RFM poster Summer mentioned that one the reasons that the British government might be interested in stopping Mormonism as a fraud in that country is that the British government subsidies charities by making donations tax-deductible.

The same thing happens in the US where a large amount of money comes in. Most Mormons want others to think that they are well-off, but they are pretty much like everyone else.

The Mormon church is draining the coffers of the US government and taking money from taxpayers of all denominations. I am not arguing that people shouldn't be allowed to contribute to the church if that’s what they want. But the government should know the members of the church are essentially required to pay tithing. TITHING IS A REQUIREMENT, regardless of what some people in the church are saying to protect the church.

Try not paying it. You will be barred/restricted from parts of your worship, it puts a partition between you and your family (temple), you will be shunned if others know about it--they will see you as less then. You will be told you are going to hell, anything lower than the celestial kingdom. Finally, you will be called in at the end of the year and be chastised by your bishop if you are found lacking in your donations. The bishops can even restrict you again, and they do, and often make plans to “catch you up” on your donations.

Many people are told to pay tithing before they pay essential bills, buy food, take care of medical expenses, provide for their children. This comes with the intangible promise that god will provide for everything--open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing that even Amway cannot match. If you are, or have been a member, you KNOW this for a fact. Apologist need to stop lying about it.

The following are ways that the Mormon church pulls money from the taxpayer, beyond being 501c3:

1. Food stamps--members on food stamps, and the number is substantial, despite what the church says about taking care of their own. Members will still pay tithing, fast offerings, missionary fund, etc, while still collecting these public benefits. Also, they will donate hours to the church per week, working in callings, going to the temple--and this could be time spent working to make up differences in pay. It’s a re-funneling of funds and labor from the government to the church. Tithing money could be used to be more self-reliant.

2. Housing--Section 8 Housing, etc.

3. Unemployment benefits. I have seen members pay on this money faithfully.

4. Subsidized Federal Student Loans--Yes, in school I have seen students, and families pay on this money. The subsidy IS government money. This applies to not just the poor, but people who become doctors, dentists, lawyers, and business people.

5. Tax deductions. In the US you can make donations and they are tax deductible. If you fit in certain tax brackets, you can receive a refund on all this money--which one might pay tithing on again.

6. More?

The church is being enriched by public programs while at the same time claiming government interference in all things. The top 15, and everyone for that matter, has to know this is going on. How many millions or billions has the church siphoned from the US government over the years?

more:

as we saw with Rmoney, there are tax laws & rules whereby the Very Rich side-track their income into little-known/ little-used trusts, which is essentially parking your income in tax never-never land.

We understand that's why Rmoney didn't disclose more than 1 years FIT return(s).



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2014 01:39PM by guynoirprivateeye.

Think BYU gets a few federal grants? My guess is they do.

How about police/fire protection/emergency services....including the defense of their country...without paying property taxes on their real estate empire?

Personally I think it is much worse than that, with the LDS church being used as a laundromat to avoid taxes on their profitable businesses, the insider companies and people that are consulting them, and the companies and people that are in contracts with LDS Inc for anything they could possibly think up.

I think the philosophy here is bass-ackwards. The money doesn't belong to the government in the first place. Saying that the LDS church is costing taxpayers X dollars is a fine headline, but that's not the reality -- the LDS church isn't taking any money from taxpayers. Instead, it's preventing money from entering federal (and in some cases local or state coffers depending on real estate tax rules) funds.

The way you're stating it makes it appear that the church is costing taxpayers (ie, federal grants or federal support). That's not the case, and the distinction is critical to those in the right or center that you may wish to persuade.

technically Correct, but no one could argue that religion pays their Fair Share of the costs of gov't, local or federal.

that individuals use religion as a tax shelter Seals The Deal.

analogy: the Washington Legislature just voted Boeing a 9 BILLION tax avoidance/evasion in order to keep (certain PARTS of) airplane manufacture/assembly here.
GE uses similar 'incentives', which provisions result in Warren Buffet paying a lower tax rate than a secretary/clerk in one of his companies...

Does anyone think that's 'justice' or 'just us"?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2014 01:53PM by guynoirprivateeye.

It is costing the taxpayers, directly.

LDS Inc uses roads, bridges, and publicly educated people etc. to run their empire.

And yes, us taxpayers need the programs our dollars fund.

Businesses that hide behind the title of 'church' do cost us all.

You're failing to grasp my point. It's not costing us directly. There is not an LDS surcharge on my state or federal taxes. For that matter, the church itself does not use roads -- its employees might.

