Like most,if not all of us, I hope the spotlight exposes the grubbiness, duplicity and general insanity of Mormonism.Any penalties, financial or otherwise are bonuses.

Finding RFM was the validation for me that my decision to withdraw from TSCC was correct.I see many posts that this publicity and exposure is providing either that validation or is the starting point for thinking in a new wave of soon-to-be exMOs.

I would love to see some of the genuinely decent people who are still enmeshed in the deception stepping back and rethinking the whole thing.

I would love to see my TBM nephew and niece who are struggling with families,finances and time demands realise that they can take control and direct their lives into new and better pathways.

I would love to see my mother acknowledge the harm she put her family into by converting and recognise that it was Mormonism that was responsible for fracturing her family, and leaving her financially vulnerable after sucking multiple senior's missions out of them.(Ain't going to happen!!! The Kool-aid is strong).

What about you?

Putting aside predictions on how "successful" the fraud case will be. . . . I am lousy at predictions.

I hope the church (Tom) is found guilty of purposely avoiding full disclosure in hopes of defrauding people out of their money, to enrich the LDS Church.

1,000,000 Mormons asking "Something is wrong with the Book of Abraham?"

I am going to be a bit of (well more than a bit) of a contrarian here.

I hope that an individual's ability to make bad decisions is maintained. After all, that is what tithing (in the LDS context) is.

After all, it is voluntary. Even if tithing is mandatory to be a Mormon, one does not have to be a Mormon.

If accepting donations for a religious organization starts to carry legal liability, then that will have a clear chilling effect on religious organizations. Any government that has the power to chill religions freedom also has the power to impose its own religions views.

In the end, my opinion is that anyone who values freedom of thought and belief has to fully hope the LDS and all of its officers are fully cleared in this matter.

ahhh the slippery slope fallacy.

One does not follow the other. Making religions toe to a secular line (after the highest court can find no other reasonable accommodation of the religious manifestation), does not mean we will wind up with a government religion.

120 years ago when SCOTUS said polygamy was not acceptable we didn't find ourselves on the road to government sponsored religion and forced beliefs. When we stopped burning witches and heretics I think we had MORE religious freedom not less.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2014 07:36PM by crom.

Apples and oranges.

How would you then (if given the authority) decide which giving to religious organizations is protected from claims of fraud once the donor no longer believes.

I don't see how one can determine there was fraud without the court finding the religious doctrines are false. I don't think it is the place of a court in the free world to make such determinations.

How about this line of questioning. Is collecting the tithing or donating the tithing the action that represents religious observance? Is the member or the institution living the law of tithing? (If it's not the institution then the demanding/collecting could be subject to secular standards of honesty.)

I know of one apostle that went ape shit crazy over a new idea that human rights advocates are pushing - Freedom of religion is an individual right not an institutional right. If this gained ground, can an institution bar someone from being Mormon because they don't pay the institution's fees? Could they be categorized as a business that sells saving ordinances as oppose to being about religious beliefs and faith?

Well enough of the philosophical discussion.

The real question is whether
A - Is demanding tithes a religious manifestation or observance?
B - what limits on religious observance can be set by the state?

I found some criteria in a UK case; any limits must fulfill three criteria:

(1) they must be prescribed by law
(2) they must pursue a legitimate aim
(3) they must be necessary in a democratic society: the "notion of necessity implies that the interference corresponds to a pressing social need and, in particular, that it is proportionate to the legitimate aim pursued.

Yes it is vague.

If this wasn't religion, A and B would have nothing to do with it, only the fraud statute. That part isn't a contest imo.

If the church didn't make cash part of the teachings the fraud statute wouldn't apply and they'd have no worries, they could say the BofM was a historical record of native Americans without liability.

Add: I"m sorry these are long, they are for my benefit as I sift through my own ideas. If I'm really off target I assume someone will slap me upside the head.

Add: I'm reading through a legal ruling restricting religious "manifestation" (worship,teaching practice and observance). (Religious group lost)

2 interesting quotes from ruling:

Religious conviction is not a solvent of legal obligation.

Everyone, therefore is entitled to hold whatever beliefs he wishes. But when questions of "manifestations" arise, as they usually do in this type of case, a belief must satisfy some modest, objective minimum requirements. These threshold requirements are implicit in article 9 of the European convention and comparable guarantees in other human rights instruments. the belief must be consistent with basic standards of human dignity or INTEGRITY. (my emphasis)

LDS Inc is screwed if this is the standard.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2014 12:21AM by crom.

