as if they were superior to non Mormons and talking about Book of Mormon characters as if they actually existed and all the other EVIL sh@t that Mormonism teaches.

What can I do? Anyone know how to keep your integrity, preserve your children's sanity, and yet not incur the hatred and righteous anger of a TBM spouse? It seems like an impossible task. I already think she has the kids considering me as a confused and not very valiant "priesthood holder".

Do I have to go scorched earth here and just have it out? Is there a peaceful solution? Has anything worked for any of you? Thank you in advance for any advice you might have.

Quietly undo what your wife is teaching.

1. Take time each day with one of your kids, preferably around bedtime for teaching.
2. Build a close relationship with each of them and express your desire for them to learn to think for themselves
3. Ask their opinions and, if it aligns with that of a morgbot, catch it now and help them come to their own conclusion.
4. Make it known frequently your desire to help them learn HOW to think...not WHAT to think.

Do this and I think your kids will eventually see things for what they really are...and that is your respect for them as actual people with the ability to make up their own mind. ACT QUICKLY to counteract your wife's teachings and do it as quietly as possible. If your wife calls you on the carpet, then you might consider going scorched earth on her ass by letting her now they're YOUR KIDS as well and you have as much right to teach your views as she does hers.

"I already think she has the kids considering me as a confused and not very valiant "priesthood holder"."

Go overboard yourself, and see if this can show them how stupid it all is.

From now on, start each comment, suggestion, and question to everybody in your family with, "In the name of the holy Melchezadic Priesthood (which I hold), I think we should have chicken for dinner tomorrow night." etc., etc.

Don't you think it would be a good idea while you STILL have
Some semblance of 'the holy priesthood' LOL, to investigate and MAKE an appointment with a child centered psychiatrist for
Some counseling for your kids due to 'escalating strife' on the home front??

children are PAWNS in the ChurchCo scenario!

I hope your wife is amenable to meeting with a skilled counselor who will see this for what it is: Gross Manipulation (an LDS Speciality!)

I wouldn't know how any sort of compromise is possible against the Morg & their tactics; but hopefully your wife will allow a balanced presentation of all issues to your kids...

Get a divorce and get custody of your kids. She sounds like a mental case. You can win.
Her opinion of you is going to get lower and lower and since she is the primary model for your kids, their opinions will follow hers. Do you want to be the non-valiant parent? The one that the kids don't respect? You don't have a choice here.
Record her ranting for use in court or videotape it. You are going to need it.

I wanted to reply to your other post, but it was closed by the time I got to it.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1135024,1135024#msg-1135024

You recognize that your wife is manipulating you. I wanted to make sure you get that she's abusing you, too, verbally and emotionally.

I wanted to point out that Satan, the priesthood you've stopped honoring, and your patriarchal blessing are all totally imaginary. What's stopping you from saying so? And from informing Mrs. Fundamentard that she's responsible for her own feelings and her behavior is abusive?

And now I would add, who died and left Mrs. F in charge of your kids? Why can't you speak your mind in front of them and give them corrective feedback? Is that scorched earth? I don't think so.

I think we exmos are often inclined to take abuse from our still-believing loved ones because we feel guilty for changing the game on them, because we're still a bit brainwashed and not completely confident in our choices, because we're afraid of consequences (e.g., divorce) that may not materialize, and/or because the Mormon church is an abusive organization that taught us to take abuse.

And they keep dishing it out as long as we let them.

I'm not a fan of Dr. Phil, but one thing he says that I really like is, "What's the payoff?"

Your wife is doing this stuff because she's getting something out of it, emotionally. Maybe try asking her what that is, if you're not comfortable telling her she's being irrational and abusive. Make no mistake, though, she is.

And then, while you're at it, ask yourself what you're getting out of holding back until your hair hurts and you want to cry and stuff.

Don't get me wrong, because I'm speaking from personal experience. I took two years of the most vicious verbal and shameless financial abuse from someone a lot bigger and scarier and more seemingly invincible than Mrs. Fundamentard sounds.

It took me a long time to figure out why I let a big, mean, disgusting bum turn me into a hopeless, nervous wreck and almost ruin my life. Eventually I realized it was because, thanks to controlling parents who taught me that unpleasant interactions with others were somehow at least partially if not entirely my fault, I had a thing about not being the bad guy. The big, mean, disgusting bum gave me someone I could point to and say, "Look, there's the bad guy. It's him, not me."

