I was looking over boyd's wikipedia page, and I noticed this quote: "Discouragement of interracial marriage was not unique to Packer within the LDS Church hierarchy, and reflected longstanding church counsel, still reflected (as of 2010) in at least one current LDS Church manual."

I knew this was true in the past, but I didn't know that current manuals had this. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Probably still in the general handbook of instructions.

I had a rommate throw that one at me when I started dating my current wife (1/4 chinese). "You wouldn't ever consider marrying here, would you? You know what the church teaches about interracial marriages."

I felt like punching his stupid, bigoted face. And I'd never heard of any such thing in my lifetime in the church so I figured he must be ignorant on top of it all. How was I to know that it was me that was ignorant...

Reminds me of when an evangelical friend told me about changes in the bom and I laughed in his face, and told him it wasn't true. I should really write him an apology...

It may be a nice thing to write that apology. He was only trying to help. This interracial thing really bugs me about the LDS faith. My SIL's brother married a Hispanic. Is that okay? He's Mormon.

Fortunately, I when on to research bom changes for myself. I only wish I'd done it sooner.

Hispanics come in all races and colors.

Nailing down LDS Theology is like nailing Jello to the wall. The church changes its teachings, but rarely refutes old ones. They just hope those disappear. So, members have different ideas about what they are supposed to believe.

The polygamy and racist policy changes are the rare changes. Typically, they just slowly let old teachings die.

When did they say it was okay for women to work? Most LDS women work and I remember Kimball saying how awful that was. The changes to views on gays have evolved dramatically over the last 40 years.

How many Mormons know that JS's intro to the BofM was changed around 2003?

Does the LDS Church disapprove of interracial dating? Not actively any more. Who knows what they really want. I'll bet if you polled the top 15 privately, you'd get 4-5 completely different opinions.

When they showed a very obvious black individual and a very white-and-delightsome blonde gal on the Salt Lake Temple Grounds with their marriage party...

And it wasn't any racist views that were fueling my rage (a close relative of mine was involved in an interracial marriage in '79 after the Kimball "revelation," and the Mo' half of the family boycotted the Catholic wedding). It was seeing the sheer hypocrisy and it not being acknowledged...

>"Well, yeah there, we know you two young folks are very much in love and you're both faithful church members, but you might be headed for serious trouble (like from still-bigoted church members), and well, you know, if you have trouble, you might not be able to pay a full tithe from time to time, and think how you might feel then....

It is NOT the size. We have more important issues than that. I kind of think the black men as much or more so are interested in the white women.

mistyfied Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are so many white women attracted to black
> men?
> Is it the "music" or the "size"?

Some of them ARE quite tall, aren't they? And there are many of them who are talented opera singers and very good classical musicians.

Or had you come in from some other, less quaint epoch? I bet you just LOVE the smell of burning crosses in the morning.

Back around 1994 I worked at a factory in Sandy Utah. One day one of my co workers was showing a photo of his kids; his kids were absolutely beautiful. He was ( is, I'm assuming he is still alive) an African American and his wife from Guatemala. There was a Mormon princess who worked with us and she glanced at the picture and said "Yeah, they are cute kids, but I don't believe they should be here... I don't believe in interracial marriages."

The man really had to restrain himself from clocking the little bitch and I think the only thing that stopped him was the fact that she was female and he didn't believe in hitting women.

She was two years older than me, which made her 18 years old at that time. So it hasn't been that long ago that people still had that mindset on interracial relationships.

but she said it in front of him?!?! That's unbelievably rude and--I'm speechless.

It just strongly ENCOURAGES same-race marriages.

LOL! What a bunch of d-bags!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 03:54PM by Fetal Deity.

Uhhh, I thought in this day and age science had pretty much destroyed the idea that there are "races." Right?

It was discouraged in my house....but only towards the girls, indirectly. Meaning, it was only made to be a big deal if one of us girls did it, but if a brother dated a non-white girl, not a second thought. I guess a non-white female is less threatening than a non-white male.

But usually when you discourage something with your children, it usually backfires. 5 out of 8 kids (2 boys, 3 girls) married/procreated outside their race. Surprisingly being in Utah County.

I am revolted by the racist comments peppered throughout this thread.

Are you "ignernt" posters MORMONS who simply want to make the rest of us look bad?? Or maybe Aryan Nation types living on some wacked-out compound in Mormon Idaho - hiding behind your stockpile of weapons, food storage, and paranoia?

The world is bigger than your small minds.

I just got back from a trip to Disney World with my large family (which includes two small black children and two Russian-born orphans). While vacationing in Orlando, I must have heard over a dozen different languages being spoken throughout the weekend. There were beautiful families all around us - different skin colors, various styles of clothing. Laughing. Playing. We all had one thing in common . . . love for our children. Love. It's the international language.

We are all human.

Black people bleed red just like you do. Your racist attitudes come from your Mormon progamming. Your upbringing in Utah is not representative of the rest of the world.

Re-examine your prejudice.

