https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderhook_plates

They were made to expose Joe Smith, and did, yet that is buried from the public.

Joe's statement on the fake plates:

"I have translated a portion of [the plates] and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth."


Good GOD, why have I never heard of this??? 40 years!!! 40 F***ing years!!!

[banging head on desk]

See mormonthink's piece on the K plates.

I'm turning 30 in a week and a half, been in the morg my whole life, and I found out about the kinderhook plates a few weeks ago. As well as: Hoffman documents, Joseph Smith's polygamy, and many other deep, dark, dirty little secrets the church keeps hidden from its members.

Do you mind sharing how you found out?

"Some things that are true are not very useful (for keeping people in the church and paying tithing)."

-Boyd K Pecker

I had never heard of them, nor the Greek psalter incident until a couple of months ago. I'm a BIC 55 year old.

I found them on a 20 questions about Mormonism page that I read shortly after my testimony dissipated. Shocked me, like it did you. Crazy what the church has buried over the years.

"Would Brother Richard G. Spot please stand."

[i reluctantly rise from my overflow, corner seat by wife, Lorenzo's Ho.]

"It is proposed that we sustain Brother Richard G. Spot as the ward gullible, simpleton, village idiot specialist. All in favor, please indicate by the raise of the right hand."

[all hands raise]

"any opposed by the same sign"

[no hands raise. a baby screams "mine, mine." the bishop is nodding off. musty smell of old diapers and cheerios lingers.]

"Thank you, Village Idiot Spot."

"Our opening hymn will be 'If we could hie to Kolob' afterwhich, sister Lorenzo's Ho will offer our invocation."

If it's any consolation, we were all there with ya

No hon, you are none of those things. You are simply trusting and probably BIC or converted before the general use of the internet. But, you are also brave, and a seeker of truth or you would not have looked in the first place.

I never knew about them either until just a couple of years ago if it makes you feel any better.

The apologetics on this issue are very weak. Their three main points:

1. The HC entry was taken from William Clayton's journal, and not written by Joseph Smith.

2. Parley P. Pratt's letter from that time on the topic contradicts William Clayton.

3. Joseph Smith never produced an actual translation beyond what Clayton claimed, and therefore must not have been that interested.


Truth:

1. William Clayton was Joseph Smith's private secretary officially tasked with recording Joseph Smith's actions.

2. Pratt's letter does not actually contradict Clayton, since a Jaredite and a descendant of Ham were NOT mutually exclusive classifications.

3. Joseph Smith never translated the Book of Joseph or even finished the Book of Abraham. He would have had only about 1 year to even consider working on the Kinderhook plates (from May 1843 until June 1844), but was too busy banging plural wives, ducking the law, running for PoTUS, and NOT finishing the BoA translation. The incomplete translation of the BoA took 7 years (1835 acquisition of the papyri, 1842 publication of the BoA), so we should NOT have expected anything more on the Kinderhook plates in that short of time.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2014 04:14PM by Facsimile 3.

The Kinderhook plates actually precipitated my way out of the church. After investigating them, I decided they weren't a smoking gun (this was before the Clayton reference was validated by Bradley). I then felt confident to tackle the first vision, and the rest, as they say, is history...

Richard, you just "inspired" me to launch a new TSCC program.
It's called: "Every member a gullible, simpleton, village idiot specialist." The main thrust of the program is to not ask the tough questions, don't snoop, refrain from interrogating, and only concern yourself with the milkiest of doctrine. It's exactly what the church needs in these perilous times.

Then, Richard, you haven't read Nobody Knows My History, by Brodie. This incident made me laugh and brought to light JS's reality. Ha ha ha and Congratulations on your calling.

You better not investigate the voree plates either.

http://www.strangite.org/Plates.htm

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/talk-voreeplates.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2014 04:23PM by rodolfo.

Eh...no thanks. I have had enough revelation for one day. I'm sure to have already made my "calling and election made sure" by magnifying my calling as Idiot Specialist to the highest degree of perfection.

50 years before I knew about them. Also Joseph's wives and the BoA fiasco.

I read mormonThink.com from beginning to end. Found out the church I thought I belonged to doesn't exist. It never did. I belonged to the church of smoke and mirrors.

Mormonism is the gift that keeps on giving.

When I say 'gift' I mean kinda like herpes and when I say 'giving' I kinda mean like herpes.


Oh and I love yer screen name. It made me LOL.

Ha ha ha hah ha...ha!

Actually I was wondering if there is a way to survey regular, normal active Mormons about what they know about things like BofM translation (the rock and hat), JS polygamy/polyandry, first vision, Expositor, BofA...

Just ask, what do you know, not a multiple choice option survey. Seems to me that if most people still believe only what's in the missionary manuals, it strengthens Tom's case. Has something like this been done? Maybe at least we could all provide testimony in support of the notion that members are kept in ignorance by acknowledging our own?

Concerning the Kinderhook Plates

Joseph Smith had the power to translate anything, even fraudulent gibberish. Come to think of it, that's all he ever did translate.

I was taught this in Gospel Doctrine class as a faith-promoting true story that helped prove Joseph was really a prophet and could translate ancient writings. Yeah, seriously.

Hey Sponge,

About what year was that? Just curious.

Just an observation here....
This is a generational phenomenon it appears. I'm mid-fifties and just now learning how many untruths I was told as well as how many truths were left out of my "programming". BIC, mid-fifties, Utard. That's us.

It does seem to be generational, though if I'm an example, it extended beyond the moridor. I grew up in NY, CA and TX, not getting to UT until starting college in '77.

Aside: my ward in TX had Romneys and Pratts in it from the Colonia Juarez exclave. One of the Pratts was my best bud for a number of years.

I really want to ask my 75-year old mom what she was taught about this stuff, but I am too far away to help if recognizing that its all a lie plunges her deeper into depression.

Anyone in their 60s, 70s, 80s and BIC care to comment?

My district leader, from Kaysville, Utah, casually talked about them and jokingly admitted that Joseph Smith couldn't translate them. The next I heard about them was here:

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax

Kimball's article is of course apologetic, and excuses Joseph Smith. However, shifting blame for the description of what the plates contained onto William Clayton is disingenuous. Clayton was Smith's private secretary and recorded his statements. Clayton certainly would not have invented this verbiage out of whole cloth:

"I have translated a portion of them, and find they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth.”

That stuff obviously came from the mind of Joseph Smith, seeing as how it's similar to verbiage in the Book of Abraham.