Look at me, I'm a saint! LOL.

I wouldn't presume to say that's what you're doing. I'd be more inclined to guess one or more of the exmo guilt, confidence, or fear things that I mentioned above. However, it does seem like you're way super invested in being a nice guy, to your own detriment.

Standing up for yourself is an ideal, but sometimes impractical proposition. There's risk.

I've tried to confront my TBM wife about the church. She reacts exactly as I would expect if I told her her mom is a molester. She acts like I'm crazy, stupid, impertinent, deluded, and that it's so absurd that there's no discussion. She acts like I could only harbor such a deranged and depraved proposition as the church not being true because I have lost my mind. She's SO right that I can ONLY be pathetically wrong. She said up front "I'll only take so much", a veiled threat to leave me if I push her too far.

A TBM spouse has "the nuclear option". They're like a mini superpower in your life. They have legal and psychosocial imminence with your children and your money, for life. If they go nuts, they can, and anecdotally sometimes do, nuke you...just for being "anti-Mormon" or "apostate" or whatever they rationalize. And, in their mind it's YOUR fault. They treat you with contempt for what they perceive as your contempt for them. Imaginary evils are real to them, and they act like any of us might act in an apocalyptic event.

You take a risk "standing up" to them. They might just do something irrational. In many ways you have to treat them like they're mentally ill and patronize them. Maybe it's a deal-with-the-devil, and maybe I'm overly fearful, but at least I have a stable status-quo.

Of course I want my kids to know Mormonism isn't true. But, it's also an instinctive dilemma to force an adversarial dichotomy on them, force them to choose between their mom and me philosophically. I was forced by a court to choose between my parents when I was a youth, and I feel guilty about it 30 years later. Mormon or not, we're hard-wired to be loyal to our parents, and it's traumatic to a kid to be disloyal EVEN if the parent is dead wrong. I know I'm taking a risk by not protesting Mormonism in my home, but I'm taking a bigger risk protesting it. It can backfire.

Sorry, but you haven't described anything that millions of men and women with intransigent, overbearing, manipulative, abusive spouses don't face every day.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 12:50PM by munchybotaz.

No, other than in this case the source of strife is Morg brainwashing. Like amos2 writes, TBM spouses behave entirely irrationally. I don't think they are in control of their faculties in that respect / at that time because they run a TSCC installed program when any hazard to TSCC dogma is presented to them.

or more difficult to deal with than any other abuser with a personality disorder or a mood problem or a lifetime of learned bad behavior. It's all irrational, all abuse, all unacceptable.

@amos2: This is why this forum is great. I could've written that, word for word. It makes situation easier to handle when there is awareness that our situation is not unique (although I would not, and do not wish similar circumstance on anyone, and in fact would gladly be a unique case if others didn't have to be in the same predicament. But still..)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 01:01PM by Facing Tao.

because I went mormon ballistic when I found out my ex is gay (before I married him). You are taught it is UP TO YOU to save this person and you become insane.

What a relief it was to let go--to let go of trying to control.

Of course, I had another insanity lapse when he decided to leave. It took years to get through it.

IT IS OUR JOB--that is all we were ever told--to save a soul. My TBM daughter does the same type stuff. She has backed off some now--(as she is attending her institute class with her mormon mother and then going to do baptisms for the dead.) But she has been trying to save her family for years now. It gets crazy.

I'm sure your wives have told your kids that it is up to them also to save you and save the family.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2014 01:45PM by cl2.

Thank you all for the strength and advice. I should add that she is not physically abusive or frightening in any way. But she goes bug nuts when she is upset--screaming, driving the car extremely recklessly, making a horrible scene in front of the kids and neighbors, etc. I am not able to do those things, and yes you are right that I grew up in a very strong "go along to get along" training process that has made me uncomfortable with conflict ever since.

In other words my fear and my restraint is not for physical harm. Its for the sake of my kids and my sanity because I am not reAdy to give up on her. These behaviors have been present in our family for our entire marriage but only in small, rare doses. Lately they have gone through the roof. About two years now there has been a steady increase.