If you could just *MEET* my little handicapped son, Zachary, and listen to his story . . . your heart would melt. Tears would well up in your eyes and you would feel SHAME for your sick attitude! My black child is beautiful, so sweet, so precious. I would die to protect his life.

Luckily we live in the South, and contrary to popular notions, there is very little racism here. Blacks are so populous that skin color is a non-issue. Interracial marriage is extremely common and bi-racial children are numerous.

Get over your fucking selves. You sound like my Utarded in-laws.

God I'm pissed.

You know, Zachary is seven-years-old now (but the size of a 3-year-old and in a wheelchair most of the time). He has never felt the sting of racism in his life. I don't even think he knows the word "X." As a white mom, I dread the day when the kid of some idiot like the posters in this thread hurl a racial insult at him.

His little heart will break . . . and he won't even know what he did wrong to make some other child hate him so much.

P.S. And, for the stupid jerk that asked about black men's anatomy - yes Zachary has a long penis. Probably bigger than yours. ;o)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 09:48PM by Susan I/S.

and I get really tired too of the way people perceive white women who have dated black men. Because apparently once a white woman dates a black man at one point in her life that equals to that white woman only dates black men, and they can only imagine why, when someone sees her with that black man :::sigh:::

It never crosses anyone's mind that someone dates/marries someone because they love them and their skin color is secondary (or not in the equation at all). But that's the world we live in.

I too have noticed (and am still surprised) at how accepting the people in the south are compared to Utah. It's not all peachy all the time (there are some people who make their point they have a problem, and that's okay, better than keeping it inside with a smile on their face, like Utah) but the opposite still catches me off guard...I get a lot of positive attention...and not the obnoxious "oooh I want one!" responses people in Utah give when they see black or biracial children.

I've been to the South and have found it very racist. Its quiet racism but still very much there.

I suppose a general blanket statement about the south does include all the small towns with small minded people who haven't progressed (even larger cities I'm sure you're still going to have such people). But where I live, I've never had any real issues at all. No child here looks at my child on the playground and leaves and plays with another child upon realizing they look different...no parents grab their children and tell them not to play by my children. (this happened in Utah) I know this happens in the south and anywhere, but I wouldn't live in an area like that.


Compared to Utah County....I feel more comfortable raising my (biracial) children here than in Utah. Which is ironic since "the one true church" who's supposedly follow Christ there in Utah County, made my family feel uncomfortable and unwelcome, even though I was born and raised there.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/10/2010 10:15PM by Thithter Thim.

I will "grant" you that. I was in small towns. I also wouldn't be surprised to see what you described in Utah happen there.
My sister lives in a smaller town in Georgia. She purchased her house from an black family. She didn't know until the day she moved in her neighbor told her how happy he was that there was another white family on the block. Being from Alaska and going to college in CA she had never thought this still happened.

outwardly in the public view of others and other mormons...no
inwardly in the close circle of friends and relatives...YES!


I've seen it happen without a doubt...
not all, but too many
too many leaders who have powers of influence and persuasion
too many members who can't think for themselves
too many who won't stand up for bigotry and prejudice
too many wolves in sheep's clothing
too many who claim to be Christlike
too many who've never ever had to confront differences
too many who carry on the heritage of intolerance and elitism
a sad state of affairs...

what is white
the absence of color, light?
i've never been able to figure that out
german, irish, asian, native american shout out
does that qualify sweet ol' me?
or does it not tell the whole story?
a child of many worlds without a real home, my own
a ray of light shining outward, yet painfully alone
when the words of the "brethren" rain on my parade
it saddens me in the most devastating and numbing way
judge me less faithful by pigmentation alone
foolish "christian" what a shameful home!
where love is absent and ignorance is bliss
generations tainted by your pointed words, hiss
walk a new road where your spirit can and shoud be free
away from those who confiscate your liberty
to a place where the soul can truly others see

I remember being haned a talk by SWK upon being released as a missionary. It specifically counseled to seek a mate of one's own race. Not only that, he instructed to seek someone of similar economic, social, and educational standing. All this stuff made me rather uncomfortable, because this was 2001. I thought this rascist, classist stuff was dustbin material--but my supposedly inspired mission president was distributing this trash.

Those kinds of differences exist, and we need to be aware of them--but I'd hate to see someone pull the plug on a blossoming relationship because of race or class difference. Maybe there are commonalities that are more important to a couple. Perhaps they like to sing or dance, play sports, watch similar movies, etc. What does that stuff matter then?

