My wife as I have stated is TBM. As she learns more truth about TSCC she keeps going back to how it isn't perfect but is the best way to come to God.

I have said that I believe Mormonism is actually very disrespectful of God and have given her examples of how it claims God set up a phony contrivance in the Garden of Eden, how it claims God told Abraham to lie to Pharaoh about his wife, how it claims Jesus was slaughtering millions of people in America after his crucifixion, now it claims JS was commanded to lie to his wife, how it has been on the wrong side of EVErY major moral issue of our times, etc.

In short it really made her think. If the church disrespects the God she loves then it is not a good church.

So if you can brainstorm for me and come up with evidences of the church "taking the name of God in vain" to further their ungodly agenda or disrespecting god in any way I would greatly appreciate your insights.

I don't want her to lose faith in God but I do believe the God of the Mormon religion is a false idol. Petty. Childish. Mean. You know what I mean.

From Bible -

Matthew 7:15
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves."

And then you should reveal the true history of Joseph Smith (polygamy, lying, Book of Mormon inaccuracies etc.)

That would be my approach. It is important to be very careful, because cult teachings can be very powerful.
Good luck.

Yes quote from the Bible, because the biblical God is so much kinder and gentler than the Mormon God.

Well the actual message of the Bible in Christianity is - Jesus suffered for our sins, and Jesus accepts and loves everyone unconditionally. Jesus doesn`t demand people to change themselves or force themselves to go on very hard missions abroad, or to be perfect etc. Sorry for English mistakes. It is not my native language. I don`t want to start religion war here too.

Maybe you could ask her specifically what about mormonism makes it the best way to come to God. After leaving mormonism and joining another denomination, I have found it very freeing to hear sermons about love and forgiveness rather than food storage and missionary work. A lot of Christians interpret the Garden of Eden story, as well as some other stories in the bible, as allegorical. I think that it is disrespectful of Jesus to have his name in the name of your church and then say you can't pray to him. I think it is disrespectful to the martyrs throughout the ages who have given their lives for Christ to have Joseph Smith say the true gospel was gone from the earth and all other churches an abomination (or whatever it was that he said). I think the mormon way of praying is simplistic. What about meditation or contemplative prayer? Why does everything follow that rote method of prayer? Why do mormons put their faith in an institution and not in God? Hopefully others can give you better examples.

I will have to go thru my other notes (been awhile since I shared them) but it will have to be later today.

The biggest thing that comes to my mind is that Mormonism also disrespects and DEVALUES Jesus.

How? Look at all the posts around here where people have shared they confessed their sins to the LDS leaders and yet they were still taken in on a regular basis and their record followed them even if they moved. Perfect strangers would know that 10 yrs ago you did XYZ.

I did not have a "previous record" but I knew folks that did. I thought nothing of it. I loved that they were determined to put their own life on the right track, but their past was constantly slapped in their face.

He was so upset after the past being brought up again. SO I suggest he ask his Bishop next time to bring up a convo like this.

"DO you believe in Jesus?"

Answer likely to be, "Of course I do, with all the fiber of my being".

"Do you believe that Jesus died to atone for our sins?" (Keep in mind that many Mormons believe Jesus atoned for sins in the Mount of Olives, not the cross)

Answer likely to be, "yes!"

Then "Why do you keep making him suffer to pay for those sins again and again? Wasn't once enough?"

The conversation got very interesting there.

In my church, I had someone who felt horrible about their past. They were in turmoil if they were really forgiven. I just asked them.

"You still do it?"

"No"

"Do you want to?"

"No"

"What will it take for you to feel forgiven?"

"A sign I guess"

I held up the little silver cross on my chain. "Like this?"
"Stop nailing him to it over and over."

She broke down and I just held her.

Why do people make love so complicated? :D
RMM

Start by accepting that until god defines its self you will not know who or what god is. In addition an omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omnipresent, and omniscient being will not really care about being disrespected.

