Is it when they become bishops? Or stake president? Or maybe the elite 70? At what point do they know that they don't get messages from God Etc? And I'm still surprised that none of them has ever come forward. Surely out the hundreds if GAs that have come and gone, someone must have had to have a conscience.

Don’t underestimate the power of self-delusion. Most bishops, SPs, etc. grew up believing that church leaders are highly favored by God. Since they have received a leadership call, they must be somehow special. They interpret every emotion as a message from above. Every once in a while they get a bit of what most people would call intuition, but they see it as a prompting from the Holy Ghost. Most of these people probably actually believe that they are divinely guided.

I've wondered the same thing. With JS having all these grand visions, how do they reconcile it when they're not. Also I can't imagine how they get over all the controversial stuff...at the higher levels, they have to read it and deal with it...what they tell the average member not to do

CrispingPin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every once in a while they get a bit of what most people
> would call intuition, but they see it as a prompting from
> the Holy Ghost. Most of these people probably actually
> believe that they are divinely guided.

Yeah, that. We've all heard of arrogant Bishops who completely push to change the direction of a person's life, because they believe they know what's best. They believe themselves to be divinely inspired.

I've known Bishops who have counselled people to divorce, to change careers, or to move to a different home. And the poor people believe them, so they follow that counsel. It's sad, really.

My dad was a bishop and in a stake presidency. He believes it all 100%. He absolutely believes that he was led by "the Spirit" in the decisions he made in those rolls. I see no reason to think a 70, or an apostle, or even the president couldn't be similarly deluded. Sure, they're not seeing visions of angles, but they could still convince themselves that God is leading "His Church" by influencing their decisions.

My counterexample to the proposition that "the higher-ups MUST
know" is my brother.

He's an institute director, knows all the "problems" because
I've told them to him, in detail, but he never doubts Mormonism
for a second. The parts he doesn't have a comeback to (and a
common comeback has been "God intervened supernaturally for
reasons that we just don't know") he just says we'll know in the
hereafter.

The top leaders were chosen because they have demonstrated their
willingness to believe completely no matter what.

Rank-and-file Mormons are deluded, but I can only imagine the pressure applied to someone whose paycheck is on the line. Your brother's mortal AND immortal existence depend upon his continued belief, thus, he will believe no matter what.

baura Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My counterexample to the proposition that "the
> higher-ups MUST
> know" is my brother.
>
> He's an institute director, knows all the
> "problems" because
> I've told them to him, in detail, but he never
> doubts Mormonism
> for a second. The parts he doesn't have a
> comeback to (and a
> common comeback has been "God intervened
> supernaturally for
> reasons that we just don't know") he just says
> we'll know in the
> hereafter.
>
> The top leaders were chosen because they have
> demonstrated their
> willingness to believe completely no matter what.


Sounds rather self-evident who got the functional neuron connecting genes in your family bro.

A keen intellect such as yourself having such a cluess sibling only goes to show what a cunning gal mother nature is.

My brother is no intellectual slouch. However, like the GAs,
his intellect has been used to find ways over, under and around
the problems with Mormonism.

It's not a question of smarts--it's a question of objectivity.
Something that my brother definitely lacks.

Religion in general has centuries of sophisticated apologetics to back it up. Religion is, in itself, an exercise in abstract reasoning. Calling religious believers stupid is not only hypocritical, it misses the point that religion actually preys on intelligence.
I'm a huge fan of Dawkins, Harris, et al, but they often say they don't understand how educated people can fall for the bogus premises and twisted logic of religion. They, like too many, attempt basically to pile facts on religion. It doesn't work.
And, there are stupid irreligious people too. I was one. When I was a teenager I claimed to disbelieve in religion, but I was ignorant of the sophistication of it. I fell for it at age 19 in a wise-up phase, and I have to admit religious belief, in my own case, increased my sophistication.

...the first step in the inevitable downfall of a GA, is when you see a blacked-out Lincoln towncar in the back parking lot of Hooters. He is inside, and is being tempted, thinking..."Should I go in or not?...well, I don't think anyone will recognize me, cause I'm really a nobody...right?....RIGHT???????
..."Driver....go around the block again...this is HARD!!"

Hahah!

