This may have been discussed before. But -- when reading a missionary blog it hit me how often these bloggers insert the phrase "I know the church is true." I know it is standard Mormon stuff, I was taught to say it when was a kid. And it is the standard Mormon defense mechanism. I suspect that Mormons have an auto-insert for the phrase on their computers.

But, the word "church" denotes a building and an organizational structure, e.g the Lutheran Church, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, etc.

The "good news" (Gospel) is the story of Christianity, whether or however you believe it or not. But of those who believe that particular mythology, some would express a literal belief in a factual truth, some would express a belief in a metaphorical truth. Both might say the Gospel is true, but have a differing meaning of truth.

So I can understand Mormons saying the BOM is a true story, that JS was a true prophet of God, etc. -- even though I don't believe that, I can understand someone declaring it true (for themselves).

But how can the church be true as Mormons express it? I do know the Apostles' Creed (as used in some denominations) states "I believe in the holy catholic church (small c meaning universal), the line comes after expressing belief in God and Jesus. But I see that as statement of belief with an element of choice, not a knowing.

Institutions do not fall into the category of things that could be true or false. Representations (stories, beliefs, books, memories, photographs) are the sort of things can be true or false.

so saying that "the church is true" is treating something from one category (an institution) like is from another category (a representation). This is known as a Categorical Error.

It makes as much sense as saying "The government of Saskatchewan is true."

yes it should be. most Mormons are stupid.

When Mormons say "the church is true" usually what they mean is the gospel is true. "the church" as an organization is run by fallible human beings who can make mistakes. Of course they can only hope that the truths of the gospel will not be adversely affected by the fallible leaders.

anonow Wrote:
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> When Mormons say "the church is true" usually what
> they mean is the gospel is true. "the church" as
> an organization is run by fallible human beings
> who can make mistakes. Of course they can only
> hope that the truths of the gospel will not be
> adversely affected by the fallible leaders.

I think what they mean is that Smith was not lying, he was a true prophet, this is the true restored church of Jesus. Of course the whole thing is a fraud, so they keep saying "the church is true...the church is true..." as a brainwashing tactic.

Mormonism is an excellent example of organization man. The message is far less important than the maintenance of the hierarchy. If indeed there is a message. Mormonism appears to have devolved into an obedience cult. Contemporary members are more worried about their status in the ward than real problems, such as economic recession or war or climate change.

Of course, it makes sense that the phrase "I know the *church* is true" is frequently repeated. It automatically enforces, primes, TBM's belief in the church organization (including, specifically, the GAs and the prophet) when they hear the phrase repeated over and over and over again, often by people in the [perceived] positions of authority.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2014 10:03PM by Facing Tao.

I think it is intentional that members are taught to say "I know the church is true." One of the main intentions of the church is to get people to believe it is synonymous with Jesus and the gospel. It then leads people from, "I know that Jesus is the savior and his gospel is true" to simply "the church is true." By making the two to be one and the same to members, it then leads people to believe that if they leave the church, they're not just rejecting the LDS church, but they are also rejecting Jesus. I think I lot of Mormons are horrified because they think apostates are rejecting Christ, not just this brand of religion.

Yep. That ALWAYS bugged me. Even as a die-hard TBM. I think what woke me up to how stupid that sounds is when a string of little children pop up at the pulpit on Fast Sunday and parrot, "I know the Church is true, I know ___ is a prophet of God..."

"I think what woke me up to how stupid that sounds is when a string of little children pop up at the pulpit on Fast Sunday"

It's very clear where the main experiential pain points in TSCC are. This is one of them; it has grated me terribly every time I've heard it (usually at FATM), and I've seen numerous people mentioning it here just in a few weeks. The other "big one" is (unsurprisingly) the temple. At least it's nice that TSCC has such jarring experiences built in to shake people awake!

Vaguely recall an announcement by bishopric conducting a F&T meeting that adults were to bear their testimonies first. And that parents should not pressure or even suggest to their children to bear their testimonies in sac mtg. Furthermore not to dictate what their children say in the microphone. Bishopric person emphasized that bearing one's testimony is a personal, spiritual matter, and no one should be pressed to do so, but as always are welcomed and joyfully urged to do so when the spirit calls.

This was in a utah ward in which I dare say the number of children outnumbered the adults, and every f&t had been monopolized by children going up to the mic and repeating the same things over & over.

Forgive me for that tangent. But yeah, when people mindlessly prattle off, "I know the church is true," 'twould be more accurate to say "gospel," though in reality we now realize that it's all a farce.

I for one don't make much of a distinction...the gospel pretty much defines the church...and they are both bogus. I am looking forward with anticipation the lengths the 15 will stoop to in denying the obvious and provable fraud that the LDS house of cards is built on.

Ron Burr

I dunno. I don't recall ever hearing a member bear a testimony about Christ being the Redeemer or anything. It's never even about Christianity, let alone the "Gospel." It is only about the church and the presumptuous "prophets." They know the way, of course.

True

In 1984 there was a talk given by Ronald E. Poelman in General Conference that discussed the differences between the church and the gospel-- and the talk was actually pretty good. However, after the talk was given live, the FP and Q12 made Poelman re-record his entire talk -- with an entirely opposite message -- and even dubbed in a "cough track" to make it appear as if it were given live. I guess the morons who run the church didn't realize that many people had VCRs and had recorded the original. Both versions can be compared here:
http://www.lds-mormon.com/poelman.shtml

Great find. And the FP really took an axe to his talk. I wonder how he felt about this censorship.

It makes me wonder how many conference talks were changed/ whitewashed prior to the 1980s when most people were not able to record them.

The original is so real. The revised talk is so dumbed down. It's sad. The church might not have the problems it has today if they would stick to authencity instead of manipulating everything.

Wow...that phrase bothers me...how about " I know that Jesus is our Savior?" The church.....what does it mean? I like some of your answers above....but, myself, I don't believe "the church" is true....I do believe Jesus is my Savior and God is my father...the church needs to promote the saying of these things....hah! That'll never happen......

I think that at this point no one at LDS is concerned about the gospel. No one really focuses, teaches or cares about what Jesus taught. Its all aobut the church as an organization, it is magical, it can save and it must be folllowed.

At no point do they see the huge gap betwwen what the church and the gospel teaches.

ironically a focus on the gospel is the only thing that would save the church.

"ironically a focus on the gospel is the only thing that would save the church."

True. And if they were to go mainstream they would lose power and money.

Oooooh, you gotta love their dilemma ;)

My parents raised me to say the gospel was true not the church was true. That worked for 55 years, then I learned I'd been hoodwinked. Goodbye to believing either for me.

Tithing checks are written to The Church not the gospel.

Sergei Wrote:
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> Tithing checks are written to The Church not the
> gospel.


Nailed it.