I should also have said that I don't see the behaviors getting better because she has a TBM best friend that sends her crazy letters telling her to "fight the good fight" and reassuring her that the fate of her family and children is in her hands, etc.

Just realize that allowing her behavior to continue IS harming your children anyway. They are being brainwashed to give years of their lives and tons of money to a corporate entity that will only endlessly tell them they are not good enough and make them feel terrible about their every natural inclination. In the end you have no idea how badly the brainwashing might hurt your kids. What if one of your grandkids has to go without a needed medication because your child has been brainwashed into thinking that paying tithing has to come first?

Is a lifetime of lower intensity harm to your children better than a few short months of high intensity conflict as you set your house in order? Its your call, but I wouldn't allow anyone to treat me, and most especially my children like that without fighting back with everything I have.

*** But she goes bug nuts when she is upset--screaming, driving the car extremely recklessly, making a horrible scene in front of the kids and neighbors***

Please realize this is VERY abusive behavior, and behavior that your children may learn to use.

That is abusive behavior and you are enabling it, especially allowing that type of behavior to go on in front of the children. Your wife needs professional help and possibly meds.

My Dad felt the same as you, I think, but never said much. As a Morgbot I was bugged by his casual approach to fasting and that he never bore his testimony. When I left home he called me and urgently wanted to make sure that I knew, General Authorities are not infallible! That was interesting. I didn't think much about it at the time... but later as my mental wheels started to turn (finally!) I realized that he didn't really believe it much. That gave me a lot of comfort, AND we have had a few good conversations on it. I only regret that we didn't have these conversations when I was a teenager... I wish I had learned to think THEN. Anyway, what I'm saying is, you can plant a lot of seeds now that will blossom later, even if you don't want to rock the boat.
However, your wife sounds kind of scary... I wonder what makes her do that.

"I wonder what makes her do that."

What do you think? :(

Part of their original/personal mind has been overwritten by TSCC. Now they behave according that program rather than how they would behave as their own person. And yes, there is no care as to who should hear the poison (kids, neighbors..), because it's all justified. After all, it's the "devil" who they're talking to.

Her best friend needs to get the hell OUT of your marriage!

You might want to remind your wife that her friend is not the one she gets in bed with at night. She's not the one raising your kids, paying the bills, or anything else. Tell your wife to quit telling her friend every detail of your marriage. If she refuses to do that, tell her that you yourself will go have a chat with her friend. Then DO it! Tell her friend to butt out. She's got her nose where it doesn't belong.

I suspect this so called friend is doing a lot of damage by being a back seat driver to your marriage. I think she's getting your wife whipped into a self righteous frenzy. There are people who take great joy in doing that kind of thing. If you can get the toxic cheerleader out of the background you may see things get a bit better.

Your children could benefit with some quality time with nevermos and gays. I cannot count the times I have heard someone say that although they were anti-gay for many years, that when they finally got to know someone, their outlook turned on a dime.


The same is true for getting to know a gentile, an independent educated woman, or anyone at all who isn't part of your rigid little world view.


Good luck. I admire your efforts and true caring for your children.

This scenario is played out in many Mormon marriages, unfortunately.

The unbelieving spouse is relegated to an inferior position and treated like an imbecile.
You don't have a marriage, you are stuck in an insane asylum.

See a non-Mormon therapist for emotional support.
Next, evaluate your options.

You can demand better treatment and respect within the family.

If that does not work, you have the option to leave.
Since your kids are teenagers, your financial responsibility ends at age 18.

Only you can decide how much longer you want to put up with the current disrespect.

Have you talked to her about how her behavior is affecting you and your feelings toward her?

Every child needs parents who have mutual respect--at the very least. Sometimes we can't manage that and in that case, respect is best maintained in separate households.

Allowing your children to witness abuse is very bad for them, worse than losing a live-in father.

If you were not in the hair-pulling, spitting phase of marriage deterioration, I would suggest conducting a calm program of study of other religions from a mythology standpoint, teaching respect for the truth of other religions' myths lie not in their literal truth but in the human yearning for stories which carry our greatest values, etc. Joseph Campbell instead of Joseph Smith.