Why can't TSCC just let people grow up and make independent decisions?!

to a place where the soul can see completely...
to a place where the soul can see completely...

is there a place such as this upon this earth
doubtful my friend, but looking for it is worth it
a fortnight ago with others looking on
the stew of 'witchhunt' brewed as we sang along
"quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand"
"ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in hand"
why is this so, why does it continue to go on
why can't we rise above the plague and be strong
is it part of the plan, my man, you don't understand
if it's the crumbling from the inside, take my hand
outside the spacious building into a new land
away from the hatred where enlightenment can stand
above the hilltops as a beacon for all to see
the real doctrine divine into a new eternity...

thieves Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> to a place where the soul can see completely...
> to a place where the soul can see completely...
>
> is there a place such as this upon this earth
> doubtful my friend, but looking for it is worth
> it
> a fortnight ago with others looking on
> the stew of 'witchhunt' brewed as we sang along
> "quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to
> understand"
> "ignorance and prejudice and fear walk hand in
> hand"
> why is this so, why does it continue to go on
> why can't we rise above the plague and be strong
> is it part of the plan, my man, you don't
> understand
> if it's the crumbling from the inside, take my
> hand
> outside the spacious building into a new land
> away from the hatred where enlightenment can
> stand
> above the hilltops as a beacon for all to see
> the real doctrine divine into a new eternity...



Nice Rush reference!!! Cool poem.

reminds me of my BIL who discouraged his son from dating asians (where he served his mission). The girl the parents approved of ended up going crazy.

My comments above were directed to trolls who posted disgusting racial slurs in this thread last night. Their posts have been removed (thank you admin).

;o)

P.S. And I still haven't figured out how to reply directly under a post I want to answer, so this is out of order. duh.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/11/2010 09:24AM by shannon.

I had read every post and didn't know what you meant. I should have assumed they were removed, thank goodness.

Around the beginning of 2000-01 school year at BYU I decided to marry my Hispanic girlfriend, I'm white. I go to my temple entrance pass and the second counselor starts asks asking questions about my future wife. All goes well til he finds out she is from Nicaragua. Then he starts in on how I should only marry a white girl and that interracial marriages hardly work out because of, you know he never did say exactly why they didn't work out.

Anyway, he got visibly upset when I said that I wasn't there for his approval and if I can't get my pass we're happy to get married at the courthouse and try to find time for the temple later. Well he gets up in a huff and the bishop comes back and asks if I want to get married I say "yes, I am getting married" and he says here's your recommend. Maybe the counselor was racist but my impression was that he was another morgbot just doing what they do without having actually thought about the topic or its implications. Looking back that was a scary thing, a guy that was more than willing to not consider marrying anyone not of his race on the sole basis of because the church said so and getting angry when others did so.

The funny thing is that we never did get married in the temple and for me that little interview was one more in very long line examples that showed me the importance of never submitting to those people and their "belief". Not going to the temple wasn't a sin thing (though that would have been ok for me), it was just wrong that our whole wedding party would have consisted of my parents. Now, 8 years later, 2 kids wonderful kids, good jobs, nice neighborhood far from Utah, great marriage, etc. You could say that I’m very glad I didn’t bow my head and yes to that prick.

I think that I see the TBMs as not being racist as a whole but from what I’ve seen and heard, I'm not shocked when I do see it come out.

The most recent quote I can find about inter racial marriages is from a 1965 address of Spencer W. Kimball to BYU students:

"Now, the brethren feel that it is not the wisest thing to cross racial lines in dating and marrying. There is no condemnation. We have had some of our fine young people who have crossed the lines. We hope they will be very happy, but experience of the brethren through a hundred years has proved to us that marriage is a very difficult thing under any circumstances and the difficulty increases in interrace marriages. A couple has not committed sin if an Indian boy and a white girl are married, or vice versa. It isn't a transgression like the transgressions of which many are guilty. But it is not expedient. Marriage statistics and our general experience convince us that marriage is not easy. It is difficult when all factors are favorable. The divorces increase constantly, even where the spouses have the same general background of race, religion, finances, education, and otherwise. We are unanimous, all of the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs." (Brigham Young University devotional, 5 January 1965)

His talk probably refelects the general attitude of that time. I think they don't talk about it much anymore because of how people are more accepting and tolerant of cultural differences in our modern day. Nothing has ever been mentioned in the Church handbook about this.

anonow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "We are unanimous, all of
> the Brethren, in feeling and recommending that
> Indians marry Indians, and Mexicans marry
> Mexicans; the Chinese marry Chinese and the
> Japanese marry Japanese; that the Caucasians marry
> the Caucasians, and the Arabs marry Arabs."
> (Brigham Young University devotional, 5 January
> 1965)
>


I so would have liked to ask that dude if he thought it was ok for any Arab to marry any other Arab, or was it better for Syrians not to marry a Jordanian? Did he approve of a marriage between two Mexicans if they weren't both 11/16 white and 5/16 native? Was it ok in his twisted mind for any Caucasian to marry any other Caucasian, or would he have told my Argentine father of Basque ancestry not to marry my Italo-Austrian mother?

Moreover, what were my South Tyrolean great-grandparents to do after their part of Austria became Italian in the 1940s? Marry their new fellow Italians or their old fellow Austrians? Or stick to inbreeding just to be on the safe side? Inquiring minds want to know.

We thank thee, O God, for apostasy.

...some of their grandchildren started adopting kids or marrying people who weren't 100% white and delightsome.