So people both on anti-LDS boards and on pro-LDS boards keep saying that they don't understand how it can be fraud if no one forced the victims to pay tithing. I think that the proper response should be to ask how can Bernie Madoff have been convicted of fraud when no one forced his victims to invest.

Inform them that if someone forces someone else to give up their money, it's typically called robbery. The people who are dismissing this as frivolous or meaningless don't understand what fraud is or don't understand the angle that the prosecution is taking. Good luck, Tom!

Yes I find it comical that TBMs don't seem to understand at all what fraud is. No surprise Utah is the capital of fraud victims.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2014 12:53AM by toast.

Lol. Yep.

joesmithsleftteste Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lol. Yep.

yep yep!

Shows how well that power of discernment is working out for them!

They redefine it in terms they can argue against. They are accusing us of (insert straw man here).

Many folks are making the fraud angle too complicated. Its fraud in many states in the US because TSCC failed to disclose the entire story about certain aspects of its conversion pitch. I've posted this twice the last 2 days, but it bares repeating:

"You are all missing the point. I posted yesterday and explained the fraud approach. You are making it too complicated. TSCC commits fraud with every conversion when it convinces people to join and give them money without telling them that there is a credible, scientifically supported, generally accepted explanation for how the native americans got here that has nothing to do with the B of M. Same with the B of A. Here is my post from yesterday:

"I am a lawyer. I have been in practice as a litigator for over 37 years. I appeared in the highest appellate court in my state in the early 1980s on a fraud case that defined fraud and constructive fraud and that case has been repeatedly cited ever since in other fraud cases discussing the definition and application of the fraud law in my state. Your thoughts are on point with the following refinement that so many people seem to be missing the last 24 hours and which may carry the UK case. TSCC committed fraud when it sent its legions of missionaries out to convince people to join up and pay money WHEN IT FAILED TO EXPLAIN TO THE INVESTIGATORS THAT THERE WERE ALTERNATE VIEW POINTS ABOUT THE B OF M, BOOK OF ABRAHAM AND RELATED TOPICS. One has a legal duty to disclose known, significant facts about a transaction where money will change hands if the seller knows that those facts are significant enough to alter the buyers decision about the transaction. By failing to explain that there are alternative viewpoints on some of its core doctrine TSCC committed fraud every time it converted a new member and took their money. If the law in the UK is remotely similar to the above and the prosecutors focus on that simple issue, Monson and TSCC could well be convicted of fraud. If that happens the plaintiff's bar could well pile on with class action suits that would get us all a refund, with interest, of our donations. It has been apparent to me for many years as the DNA evidence accumulated and the B of A was debunked that TSCC was committing fraud over and over with every conversion. The only thing that has surprised me is that it took this long to finally get a case before a court. Fight on Tom. You're on the right track. I wish I was a UK lawyer with a law license, I'd come help you."

Many posters have stated that it would be impossible to nail TSCC for fraud in the US because religion and religious ideas are heavily protected. That's balogna. During the course of my years practicing law I sued cults. I took millions off of them in damages and refunds. Most of them will do anything to avoid the scrutiny of full blown discovery and a trial and they did. They paid up to settle most of the time.

Tom's case should be only the beginning. What needs to happen next, after things play out in the UK is a barrage of suits in this country using the civil fraud theories we have to start pounding the TSCC about why they failed to disclose ALL of the information about the B of M and the B of A before they took people's money. They didn't disclose. That simple. It has nothing to do with religious beliefs or what Monson believed or said or anything like that. It is a simple legal question. Did they fail to disclose significant information before they talked people out of their money? The answer is yes. That's fraud. The essays are being driven by the lawyers that know all of this and is a belated attempt to start disclosing. It's too little to late and is a further admission that they didn't fully disclose. On cross I would ask Monson or preferably Oaks one simple question: Isn't it true your missionaries have never disclosed the content of the essays to converts before baptism? The answer is "yes that's true." And that is the fraud case, end of trial. Directed verdict. The stupidest thing TSCC has done in their entire history was to write and post the essays. Huge admission of failure to disclose and therefore huge problem trying to fend off the obvious fraud they have committed. We have recourse. We just need to get organized and go after TSCC until they agree to set up a settlement fund and start making refunds, just like the Catholics have had to do with their sex abuse cases. The key is discovery. Get the right case filed. Plead for punitive damages, which opens up the question of their finances and then demand they produce 20 years worth of audit financial statements on all of their dealings. They will never do that. They will pay up, I can absolutely guaranty it."