What is occurring, instead, is that people can get a tax deduction for their tithing, and in some cases an exemption on real estate taxes. That is a far cry from "Costing the taxpayers directly."

Unless, of course, you want to go whole-hog and claim that everybody with a 501c3 is costing taxpayers directly. That would include the NRA ILA, GreenPeace, the Sierra Club, PETA, the Salvation Army, and a host of others. I'm personally in favor of entirely eliminating income tax exemptions, so don't think I'm trying to defend the church here. But the church is by no means unique (see the list of orgs above), and stating that it's costing taxpayers directly gives the impression that it is somehow unusual.

I doesn't matter if you define taxes through a libertarian philosophy or not--all of those examples enrich the church.

I think you are failing to understand my point.

LDS Inc is not greenpeace, or really any real church.

It is a hedge fund with temples, and unknown persons profiting from it.

Yes, having their employees using public assets and services is LDS Inc using those assets and services to do business.

I do think charities and real churches should be given a bit of a break. With that stated, I think that LDS Inc is a criminal enterprise, rivaling the largest organized crime families and drug cartels in the world.

The taxpayer funded service they most deserve is a jail cell.

I agree, and I agree with your term of laundering.

If people can't see that, they are in denial.

Even when I was leadership positions in the church this bothered me.

Again, you have to prove that. Greenpeace spends over half of its funds on fund-raising. The Red Cross's CEO draws a salary in excess of a million USD a year. You can make claims about the LDS church all you want -- that it doesn't help the people it takes money from, that it benefits only the few at the top, and so forth -- but these exact same accusations hold true for many other purported 'charities.' Singling out the church doesn't do any good and just makes you sound kooky.

Another way COLDS siphons money is when they tell the higher ups not to disclose certain reimbursements.

The missionary payment program was significantly restructured several years ago so that you make a "donation" to support your son or daughter on a mission. This is probably the real reason behind the equal payment program that was instituted many years ago. I believe the church even asked the IRS for an exemption ruling on this, which is publicly available for review.

This is a clever way to reduce the overall cost of sending kids on missions--make the cost of feeding/clothing/housing your son or daughter for 2 years a tax deduction rather than a non-deductible expenditure as it is in every other case.

Shows the church's awareness of using the the tax rules to their benefit.

But it's still a huge ripoff fraud. When my siblings went on their missions, my parents & grandparents paid far more than the ridiculously small spending stipends my siblings received.

in practical terms, LDS DOES syphon Money (resources) from the public purse.

whether it's actual dollars, accounts, or 'credits' into the church bank or not, it is resources that TSCC avails themselves to, funded by taxpayers.

BY & his estate were examples that ChurchCo would like to forget/live down, even tho there have been Slight Changes since then.

What about the issue of putting "donations" into sub accounts within the ward/stake and then taking that money out and reassigning it as the church paying for services/supplies/etc. to phantom entities? All kinds of fun things go on with the hidden financials of lds corp. the Lard's money launderer.

I live in an area with a concentrated LDS population. My kids used to play a game where they would count all the LDS steeples they could see from the freeway exit to our home. It was at least 45.

Let's say someone built about 8 homes instead of each of those churches. The taxes in my city would be about 1500 to 2000 per home, or $12000-16000 of taxes every year from that same plot of land. But instead, a church is built, and no taxes paid on that land. That's $12000-16000 removed from the city and education budget for every church. Let's multiply that times 20, and it's 240k-320k less in taxes. My city has deteriorating roads and overcrowded schools. And you can bet that my taxes are higher because the households have to pay more in taxes because they have to make up the difference. I am subsidizing the LDS church.

What is really important right now is how much TSCC contributes to the UK economy. If TSCC paid their fair share of taxes then the UK government would be inclined to step in and specifically exclude religions from the fraud act. If TSCC is a drain on government revenue through generous tax exemptions then TSCC has no leverage to influence government policy.

Objectively, TSCC does very little other than build temples and transfer money to Salt Lake City. On a cost/benefit analysis the government is better off staying out of the court case.

For real charities the government is happy to offer tax deductabily and/or rebates, because the funds are being used to meet social objectives such as caring for disadvantaged people. The government know that a tax rebate is the same thing as direct funding. The social benefits for perpetuating a known fraud are negative, so if the case succeeds then I would expect the UK government to review the religious status that TSCC currently holds.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/08/2014 10:10PM by The Invisible Green Potato.