Recently I had a discussion with a group of friends about the fraud case, and no matter how many times I tried to present the uncomfortable truth that the church IS hiding information and it IS wrong, no one wanted to touch it with a ten foot pole. I recently disclosed leaving the church prior to having this conversation, so the discussion kept centering around how sad they were our family had left the church, they remember the spiritual experiences we had, they know the church is true based on these experiences ...yada yada yada. And of course, their favorite, manipulative victim cries of "whyyyyy would you persecute our dearly beloved church, you are hurting us, we just can't understand why you would do this ..." Since no one wanted to even think the church would hide something from them, I finally posed the hypothetical --"OK, IF the church was to hide information, would that be okay?" One friend had the courage to respond, and probably sums up the reason it is so difficult to get TBMs to see what's right in front of their friggin face...she says "My answer is yes. I know there are things I don't know, and that is okay. "

I was speechless. Even as a full believer I never reached this level of brainwashing. It was so sad, and depressing to me.

That is what I've been told, too. In the words of my TBM wife: »I don't want to know!» when I asked if she cared for the truth. It is so sad, and so difficult to understand how anyone could think like that.

I'm in the same boat, my DW said the exact same thing. She said none of it matters, I've had my spiritual witness.

And so you are out of the cult and they are in, continually self administering the indoctrination.

I don't believe for a second there really is an "Outer Darkness" but I have have seen "Inner Darkness" and it lives in so many TBMs that I couldn't count. They are all on spiritual life support in the ICU (Internal Chains Unit)--willing themselves into ignorance.

The weird thing is that in case of my wife she realizes she is in a spiritual desert, but she thinks it's because she doesn't go to temple, and because I've fallen away from TSCC, etc. And not because that is what TSCC does to its members.. it suspends an individual's spiritual development.

Of course. Everyone was told the church is perfect, but the members are not. So it's always the member's fault.

This is my situation at my home. I no longer believe this fraud of a church. Have not for some time......but, my TBM husband cannot even have a conversation of the smallest amount. Bring up church and his narrow-mindedness and tunnel vision really shows. And I am not attacking...just wanting to have a conversation....but, it is impossible with people with closed minds....sad

I know what you're saying, exactly! That is my predicament also. Just a peaceful conversation, except "peaceful" is not possible. No matter how I bring up the topic, as soon as I do it's as if a different entity takes over my wife as she immediately goes on an attack, and so at least the rest of the day is shot.

The claws, or cries, come out at the very mention of anything critical of the church. It's like I want to scream, "don't you remember? The people are NOT The church. Stop acting like I am attacking YOU."

Change the context of the conversation. This is the biggest problem with TSSC. Not only does it teach nonsense. It doesn't teach sense. Wives within TSSC are in a spiritual desert. They truly believe that outside of TSSC they will also be in a spiritual desert, only worse, because they've got the added sin of giving up on TSSC. They believe that their only hope lies with TSSC; and their only obstacle to the success that TSSC promises is their own weaknesses. Their confidence is totally shot. You can't engage people like this concerning the objective truth or falsity of TSSC. They're bereft. They couldn't care less.

They're living Hamlet's soliloquy: is it "nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
or to take arms against a sea of troubles?" It is not only "nobler" to suffer, it's all that worm such as herself is, and ever shall be, capable of.

First, you've got to relieve the woman's inner suffering. You've got to cause the inner desert to bloom. Once the wife starts to experience and realize that joy comes from her, it's not given to her by TSSC nor denied from her by TSSC; as she realizes she is the star of her own show--and she's fully qualified to be so, she can develop the confidence from which she can assert herself and throw off the chains. You gotta water that desert.

This reminds me of a quote by Eckhart Tolle:

»If her past were your past, her pain your pain, her level of consciousness your level of consciousness, you would think and act exactly as she does. With this realization comes forgiveness, compassion, peace.»

That's probably very accurate. But how to start the irrigation system if there is no co-operation, or slightest apparent internal desire to make a chance? I think there we start getting to the area of trying to change someone who doesn't want to be changed which, while sad, probably needs to be respected.

Everyone wants to change.

Saying your wife will not change because she a) cannot; b) will not; c) doesn't want to (take your pick); is the same as saying I cannot help my wife because I a) cannot; b) will not; c) don't want to (take your pick).

What I'm saying is that making up your mind that someone else is a hopeless case, is simply saying that we, ourselves, are hopeless cases. It's simply an opinion and it's far more likely to be wrong than right. Every exmo was mo and many were TBMs. People change. Other people, especially spouses, have got influence, even if they don't see it. Just thinking, my wife's hopeless, puts her in a position of confirming your bias that she's hopeless.

I agree; we should not give up on people. I think, however, in some cases people are so entrenched that only some kind of an unpleasant life event that jolts them is required before any kind of movement is possible. And even then sometimes people just burrow deeper.

