Hi, I'm spooky. My son is joining the Mormon church. I'm pretty upset about it, as I feel he's doing it for the wrong reasons. I left the church as a teen after much study into the church's origins and the faulty "teachings" of Joseph Smith.

Now my youngest is away from home for the first time, going to college out of town, has a Mormon girlfriend, and is one missionary visit away from being eligible to be baptized. He had scheduled the baptism for this week but I talked him out of it.

My question is this, maybe aimed at younger people here on the board: What can I say to him to help him stop and consider what he's doing? I've purchased a few books for him, but he has no religious training so showing him how the BofM differs from the Bible isn't going to help much.

Any ideas?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 02:28PM by spooky.

Send him a link to this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI

If that doesn't take care of it, then there must be some huge emotional reason (romantic love?) that he's going through with it. Hopefully he doesn't live in the Intermountain West, does he?

Mr. Neutron Wrote:
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> Send him a link to this video:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rn1iGvXU0dI
>
> If that doesn't take care of it, then there must
> be some huge emotional reason (romantic love?)
> that he's going through with it. Hopefully he
> doesn't live in the Intermountain West, does he?

Thank you. I'm listening to it now (wonderful!) and I've included the link addy in a package I'm taking to him. It is an emotional reason...a girl, of course! She's 18, has never dated a boy before, and wants to get married in the temple.

Yes, he does live in Utah. Gah. My fault. Even though I left the church 30 years ago, and it was an agonizing, horrid event for me, I chose to raise my kids here so they could have extended family. Now I wonder if it was a mistake.

On the bright side...

Even if he does get baptized, odds are he'll be inactive within the first year.

sonoma Wrote:
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> On the bright side...
>
> Even if he does get baptized, odds are he'll be
> inactive within the first year.

True that. Especially if the girl breaks up with him.

Thing is, I'm also trying to teach him how to make decisions that will affect the rest of his life. Research, time testing, etc.

Send him to MormonThink.com, that should help.

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
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> Send him to MormonThink.com, that should help.

I'll go there myself, thanks. Lighthouse Ministries is an organization that sent me material (30 years ago) when I was considering leaving the church. Having resources that DON'T point to other religions is key for me.

Have you told him that the church expects 10% of his gross income if he becomes a mormon? If he makes $50,000 a year, thats $400/month to the church, $5000 a year, and they don't provide anything in return for that. Its gone forever.
And that if he marries in the temple, he will be expected to wear a special type of underwear all the time? He should ask his girlfriend and the missionaries about the underwear.

Brethren,adieu Wrote:
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> Have you told him that the church expects 10% of
> his gross income if he becomes a mormon? If he
> makes $50,000 a year, thats $400/month to the
> church, $5000 a year, and they don't provide
> anything in return for that. Its gone forever.
> And that if he marries in the temple, he will be
> expected to wear a special type of underwear all
> the time? He should ask his girlfriend and the
> missionaries about the underwear.

I told him a few days ago. He had no idea. None. He didn't even know if Mormons were considered Christian. Didn't know what tithing was (truly I raised my kids as heathens...don't judge...lol). He didn't know I couldn't be there for his wedding or temple work. He didn't know about garments.

Anything else that really would disturb a young, 18-year old guy?!!

He's already bugged about the church's stance on gay marriage (he supports it) and the church's stance on blacks holding the priesthood (he's hugely anti-racism). Since he has strong social equality views, that's the first stuff I hit him with.

Keep in mind, though, that if I appear too antagonistic about this decision he'll probably join just to be rebellious. He is, after all, still a kid. So I'm supporting his decision while the rest of my non-Mormon family talks with him and sends him materials. Any advise you give me will go to him in a package from my brother, for instance.

Aghghghghg. Reverse psychology is so easy to spot and so hard to pull off effectively.

Maybe watching the Book of Mormon musical??? BTW, I can't get the "I believe" song out of my head today...

Descending Gradually Wrote:
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> Maybe watching the Book of Mormon musical??? BTW,
> I can't get the "I believe" song out of my head
> today...


I still have "Saturday's Warrior" songs stuck in my head 40 years later. So, uh, good luck with that.

I can't ever understand how anyone can join such a sexist organization that is so blatant about how they treat their women.