Not paying tithing does not bar you from being Mormon...I didn't pay tithing for years...but it does bar you from progressing and getting the fullness (btw, my mobile device tried to autocorrect to "foulness") of Mormonism (ie. temple and ultimately exaltation)

So when you look at it, isn't tithing really mandatory?

I'm beginning to see that what "religion" is has been redefined in Europe through the human rights convention. It is member not institution driven.

If you have been accepted as a member do you get the same rights and privileges as all the other members. (Difference between tithe payers vs. non tithe payers is stark in LDS.)

A suit was filed last August in UK. Anglican gay couple that has been accepted as parishioners, wants the same privilege as the other parishioners to use the chapel for their wedding.

I am sorry to hear of all the disasters in your family Ozdoc. It is SO sad to hear those sorts of stories.

I suppose I hope that all this fraud stuff will show how ridiculous the whole idea of tscc is, and see some of the fractured families caused by the ridiculous doctrine re-unite. It is too late for my family to save itself in any form, but the kids are all okay and doing their own thing outside tscc.

I am ANGRY at the latest rumour that they are going to allow temple wedding ceremonies as well as temple ceremonies. I am glad for future LDS, but myself and SO many others had to sacrfice SO much for that stupid rule that it broke hearts that didn't heal in families. What a croc and NO ONE cared about all the fuss. Our Stake President just said "Be married in the Temple", period.

If this and so many other things that were SO wrong (before we even get to doctine) can be seen for the power and control they were, then so be it. BRING IT ON!!!!

It would be great if the church pulled out of England in a snit. That'd show the Brits.

Perhaps they'll stop proselytizing, which is the sign of a low religion. Progress is good, even for Mormons.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It would be great if the church pulled out of
> England in a snit. That'd show the Brits.

What? And waste all the money they spent on their wonderful "I'm a Mormon" campaign?

I just want to see more people leave.

But that really would need a team of forensic accountants. I have no problem with people giving what they want to a church, but people should know EXACTLY where it is all coming from and where it is going to. Like the majority of churches already do.

Shouldn't people be allowed to decide for themselves if they want to know where there religious donations go?

I wouldn't donate to a church that didn't make public its finances, but if someone else wishes to do just that, I will defend their right.

However this isn't just about what members want. This is also about the GOVERNMENTS and taxpayers of the countries where they enjoy tax free status and other perks. You do get that the TAXPAYERS in the UK cough up 20% of members tithes. In the US they don't even have the limited oversight that they do in the UK. If LDSInc doesn't want to discuss it's finances, well hunkey dorey but they can pay their own damn share. My best guess is it will not be this but one of several cases involving sexual abuse in the US that may force them to open their books. They have made HUGE settlements in the past to avoid doing exactly that. Gee anondude, why do you think that is?

I absolutely agree that taxpayers should not foot the bill, in whole or in part, for religious groups. Donations, tithes, etc. to religious groups would not be tax deductible in my perfect world.

Matching funds for churches would absolutely be out.

THIS. Religious leaders can say all the wacky unbelievable crap they want but if they are claiming tax exempt status they should have to show where those donations are going. Of course, they already do that in the UK but not here. But they know members would be pissed about how they piss away all their hard earned dollars.

My family out of the CULT.

verilyverily Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My family out of the CULT.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you!

Sterling

So tough to guess what will happen. Of course the best is guilty of fraud with massive penalties. I don't think that will happen as I don't have faith in the justice system vs an organization with a near unlimited budget and some political connections. I hope the UK surprises me.

What I do see this set up as is a great foundation for civil cases to recover tithing, interest and penalties. Remember OJ was found not guilty in criminal court. Civil actions will keep the wounds from healing.

The church is headed down no matter what now. This has hurt and will continue to do so. The church will soon be dead in Europe.

Regardless of the outcome, I hope there is enough negative publicity where many TBMs will start questioning the lies they've been fed.

I'd like to see the UK arm of the church essentially shut down, spreading to the rest of the European Union...and after that, the rest of the world. I'd like for more lawsuits and fraud cases to be raised, in an ever increasing number. For people to stop feeding the Mormon beast with their tithing, and instead take care of their families better. For church property to be seized. For monies to be returned to the people who gave them. For the church to fall into financial and political nothingness.

I'd like all of the "anti-Mormon lies" to finally come to light as the truth. For all of us telling the truth to become known as truth-tellers and people of integrity. I'd like to see families united, instead of separated by a church that says that families are forever while dividing them. I'd like for the words of John Lennon's "Imagine" to come to pass.