I always thought at some point, being invested as much as you are and constantly telling people how to think or what to do and with all the anti-info being shared to you, that at some point people will realize the truth.

That's how it was for me in a small way. It's like a small constant drop of water, eventually the continual trickle reshapes even rocks. Eventually the small tapping breaks even the strongest dams. One day I guess I should post my story.

Missionaries came by my house yesterday, how they found me is beyond my stalking comprehension(I'm betting my mother told them). They asked "if I ever wanted to come learn about the church again, the door is always open." No thanks, I'm glad I shut that door. They told me they would come visit me again...I mean seriously?? Next time I'm going to bring them inside and have a discussion with them and point out the continual flaws in their ever so perfect book. Maybe make a compromise with them? I'll read one lesson with them if they read one article on mormonthink. Fair enough I would presume?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2014 01:32PM by confused123.

I think in general they do still believe, all the way up to the Apostles. There may be a few that lose their testimonies, but continue to go along with it because it's easier, but I'm sure most must still believe.

An Area Authority left the church last year and he said he genuinely believed the whole time.

I've thought about this before, and there really is no point in the hierachy where the church can tell people that the church isn't true. I'm sure some come to that conclusion themselves, but they keep quiet about it.

The LD$ church has the best GAs money can buy.

THAT'S why they still believe in Mormonism.

How do they deal with the Wide dis-connects between claims & everyday practices - policies? That's the part that gets me!

partial answer(?) to them, it's all about 'the church', Nothing about Christian Values.

Probably the same way ordinary members deal with it. Ignore what they can whenever possible, use circular logic and obfuscation to justify whatever they can't ignore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2014 02:37PM by nickname.

It is a serious question, no doubt.
How can they make all this nasty decisions if they still believe? I’ll think there is a point of doubt, than the stage of disbelieve and with the stage of disbelieve comes the point of no return. The fear of loosing everything, Privileges, Status, Power, and Income is big. What would be the alternative? The alternative would be to actually work for a living and being nobody again. A by religion and government heavily screw up.
Or does here really someone believe that a catholic/Lutheran or evangelical bishop actually belief in his religion? They all believe in the power of leadership. Is here really someone that believe that those Christian TV Motivations speaker really believe in a or any god? Yes? Ok - than dream on.

The fact that you said you're surprised that none have come forward is probably an indication that they really do believe it. Otherwise you're right. Someone would have cracked and said something, after 184 years of Church history.

This is the question that kept me obsessed with Warren Jeffs and eventually brought me to this site. After three years of following the FLDS I finally concluded that they believe. They really believe that the burning in the bosum is god talking to them that Jeffs is relaying the word of God and that they meaning his closest higher ups will come out of jail believing

In some ways it makes the cult (including the LDS) worse because it creates ways for evil to hide itself from self inspection.

Lots of the EARLY higher ups quit believing in Joseph Smith. Some were still quite deluded and started their own churches after leaving like David Whitmer. I don't think higher ups like William Law or John C. Bennett ever believed again after leaving.

The higher ups today I think are self deluded as mentioned above and have nowhere else to go anyway if they leave. They get too much out of being at the top of the MLM scheme. There are no real men of integrity among the whole bunch IMHO. They are all true believer bureaucrats.

Would you be the one to ruin the lives of all your GA friends, the believing membership and your own all at the same time? That would take a lot of integrity AND belief that the church is so bad that it MUST be exposed.

If you're a non believer GA, my guess is you've weighed what you believe are the costs of telling - both to sself and others and decided that not rocking the boat is best. Or you just give really good conference talks that do motivate people to become their best selves.

Others, who like the power of leadership and the perks are sure NOT going to rock the boat!

At the very least, they believe in the Corporation to the point where it must be protected at all costs.

Yes, yes and yes and
*besides our church is not worse than others.
* I am a spiritual advisor.
*I can do so much good in my position,
*I worked so hard why give it up now?
*What should the people think?
*How should I support my elevated live style?

Their brains have shut down so long ago they are not even thinking anymore, they are merely creatures of habit at this point.

The male ego is an interesting phenomenon and LD$ Inc is very good at stroking the male ego to keep it up and going.

(I don't mean to be crude but I'm just trying to simply explain male ego.)