My approach at the moment is to bring up TBM-palatable articles and issues every now and then at the level that might cause some discord (because otherwise is not possible), but that is not sufficient to blow the lid off the situation. The hope is that at some point one of these articles will touch the right note, and/or that the accumulation of these items I bring to her awareness eventually reaches a critical mass in her to start her thinking (she already read through the CES letter as I carelessly mentioned it at some point.. and she was furious about me "entertaining such ridiculous ideas that can be so easily proven wrong").

It could be a lost cause, though. And at some point one has to consider whether I'm willing to sleep in a separate bedroom, celibate, for the rest of my life. I'm not in a hurry, though (kids..), and in the meanwhile I'm trying to remain in a reasonable physical shape, and continue my own spiritual development to the direction that I find most true.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2014 09:42PM by Facing Tao.

intellectual laziness and dishonesty = closed mind.

That's exactly what it is. I believe they know at their core that it is wrong, but they can't be honest with themselves. :/

I lived in Utah and went to BYU and I had no idea these types of Mormons existed until after I left. As it turns out, not only are they everywhere, they seem to be the majority. Mind = blown.

The cult brainwashing is strong.

the further along this case gets the more interesting the over all situation is to me:

their customers haven't cared (much) about the lack of disclosure - in fact, their best customers actually seem to expect it

the US government (the only government they seem concerned with) has always been very 'hands off' with religion

so... why not lie? when your back is against the wall and nobody (until now) is holding you accountable why not just lie through your teeth?

maybe i'm being overly optimistic but this situation just seems like the perfect storm for me - here's hoping some really juicy stuff comes out...

I hope something comes of it too. But I worry that these kind of members will only become more deeply entrenched, because they refuse to see it as anything but persecution --proof, that it must be Satan behind it all. Sigh.

I actually have a sibling who will put her fingers in her ears and say, LALALALALALA when confronted with a painful truth. I call this phenomenon willful ignorance and accuse the Mormon church of promoting it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2014 08:18PM by donbagley.

That way he/she blocks Stan's message coming out of your mouth. ;)

Be grateful you don't have to think like your friend. Be grateful you don't have to live in such fear as they do. Only fearful people seem to be so incurious about anything that goes on around them.

I don't know...there is a kind of security in having eternity all figured out. The possibility that this could be taken away from them is what causes the fear. And I'll admit, it's kind of depressing not having that assurance anymore. :/

This is why I don't think you should be depressed about not having the assurance of the CK anymore:

When people are choosing teams, any kind, from sports to a group of defense attorneys, the thing any person doing the choosing does is choose the best qualified person first.

Any god who may exist and may be putting together his celestial team is going to be looking for someone who can get things done, has critical thinking skills, personal integrity, and talent.

No god worth his salt is going to pick someone in the first draft round simply because they were obedient little brown-nosers who were horrified by coffee.

From your post, your mind is working brilliantly, your integrity is in tact, and you have guts--all exmos usually do--so any God looking for a pinch hitter is going to scout you.

And if it does turn out to be just "lights out" then we'll never know.

Thanks blueorchid, I was usually picked last in earthly sports, so maybe I'll have it better in the afterlife. Lol

Excellent ideas.

Just to point out another terribly irritating situation in the OP, what is with this sorrow TBMs always have to express when they hear you left the church? I would like to turn it around on them and say, "I feel sorry for you that you are still caught up in such a soul-destroying, dishonest organization." I really want to say this to the next person who feels sorry for me for leaving. They probably would not even think about how rude the statement was to me, but they would definitely be offended if I said this to them. Scream.

Yes, I have these same feelings. It would be heresy to say that to them. I could just envision the looks on their faces.

"I know there are things I don't know, and that is okay."

Not knowing is one thing. Being LIED TO is quite another.

I remember by TBM wife telling me once during a heated discussion about the TSCC, that "I am this religion". I immediately was stunned and speechless and realized she is completely sucked in. You are a person first that has a religion/belief, not a religion.

Let the prophet do the thinking. It may appear to be wrong, but I trust there is a mysterious/righteous reason for it.

This is fundamental to the religion and was taught by Joseph Smith.

"That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another."

"even things which might be considered abominable to all who understand the order of heaven only in part, but which in reality were right because God gave and sanctioned by special revelation."

Etc and so forth, its from April 11, 1842

If the prophet does it, it is right, because God must have told him so.

Because the church does not make moral and ethical sense, the members don't have a moral or ethical compass of their own. They only have faith that "the prophet will not lead them astray".

The whole thing starts with the conclusion, he is a true prophet of God. If he's not they're 7th generation dupe. Which version do people want to believe?

When we attack the church, the true believer does take it as a personal attack. How can he not. The implications of what it means (I'm a freakin' dumbass cult member) are pretty awful. Lots of barriers to protect the testimony and the self esteem.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2014 12:21PM by crom.

That's how cults work. Give it up. They couldn't think for themselves if they wanted to after they're that far gone.

My wife thinks that I am brainwashed for not believing in the church. Frustrating.