I'd like for there to be personal freedom for all. No guilting into being "righteous" or "good" or "obedient" for some LDS god outside themselves, or some religious leader, or some LDS congregation. But rather being accountable to their own sense of what is right for themselves and their families, and for the good of humanity. No more looking down on other's who are different or thinking they need to be saved. No more spending of precious life force on busy work and toilet cleaning and spiritual improvement that has no basis on truth.

I'd like people to become more active in true charity. Not just giving funds that may not get to any kind of true need. There is something powerful in touching pain and seeing it with your own eyes, and making a difference with your own hands--that far surpasses giving a few dollars, while keeping your hands clean from people who are different from yourself. And it has nothing to do with missionary work or eternal salvation.

I'd like people to stop hiding who they are, and feel free to dance. When I see old women and compare the LDS ones from the non-LDS, the difference is drastic. I want to grow old with free expression of everyone, all around me. I'd like to see women becoming wise, instead of "keeping sweet". I'd like to see men become MEN, instead of castrating their glorious male energy.

I'd like for people to stop acting like sheep needing a shepherd, and instead become enlightened beings through knowledge rather than suppression of thought. I would like the fall of the LDS church to help bring about the fall of other false power structures...leaving in it's rubble a better world.

And yes...I'd like to see my family, and all future generations, out of the cult.

On a personal level...I want my DW to formally resign. I think the shelf is close to collapsing, and we attend another church together...but there's always that, "just in case, I'm not resigning." And so, there is the VT and missionary harassment on occasion...always, she feels at least some obligation to answer to them.

So maybe, if it pushed her over the edge, that'd be good. Don't know if this will be the thing to do it. At the very least, I hope that this criminal complaint causes the sun to shine where it never has, serving as a great disinfectant for so much that's so dirty and diseased about this organization.

The TBM's and Jack Mormons I know don't seem to know about this case, or if they've heard anything, they won't discuss it because it's too critical of the church. What I would love to see is that more members of my step family leave the church. What I would really want to see is that my youngest step sister wait until she finishes college after her mission before getting married.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2014 08:57PM by adoylelb.

I guess my personal desires are rather modest. IN THE UK (there is absolutely no hope in the US) I want the church to be stripped of charitable status, charged back taxes and penalties, with interest, for what the public purse was defrauded into the cult and the ability of individual people to get their tithing back, with interest, for being defrauded.

I want to see 6 or 7 cars in the parking lot on sundays. Trash blowing across the grass... Dirty windows and dusty sidewalks. I want to see capitulation after capitulation on doctrines... excuse after excuse for past profits of gawd... bewilderment and confusion of whats in and whats not... this month. I want to look my (still living) parents in the eye and say... I warned you..I stood up... I kept my integrity... I was honest... you were decieved and you stayed because you valued your own position and status more than you valued the relationship with your own kids.

Personally, I want this case to be the 'small thing' that allows 'great things to come to pass'. This fraud case (if successful) should give firm legal grounding for those of us who have found little traction in moving the minds of our TBM family and friends on the matter of church history, doctrinal practice, and personal integrity. It would also establish legal precedence for forwarding our cause in other jurisdictions, including the United States.

We who understand the implications of this legal endeavor should lend all assistance to Mr. Phillips and his associates. I add my voice in requesting Mr. Phillips consider a plan for soliciting our help, including monetary assistance if necessary. It's just that important to me.

The negative publicity about this case has and will definitely continue to have a negative effect on nominal members and investigators. It will come up on google searches and is already part of the public domain.

As far as the case itself, it will be quietly dismissed and fade from the limelight relatively quickly. It will be deemed a publicity stunt by most observers, which is too bad because its entirely valid. I'm afraid that despite all the breathless buildup, the climax will be disappointing. We still live in a time where these superstitious beliefs get a pass. Somehow beliefs categorized as "religion" operate completely outside any rational universe normally applied to the rest of existence. As ex mormons we remain and small subset of the general population, and while it is of major interest to us, it's a passing blip on the radar screen to most people.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/15/2014 11:18AM by SLDrone.

I'd just like for Tom (and the other parties to the criminal action) to feel good about it when its all said and done since he's the one who's taken the risk.

I've already gotten all I could have hoped for - just seeing it in print and knowing that the cult leaders have to discuss this together and actually make eye contact when talking about whether the Book of Abraham is a fraud.