But you know the old saying.
Behind each and every successful male stays a greedy woman.
(I don't mean to be crude but I'm just trying to simply explain female greed.)

Tom Philips is why you don't see high ups leaving. In too deep, lots of kids, grandkids all tbm. They don't dare leave I think.

There are all types in this world, but I would say that we are all predisposed to believe, weather its Islam, Buddah, Jesus, Joseph etc. u get the picture. Some have it stronger than others, most of here not to strong (lol). Just my take, that's why u will never see the church fail, it will continue to grow etc. Most people can't look at what their whole life is wrapped up in with any scrutiny. Just my take! I would actually hate to see my kids leave the church, I know its what makes them happy with their friends and all the social that goes with it, I personally just hated it.

My Dad, who lived to be 90 seemed at the end to wonder about his faith I think. I know he believed in God...or a higher power at least. He was in awe of the miracle of planting a seed and seeing it grow. didn't believe it was just happenstance. he had been an EQP and served on HC, was beloved by his friends in an out of the church, but was ruined financially by a Mormon shyster and was not able to enjoy their retirement years and then after Mom died, got every lonely. I don't think there was much belief left in the Mormon gospel by then.

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/26/2014 11:51PM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Don't read subject line above it's really rude, but absolutely correct.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 12:30AM by gentlestrength.

I can't help but think that after seeing the evil twinkle in monsons eyes(seriously is it just me or does he look evil to anyone else??), that surely he knows he is lying his ass off. It's like this arrogant smirk he perpetually has on his face that he has the masses full conviction.

But then again, like everyone says, I know plenty of Mormons who are Mormons through and through and just "know the church is true". It's not too long ago, I recall saying that statement but I can't ever say I felt the spirit burning inside me, guiding me.

OMG I've got to tell you this story, for all you newbies.

A wonderful exmormon attorney in Utah helped me for absolutely free (that is SO RARE among lawyers...) on a legal case and he is a published author - you probably can find his book(s) on Amazon, his name is Dennis Farley.

He told me and others on this board how he went up the ladder of Mormon authorities regarding his disbelief in the Book of Mormon. He wanted to experience how people of faith handled discrepancies in order to help his own flagging testimony.

At every level starting with his bishop and ending with Dallin Oaks, the brethren told him they DID NOT BELIEVE!

Yes, you are reading that correctly. THey confessed to also doubting/disbelieving and dismissed it like you would a flaw in an otherwise perfect diamond. He received the usual pap we hear, such as,

"It's a test! You find out Joseph Smith is a bad actor and do you drop the gospel, or do you endure to the end?"

"We'll all know in the millenium....or the CK...or, um, the future...."

Farley was absolutely flabbergasted and ended up leaving the church and beginning a new life as an individual of integrity and a father of eight--he did not want to be like any of the leaders he was told to obey.

We've lost touch, but if he is reading this - Hey Dennis, I hope you have found peace at last.

Best

Anagrammy



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 12:22AM by anagrammy.

I've heard members say often "Well, if it's not true it's still the best thing out there." I think the truly, completely deluded don't care if it's true or not. They are happy with the status quo as are most people. If it's not true they would rather pretend it is than rock the boat.

Well as you all probably know, I am very cynical with this topic. I believe that the HIGHER UPS, not the Joe Blow TBMs, but the higher ups have NEVER BELIEVED starting with JS. I think they saw a great con that paid off in several ways including culturally; the TBM HIGHER UPS get jobs and of course they don't want to give up the entire idea of BEING A GOD. Since they know they won't really be one after death, the pretend to be gods on earth......Oh the brethren! Let's all bow down and kiss their stinky butts, NOT! GAG!!!

confused123 - MONSON looks seriously EVIL to me, always has. Something in his eyes......CREEPY!

QWE - "An Area Authority left the church last year and he said he genuinely believed the whole time." - then WHY did he leave?

CapitolMoroni -
"Tom Philips is why you don't see high ups leaving. In too deep, lots of kids, grandkids all tbm. They don't dare leave I think." - all this says to me is that TOM PHILIPS has integrity and these other ones DON'T. This is LIFE we are talking about. It is too short to live a LIE!!!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 01:42AM by verilyverily.