Why step from one oppressive dogma to another? If god is, god is not what you imagine god to be. Nor would god be particularly concerned with how you imagine god.

This reminds me of my dad. He wasn't sure whether there was a God; but he was damn sure if you claimed you understood God, it was clear proof you didn't.

Time for reflective contemplation. The Church keeps you too busy to walk in the garden and commune.

The faith of a child is different than childish faith. There should be no restrictions on what you read or study.

Fear, not love, is the dominant emotion in the Church.

Fear begets prejudice and ignorance, the chief inhibitors of spiritual growth.

It is far better to have a personal religion (philosophy of life) than to have a Church devoid of this.

You don't need anyone (Church or priesthood) that stands between you and God. Your personal religion of the heart (love) is better than learning secret prayers, rituals, code words, hand shakes...

Integrity, Excellence, Caring, are the high values that define God in human experience. Only, if a church aligns with these high values can it be helpful.

I went to a Pagan religion because I believe the god of the bible is worthy of disrespect.

Idea:
Spend each Sunday going to a different denomination Christian church. One week Catholic, the next Methodist, the next Assemblies of God, the next Episcopalian, the next Presbyterian......you get the picture?
Notice that with few differences, each of those worships the Christian god He's meant to be worshipped.
Tell her we don't have temples with pagan ceremonies. Have her consult with theologians of various stripes.
And tell her that outside of Utah we do just fine being close to God. There's lots of ways she can be shown the truth.

fundamentard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have said that I believe Mormonism is actually
> very disrespectful of God and have given her
> examples of how it claims God set up a phony
> contrivance in the Garden of Eden, how it claims
> God told Abraham to lie to Pharaoh about his wife...

Standard Christianity teaches the same thing.

Would God exclude families from being together for a wedding?

Would God place women as subordinate to men? Would he wait until 2013 to allow women to pray in conference?

Would God exclude an entire race from fully participating in his religion until 1978?

Jesus said "Neither do I condemn thee, go thy way and sin no more" yet the LDS church has a punitive system for sin, especially sexual sin where the person is humiliated and shamed.

The church keeps people so busy with busy work there is less time for meaningful worship.

The extreme authoritarian set up of the church replaces God.

Mormonism detracts from the saving power of Jesus and says the real way to the top heaven is secret handshakes.

Good post-point fundamentard and excellent points Joan99, RMM, Matt20.

Mormonism disrespects God, Jesus Christ (the yogi himself), the individual, all forms of thinking outside the box, all other religions, most practices and beliefs (even those bringing you closer to God or the truth. Ie: yoga, meditation, contemplation, thought) and even itself... by not taking an honest look at itself or encouraging dialogue that talks about what this is.

The doctrine of Blood Atonement was taught for an absolute fact within the Mormon church for decades before it was unceremoniously set aside and seldom spoken of again due to pressure from outside the church.

The concept is that Jesus came to this earthly realm to set for us an example of godly obedience, suffering a torturous death at the hands of Satan-inspired sinners for the propitiation of our sins thus creating an atonement acceptable to God (of this planet, as per Mormon-think) that we may return to his presence, sharing His exalted celestial glory for the remainder of eternity. (Of course, the doctrine of “eternal progression” is a total disaster, but that’s for another thread altogether.)

However, at some point, (don’t have my references on hand) Joseph Smith received a “revelation” from God the Father that sacrificing the life of his son Jesus, was not sufficient to cover the more important sins such as blasphemy against the Holy Ghost and murder of those carrying innocent blood. For those guilty of the weightier sins like murdering innocents or making rude, unkind or unsupportive comments out loud against persons such as Joseph Smith or Brigham Young God revealed the principle of Blood Atonement. And yes, this does beg the question; if God really is almighty, why did He not just clear the matter up by just insisting His Son’s blood WOULD be sufficient to cover ALL sins of the genuinely repentant? According to Joseph, there was no saving power in the inadequate sacrifice of the life blood of Jesus Christ for Mormon blasphemers. The offending Mormon was required to render up his (her) own life by slitting their own throat, or having their throat slashed for them by a fellow Mormon whose only concern was salvation for a fellow believer that the inadequate sacrifice of Christ did not cover. They were required to spill their own blood unto death before they were deemed worthy to be reunited with God.