If he feels strongly about women's rights, gay rights, or even civil rights(since TSCC got on the equality bandwagon so late and even now preaches to marry within your own race), then surely you can find a way to reach him.

If he doesn't, then I guess he'll fit right in. :(

Edit: I see he does. Tell him for me he's helping to set the country back by 50 years. Or more.

Okay, that won't get you anywhere with him, but that's what I'd tell him.
They instruct their members in reverse psychology and other manipulative tactics there in that cult. Stop lying, be honest.

Parenting fail.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 02:54PM by WinksWinks.

WinksWinks Wrote:
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> I can't ever understand how anyone can join such a
> sexist organization that is so blatant about how
> they treat their women.
>
> If he feels strongly about women's rights, gay
> rights, or even civil rights(since TSCC got on the
> equality bandwagon so late and even now preaches
> to marry within your own race), then surely you
> can find a way to reach him.
>
> If he doesn't, then I guess he'll fit right in.
> :(

The sexism issue is why I left all religions. I don't really want a paternalistic view of life dictating my own life.

My biggest fear isn't that he'll join. Even if he joins, he'll probably end up leaving. But if he joins, gets married in the temple and has kids and then leaves the church, his entire life could be ruined.

But when you're 18 and a hot girl is talking you into it so you can get married in the temple and finally have sex? That's what I'm up against. Sigh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 02:50PM by spooky.

He's young, so videos can be even better than too much reading for a lot of the young. Forget comparing to the Bible or other religions. Even show him the Southpark episodes Joseph Smith and Book of Mormon, if that is all he will watch. lol

The other Sofia Wrote:
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> He's young, so videos can be even better than too
> much reading for a lot of the young. Forget
> comparing to the Bible or other religions. Even
> show him the Southpark episodes Joseph Smith and
> Book of Mormon, if that is all he will watch. lol


It's his favorite episode. Gah. Anything else on YouTube that would inspire him?

Not to be pessimistic, but if his heart is being tugged by a spiffy clean 18 year-old girl, you have a huge uphill climb here.

That said, ask him if he knows about what goes on in the temple. Ask him if he knows that he will be asked there to "consecrate" EVERYTHING he has or may ever have not to any god he may believe in, but to the church itself.

Ask him if he knows where the Book of Abraham came from (and ask that he watch the excellent hour-long YouTube video on it).

Ask him if any of the missionaries working with him can point to any archaeological support for the Book of Mormon.

Ask him if he can get access to a financial statement showing where the tithing money he will be expected to pay is being spent.

Ask him if he really thinks Earth is 6000 years old.

Most of all, tell him you love him, and that love gives you a warm feeling. Then ask him if the missionaries are asking him to support all he is being told not with hard facts, but with those same warm feelings.

Good luck!

left4good Wrote:
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> Not to be pessimistic, but if his heart is being
> tugged by a spiffy clean 18 year-old girl, you
> have a huge uphill climb here.
>
> That said, ask him if he knows about what goes on
> in the temple. Ask him if he knows that he will
> be asked there to "consecrate" EVERYTHING he has
> or may ever have not to any god he may believe in,
> but to the church itself.
>
> Ask him if he knows where the Book of Abraham came
> from (and ask that he watch the excellent
> hour-long YouTube video on it).
>
> Ask him if any of the missionaries working with
> him can point to any archaeological support for
> the Book of Mormon.
>
> Ask him if he can get access to a financial
> statement showing where the tithing money he will
> be expected to pay is being spent.
>
> Ask him if he really thinks Earth is 6000 years
> old.
>
> Most of all, tell him you love him, and that love
> gives you a warm feeling. Then ask him if the
> missionaries are asking him to support all he is
> being told not with hard facts, but with those
> same warm feelings.
>
> Good luck!

I told him this: The love you're feeling from having a relationship with God isn't dependent upon Mormonism. You can have that feeling without religion, or with any religion. But making the most important decision of your life based on emotion, instead of logic and reasoning, is a mistake. You need to do your investigation of the church based on both emotional feelings, good and bad, and logic.

So, great advice, I hope, since I gave it to him. You're right about the uphill battle. But since my son is this girl's first boyfriend, I'm sure it won't last...right?! When the interest in the girl fades, I'm hoping the interest in the church will fade.