Letting older children notice the similarity in the story of Krishna to Christ, and the presence of "Bible" stories in the Maharabata should open their minds -- especially if you respect the flood story, for example, as a common need for a clean slate and the hero with a thousand faces as our(and hopefully it rubs off). Down through the centuries and millenia, mankind struggles to be "better" -- and that word keeps being redefined.

Today "better" means "greener" here in California, whereas in Texas it may mean being more nationalistic, more patriotic, supporting more of an imperialistic America.

Teaching children that being a good person is redefined by each society leads directly to the idea that they have a conscience which decides for them what good behavior is...and leads to the development of personal integrity.

And we all know that Mormonism teaches to obey the prophet and support the church even if it involves violating your own conscience (ie, lying for the Lord, etc). By strengthening your children's conscience, you are preparing them to make their own decisions and arming them for the day when they will see for themselves the corruption and cruelty tolerated/embraced in Mormonism. They will have to make a choice - the iron rod or their own integrity.

As a divorced father (and you will end up divorced, of course) you can make your visitation time counter-cult time by taking a fun educational approach to visiting other churches, other countries, even just non-Mormon communities with moral basis other than LDS can be teaching moments.

Tell your children that you believe in Family First and that means time with them is your highest priority, not service to a church. You believe that you were put on this earth to parent them and know them deeply, that this is what god intended for you, not for you to be wasting their childhood cleaning bathrooms at the ward building.

Take them camping.

Best of luck, friend, my heart goes out to you.


Anagrammy

From information I've read and from life observations, I believe that divorce situations vary in how the children are affected. It is not always negatively. It might be helpful to do some research in this area to gain more information.

As anagrammy said, I believe abuse is very hard on children. Do not be mistaken that they are watching and hurting, and it is emotional abuse that they are currently now a part of in their family. My bet is that can that they are currently not liking the home atmosphere.

I believe some professional counseling could be helpful for all of you. But, if you see this as not a solution for whatever reason, I would set boundaries for yourself as far as reacting to your wife's bullying. Walk away, ignore her, take the children on a hike or play soccer and then grab an ice cream and then talk to them. Invite your wife to come---she probably will refuse---but you can go. Don't engage her in her unhealthy behaviors.

If she leaves your patriarchial blessing lying around, well, it is yours, and if you do not want it to be where she put it, move it. Have Sundays planned with fun activities, and as anagrammy said engage the family in new aspects about life and people, and if wife doesn't want to be part of it, so be it.

Your kids are extremely LUCKY to have a Dad who cares about them and who has ideals of his own.

Wishing you the best in this journey.

I agree about talking to each of your kids alone. Make them understand that Mormons don't allow anyone to step off the path at all. And I do not men to sin, but to skip one Sun. or to invite a disinterested nonmormon to do something is so WRONG in their eyes. Talk to them about nonmormons who have a son or daughter that converts and gets convinced they must have a temple marrige and then the parents can not even see the wedding. Do they truly think that is fair.

Tell them the Temple is a lot more complicated than they know anything about. If they continue on in this faith they will learn this. Explain how important it is to think for yourself in all situations. If they put God first in their decision making, it makes no different what religious group you belong to - the LDS make it appear all others are horrible and misled people.

If any bring up any topic that concerns them, say you will share what you know and feel about the subject and you will keep the conversations between the two of you. I can't imagine living this way. The men of the church being praised while you are looking like a lost sheep. I would put my foot down on anything like that. Best of luck as you weather this difficult time - I guess coming here is the best place to vent.

Watch this:

http://hotm.tv/ep-348/

as a MD with only real world (I'm an ER doc), not formal psychiatry training, this is mostly correct. When I was graduating Medical School in 1996, one speaker noted that 1/3 of all visits to primary care providers would be due to emotional or spiritual issues. He referenced a forward thinking, early 1900's physician's essay: The Physician as Priest. God, I'm going to dig through boxes to find it. The practicing physician that wrote the essay forcasted, as spirituality (formal religion) decreased, the paradigm of seeking metaphors would shift, the physician would become, in essence, become like a priest or pastor. I will detail suffering and metaphors later.

Your children are teenagers. They are entitled to your point of view alongside their mother's. Speak up! And let your wife throw a tantrum -- because that's what it is.