This was a very convenient “revelation” instantly making Joseph Smith equal to God for the judgment and condemnation of sins within the camp of the saints. And now, in the same instant, a Mormon could now be received unto God by the shedding of his own blood rendering the sacrifice of Christ completely devalued and nearly without any meaning whatsoever to rank and file members. If you have ever sensed an air of disrespect towards the person of Jesus Christ in deference to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young at church meetings, this doctrine was the genesis for that attitude.

Modern day Mormons still living within the LDS fantasy bubble would be horrified if they really understood how the doctrine of Blood Atonement was used to eliminate unwanted sexual competition, unwanted heirs in the path of coveted cash and assets, and even unwanted older wives at times when housing was tight. If and when the time arrives , as she is more willing to consider reading that which is less flattering to church history like contemporary personal diaries, so-called “anti” material, she will find an almost inexhaustible list of heart-breaking reasons to reconsider the Corp. of Latter-Day Saints’ ownership of her money, time, body and soul.

At the top of the page of the following is the following list of links to short articles regarding the subject of Blood Atonement. My copy/paste function would not record the hyperlink for each topic, so if you’re interested you will have to go to main page first. I recommend slow going as this is really sick, twisted stuff. But if your wife is ready to begin considering actual church history, I count you a very fortunate man.


http://1857massacre.com/MMM/bloodatonement.htm

PAGE INDEX
Brigham Young's sermon on Blood Atonement
A person's obligation to spill the blood of those who committed serious sins
The most deadly sin among the people was adultery
Orders from Joseph Smith and his apostles to beat, wound and castrate all Gentiles
Brigham Young approved of many violent acts perpetrated by those he put in authority.
President Young discussed the matter of castration being used to save people:
If the Gentiles wish to see a few tricks, we have 'Mormons' that can perform them.
Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them
Black Mormon in Massachusetts had married a white woman
Kill anyone who engaged in sexual relations outside marriage.
Clyde Felt has confessed to cutting the throat of old man Collins, at his request.

We read the bible together when we realized that Joseph Smith had changed what Jesus said that the Gospel is.

We like how bill mckeever (mormon research ministry = web page) compares the Mormon teachings and Mormon scriptures to each other and he has a radio spot also.

+10000000000000 Steve

Hi Fundamentard:

The best example of LDS doctrine disrespecting the true God of Christianity, is the Mormon concept of God being born at some location, and advancing and progressing to BECOME a God! And he has a body, parents, grandparents, wives, and literal children. He is NOT the creator of all. He is merely an exalted man. This is a far cry from the eternal, awesome, omniscient God who was NEVER a man, but has always been God!! (He is the Alpha and Omega). Talk about disrespecting!

The Mormons believe the converse of Mormon men becoming gods--they believe that God was once a man, just like them. To me, that is blasphemy!

Mormon priesthood holders believe they can tell God what to do. when I first became inactive and quit my church callings (because of illness) my bishop did not give me comfort, but, instead, he threatened me that God would withdraw His blessings from me. He was speaking for God Almighty, and also telling God to not bless us. The bishop also threatened that my children would fail in life. He and some of my Mormon neighbors are upset that God did not follow the Mormon Church's rules, and God continued to bless us even more abundantly.

In an interview before that, I picked up the Bible off the bishop's desk, and said, "The Bible says not to judge others." He turned around in his swivel chair and took off his book shelf "The Church Handbook of Instructions." and waved it in my face, and said, "It says HERE that as a Mormon Bishop, I AM A JUDGE IN ZION!]