I'll ask him everything else you brought up as well. Thank you so much!

Richard Packham has a very good site with lots of information (http://packham.n4m.org/#MORMONISM) He has a "tract" detailing things for those who are investigating mormonism with info that the missionaries won't tell you, which might be helpful, http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

Finally Free! Wrote:
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> Richard Packham has a very good site with lots of
> information (http://packham.n4m.org/#MORMONISM) He
> has a "tract" detailing things for those who are
> investigating mormonism with info that the
> missionaries won't tell you, which might be
> helpful, http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm

I just copied the entire pamphlet for him. Thank you!

I have a pretty open relationship with my son so I didn't get too upset with him looking into it. Afterall, he is an adult. But I did ask him for a couple of things and he agreed.

First, take the lessons but allow me to give a counter lesson for each using LDS sources.

Two, give it one year before joining.

The lessons went forward as did my counter lessons. He had a lot of questions for the missionaries. His girlfriend was with him for the lessons and she wasn't at all happy with the legit questions he was raising. This went on for maybe two months and the girl started taking questions the missionaries couldn't answer to her father. He had no answers either and so I believe her family convenced her that he wasn't marriage material. My son saw the breakup coming but by this time he knew there were serious problems with TSCC and she wasn't worth it.

I wasn't trying to break them up, although that's what happened. I told him at the get-go that he would have my full support if he decided to join TSCC and marry the girl. Thankfully it didn't come to that and he immediately lost interest in continuing with the lessons.

Been there Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have a pretty open relationship with my son so I
> didn't get too upset with him looking into it.
> Afterall, he is an adult. But I did ask him for a
> couple of things and he agreed.
>
> First, take the lessons but allow me to give a
> counter lesson for each using LDS sources.
>
> Two, give it one year before joining.
>
> The lessons went forward as did my counter
> lessons. He had a lot of questions for the
> missionaries. His girlfriend was with him for
> the lessons and she wasn't at all happy with the
> legit questions he was raising. This went on for
> maybe two months and the girl started taking
> questions the missionaries couldn't answer to her
> father. He had no answers either and so I believe
> her family convenced her that he wasn't marriage
> material. My son saw the breakup coming but by
> this time he knew there were serious problems with
> TSCC and she wasn't worth it.
>
> I wasn't trying to break them up, although that's
> what happened. I told him at the get-go that he
> would have my full support if he decided to join
> TSCC and marry the girl. Thankfully it didn't come
> to that and he immediately lost interest in
> continuing with the lessons.

That's a perfect way of handling it. With my son, I just get a feeling that he'd rebel if I was anything but supportive. I've always told him that religion is a personal choice that I feel he should make when he's an adult, which is why I didn't raise my kids in religion. Now he's doing just that, so it wouldn't jive for me to then counter what he's learning. I'm relying on other family members to do that, so my relationship with him stays on firm footing. Like I said, he's away from home for the first time. He's also very naive and still quite "young" for 18 years old.

I'm so glad you managed the situation as well as you did. Way to go, super mom! I hope the same for myself!

Ok I just have to say this: I hope you are supporting him in taking his own spiritual journey, but have made it clear that you had very good reasons for leaving the LDS church and those have not changed. Make it clear you don't recommend it. I have a daughter that age - I worry she'll end up a Muslim or something, and I see the idea behind your strategy. It's a tough age to parent. I think your best bet is to make sure he talks to any well-educated friends about this. Does he know any exMos or friends who almost joined? There are some great thinkers on here and other ExMo sites who are still in their teens or early 20s. Does he realize what the official doctrine on evolution is? That science clearly refutes that, Noah's flood, etc.? Any cursory knowledge of Egyptology makes it clear the Book of Abraham is a fraud, too.

It's likely that even if he goes through with it, he and the girl will be expected to serve missions almost immediately, and you should insist he read something like Rough Stone Rolling so he knows what he's preaching. That might work. I'm guessing showing him the countless threads about broken marriages and heartaches when one spouse leaves the church are probably best timed for when the two of them get in a fight...