^^^

thanks for re-posting this - it cannot be said enough

+1

Please keep posting it.

The Mormons are saying that it's not fraud unless you were forced to pay. Being forced to pay is robbery. Being induced to pay with bad information is fraud.

Interesting post thanks. TBMs (and some of the media) are dismissing this out of hand as a ludicrous attempt for PR and claim it will be laughed out of court. I do see your point - this COULD get a whole lot more serious for TSCC.

choice: pay or go to hell

Or burn as stubble.
Now bring your cheque book

Thanks Needtostayhidden, that is definately the clearest view I have read so far, as I have felt VERY confused NOT knowing what was really going on. I don't consider myself a total dummy, but have little knowlege concerning the law, other than TV, which I don't beleive 90% of the time! But it seemed to me that if it reached the stage where the UK Judge felt there was a case to answer and issued a summons, there must be SOMETHING in it. Your explanation makes it clear. THANKYOU!!! I will be able to follow it all a LOT better now!

Will you please do me a favour and continue to post as this unfolds so this non-lawyer type individual can keep up? Thanks!!!

Excellent post "needtostayhidden"

This opened my eyes to another layer and possible implication of this case. This case could possibly change the missionary program as we know it and possibly cut off future revenue stream for the Church. It could possibly explain why the Church is diversifying assets so much. They need to be able to survive independently w/o the massive tithing "revenue" from membership (just like a retired person lives w/o salary from a job)

Being behind on tithing usually means

No temple recommend==

No attendence at temple weddings

Sometimes not being allowed to bless babies

Let's name some other ways tithing is extorted from members.

They are told that they can't get to heaven if they don't pay and they are told to pay tithing before paying debts, before paying bills, and before buying food for their children. Their tithing demands have cost people their retirements, their health, and have even cost some their lives.

When someone FORCES you to give them money it's not called
fraud, it's called robbery.

Fraud is when they fool you into voluntarily giving them money
based on bogus claims.

I think the point has also been made that, due to internet scrutiny and threat of criminal charges, TSCC has changed their doctrinal narrative, no matter how quietly they have done so. For example, they have made changes in the scriptures, such as the BOM frontispiece, that contradict what the BOM itself says, and also what the mishies are instructed to teach investigators. Seems like that also qualifies as fraud, under current law.

Fantastic post "needtostayhidden". Hope it starts a wave of suits in Australia too.

I am sure that they will regret the lamanite DNA one particularly

I got guilted into paying tithing on my gross rather than net income at tithing settlement by the line "Do you want gross or net blessings?".

It was made crystal clear that payment on net income was insufficient if I wanted to get to the CK.

Yes! It was made quite clear that the number, amount, and quality of 'blessings' that you would receive was based directly on the amount/proportion of your tithing 'contributions'. As long as I can remember, there was at least one major talk/presentation at church every month (usually sacrament meeting) telling the people to pay, pay, pay.

It's all about the money to the Corp, and ONLY about the money.

The fraud is that members think the 10% rate is necessary to keep the church going, and that much of that money is charity. They should be sued to open their books. If members saw how poorly their hard earned was spent, they would be less eager to open their wallets for the Lard's work.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/07/2014 08:04AM by axeldc.

Spot on.

I remember as a child being terrified of Tithing settlement for weeks in advance. Thinking of myself as a little girl afraid to go into that meeting makes me sick. That adults were teaching me feel that much guilt and fear around paying 10 percent of what little money I had makes me angry too. It was brainwashing. However, at the time the church had no transparency, its great to see how things are changing.

Very informative. Thanks for the legal input.