The disrespect of God continues in every little corner of Mormonism, today, which makes sense because the whole Mormon church was founded by a con-man, who claimed to speak for God. That is what a Mormon "Prophet" does. He "speaks for God" on issues like tattoos and piercings, Blacks not being allowed the priesthood, man never setting foot on the moon, gay marriage destroying the family, non-Mormon families not being together in the hereafter, and many other false, hateful, and threatening things that God and Jesus would never approve.

God is Love. How simple. Your wife is in a cult that does not believe in unconditional love.

Christ's Atonement wasn't enough to save all mankind. To be saved, one must join the Mormon church, pay tithing, and OBEY. Here it is in the Mormons' own Articles of Faith, written by Joseph Smith, Prophet of God: "We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel."

I think your wife already knows this deep down in her heart. I was a BIC Mormon, and I always felt that the Mormon church was not God's church." When I went to the temple for the first time, I KNEW that.

Joy Wrote:
>
> Christ's Atonement wasn't enough to save all
> mankind. To be saved, one must join the Mormon
> church, pay tithing, and OBEY. Here it is in the
> Mormons' own Articles of Faith, written by Joseph
> Smith, Prophet of God: "We believe that through
> the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved
> by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the
> Gospel."

Compare Joy's excellent point, and appropriate JS quote, with the words of Paul: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2.8-9 ESV).

A suggestion, Fundamentard: Get a modern translation of the Bible, and have a time with your wife and just read the Bible. One or two chapters a day. Just read. I suggest the ESV. The ESV Study Bible has great historical, linguistic, archaeological, and doctrinal notes. I also suggest that you start with Luke's Gospel, as it provides more detail on Christ's life, and shows His working with, and reaching out, the people who were outside the Hebrew culture: prostitutes, gentiles,Romans, the lame, etc.


Chances are your wife will be fascinated with learning things she'd never heard before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tGklhhOH38
I Was a Mormon: Rauni Higley

Wow so many good ideas. Thank you--I could never have thought of them on my own.

I should add that it is not my goal to get her to go from one system of indoctrination to another. But the truth is that to me almost any form of mainstream religion is better (less judgmental, less out of touch, less divisive, less hurtful to families, less expensive haha, less demanding of total obedience, less arrogant, etc) than Mormonism.

I used to think all churches were about the same but I've seen that there are MANY that are reasonable, humble, and truly there for the benefit of their congregation. Places that don't feel threatened by you thinking differently. Places that don't get pissed that you are somehow devaluing the stock by having an opinion.

What I want to do is show my wife how disrespectful of god Mormonism is. And despite what the poster said above NO other Christian religion thinks god lied to Adam and Eve as a trick, that for told Abraham to lie to pharaoh, that Jesus burned and drowned and crushed millions of people to celebrate his atonement, etc.

One of the most disrespectful things about Mormonism is that god would have anything to do with the idiotic writing style and story line of the Book of Mormon or the airy fairy bs of the book of Abraham or the fustercluck that is Mormon history.

"...god could not be the author of so much confusion..." (Joseph Smith)

Wow so many good ideas. Thank you--I could never have thought of them on my own.

I should add that it is not my goal to get her to go from one system of indoctrination to another. But the truth is that to me almost any form of mainstream religion is better (less judgmental, less out of touch, less divisive, less hurtful to families, less expensive haha, less demanding of total obedience, less arrogant, etc) than Mormonism.

I used to think all churches were about the same but I've seen that there are MANY that are reasonable, humble, and truly there for the benefit of their congregation. Places that don't feel threatened by you thinking differently. Places that don't get pissed that you are somehow devaluing the stock by having an opinion.

What I want to do is show my wife how disrespectful of god Mormonism is. And despite what the poster said above NO other Christian religion thinks god lied to Adam and Eve as a trick, that for told Abraham to lie to pharaoh, that Jesus burned and drowned and crushed millions of people to celebrate his atonement, etc.

One of the most disrespectful things about Mormonism is that god would have anything to do with the idiotic writing style and story line of the Book of Mormon or the airy fairy bs of the book of Abraham or the fustercluck that is Mormon history.

"...god could not be the author of so much confusion..." (Joseph Smith)