Good luck!

vh65 Wrote:
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> Ok I just have to say this: I hope you are
> supporting him in taking his own spiritual
> journey, but have made it clear that you had very
> good reasons for leaving the LDS church and those
> have not changed. Make it clear you don't
> recommend it. I have a daughter that age - I
> worry she'll end up a Muslim or something, and I
> see the idea behind your strategy. It's a tough
> age to parent. I think your best bet is to make
> sure he talks to any well-educated friends about
> this. Does he know any exMos or friends who
> almost joined? There are some great thinkers on
> here and other ExMo sites who are still in their
> teens or early 20s. Does he realize what the
> official doctrine on evolution is? That science
> clearly refutes that, Noah's flood, etc.? Any
> cursory knowledge of Egyptology makes it clear the
> Book of Abraham is a fraud, too.
>
> It's likely that even if he goes through with it,
> he and the girl will be expected to serve missions
> almost immediately, and you should insist he read
> something like Rough Stone Rolling so he knows
> what he's preaching. That might work. I'm
> guessing showing him the countless threads about
> broken marriages and heartaches when one spouse
> leaves the church are probably best timed for when
> the two of them get in a fight...
>
> Good luck!


At least Muslims believe that not all people are meant to be Muslim, or Allah would have made it so (from the Koran). So they don't proselytize. I hate that.

But yes, my role here is to be the supportive mother. No matter what he decides. We've all talked and decided the roles of others, such as friends and other family members, will be to present the other side of the argument. But his dad and I need to be on his side no matter what and we've promised him that if he'll wait to be baptized until we can be there, which is in a few months (not really, but, you know), and if he learns from people who have left the church and not just the missionaries and still decides to join, we'll support his decision 100%.

I would give him the book, "The Complete Heretic's Guide to Western Religion Book One: The Mormons", by David Fitzgerald. It's an easy read, and can be comprehended by those who don't have a strong LDS or religious background. I would not recommend it for a questioning member, as the author unapologetically and irreverently calls bullshit where he sees it. In spite of the crass(ish) tone, it's well sourced and covers all hot issues: history, doctrine, culture, and politics.

Good luck!

There are a lot of great resources out there.

My favorite is the "Top 10 Mormon Probelms Explained" video on YouTube. In two hours it really hits the high points.

The Letter to a CES Director (http://cesletter.com) is also a great read.

Perhaps if your son knew that over here in the UK the LDS are being investigated for tax evasion he might start to have second thoughts. Would any genuine God fearing religion be engaged in criminal activities?
Remind him or show him, if he isn’t aware of it, of the 12th article of faith:

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

Perhaps their articles of faith don’t apply when money is involved

I would tell him, “I will respect your choice in religion as long as you are willing to study BOTH sides. If Mormonism is not a cult you should be willing to read these. If they are full of false information, you should be able to see it fairly easily. If your girlfriend truly loves you then she should be willing to let you put off baptism right now and allow you time to study the church so you can make an INFORMED decision.”

The following sources are secular sources (no Christian agenda) that I highly recommend. All by former (or current) Mormons. If he is willing to read them, I guarantee he will NOT convert to Mormonism. That being said, he MAY still join the church just to try and make his girlfriend happy, but at least he knows what he is getting into. I suggest having him read them in the following order (especially Packham’s page). If he’s not a reader, then have him watch the video first.

http://packham.n4m.org/tract.htm
http://cesletter.com
MormonThink.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ac_fLUHiBw


Good luck!

If he's only 18 won't he be expected to serve a mission? That's two years before he can get married to this girl and finally have sex.

Also explain that converts and males who do not serve missions are regarded as less-than perfect Mormons and he will likely never fit in or be well received.

"Son, you ain't getting laid for a LOOOOOOONG time. lol"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/27/2014 05:55PM by earlyrm.

One point of caution - be sure to put your relationship with him first. If he's not willing to listen to you at this point, he's not willing to listen to you and it's not worth damaging your relationship.

It looks like people have done a great job of listing some of the best resources if he is willing to look at things which he may or may not be willing to do.

Garments. He needs to know once he's baptized they'll want him to serve a mission and that means going to the temple and wearing garments for the rest of his life. For an 18 year old guy, that might give him pause. Make sure you google for pictures of what they look like.