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Posted by: donbagley ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 05:10AM

Russians. It figures, doesn't it? Siberians invaded the Americas, crossing the Bering strait, insisting it stay straight. They set up kiosks all over, pushing vodka and lousy newspapers. They attacked the Crimea River. Call it a fetish for warm water and Ukrainian supermodels.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 10, 2014 10:50PM

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Russians. It figures, doesn't it? Siberians
> invaded the Americas, crossing the Bering strait,
> insisting it stay straight. They set up kiosks all
> over, pushing vodka and lousy newspapers. They
> attacked the Crimea River. Call it a fetish for
> warm water and Ukrainian supermodels.


And if you don't like it, Vladimir Putin says.....

crimea river.

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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 10:47AM

I was working with a Navajo guy one time. He told me there is an old camp fire story they tell about a time when they had boats and the water started rising. As the water rose they'd keep moving to higher ground until they were on an island. As it rose more they would have to leave in their boats and go to another island. But the water kept rising so they'd have to leave again. Good thing they had those boats. I was kind of knocked by that because it's exactly what would happen if you were living in Berringa and the ice started melting in a big way.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 10:53AM

It's nothing like that. The ice melt would have been imperceptible to most everyone. Also remember that these people were at their core nomadic. They went wherever the food was. They were not trying to inhabit the Americas they were trying to find their next meal. No cities, no public works, nothing that would even resemble the cultures that we know today, they were solely trying to survive.

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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 11:16AM

You are right. Their technology would have been similar to what the Alaskan natives were when the white man first met them. That included some very serviceable boats. The ice took possibly a century to melt, so it's not like they had to move every day. But as it rose, they had better get going or things would get dicey. it's hard to make breakfast once the water gets knee deep.

Navajos speak an Athabaskan language, which is identical to some of the tribes in Alaska. It's close enough that when they met they found they could carry on a conversation. It's clear that the Navajos and Apaches originally came from Alaska and migrated south. Their language uses tones as part of it, which is similar to languages in Siberia. To me, it's case closed. They came from Siberia.

Also, as far as I know they don't use the word "Shalom". They don't celebrate Passover either.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 05:13PM

At least they are to the American Southwest; their ancestors came from Alaska maybe 800 years ago... Their language is part of the Na-Dene family (Athabascan) and there's good evidence it links back with the Kets in Siberia...

Boats on the order of fifteen thousand years ago, though? I'm extremely doubtful...

They're doing some core samples of Beringia and finding it was fairly temperate, just the sort of place a group of nomadic sorts might find supported their lifestyle nicely.

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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 06:49PM

I don't think he was telling me the Navajo's came to Arizona in boats. But their ancestors came to Alaska at some point in time. As the ones who became Navajos/Apaches moved out of Alaska their relatives stayed where they were and still are today. The Hopis version of the Navajos showing up in Arizona is they came after the big drought in about 1200, but before Columbus and his boys showed up.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 06:59PM

The Australian aborigines made it to an already-separate Australia over 10,000 years ago at a time when they supposedly hadn't the technology to make boats capable of reaching that far. Yet, there they are.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 07:16PM

It's not that they didn't have boats, it's that recalling them over 15000 years seems a bit over the top. Navajo creation myths are fairly well understood and none of the flood portion would have any correlation to Berringa ice melt. I've seen some tie them to the Missoula floods, and that might make a little more sense. I think it is fairly safe to assume that earliest groups to migrate left behind zero oral evidence of their existence.

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Posted by: helamonster ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 07:21PM


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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 07:35PM

All I can say for sure is a Navajo radio technician I was working with told me they have a story handed down about rising water and having to move from island to island in boats to escape the rising water. Oral traditions are very hard to dig out the truth from the tall tale.

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Posted by: jacob ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 07:44PM

Well as long as you can accept that boat is the word he uses, and that it doesn't mean that it was a boat. One of the central legends is that the Shiprock, El Capitan, and other monoliths of the southern Colorado Plateau were places where the ancestral Navajo took refuge from the monsters at the beginning of the Fourth World. Not boats but volcanic plugs.

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Posted by: somnambulist ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 12:57PM

There is a meteor impact crater in the midwest that is all but hidden because it happened during the ice age and the ice smoothed it out and filled it with gravel and dirt. I wasn't able to successfully find the info I wanted, but did find this-


"Just over 10,000 years ago, the last Ice Age was releasing its grip on the North American plains. The first humans had recently arrived, traveling over a land bridge exposed by the ice. These Native Americans of the Great Plains may have witnessed a spectacular meteor fall."

http://earth.rice.edu/shows/scripts/impact_earth-script.pdf

So that theory of early americans seeing fire in the sky and all that my not be so far fetched.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 09:01PM

Nope. Sorry. Aint' gonna happen, at least as far as 15,000 years ago... And there's no evidence in the archaeological record, either; we see the use of kayaks beginning perhaps around 5,000 years ago, but that's all.

Per Simon Southerton, regarding the settlement of Australia that did involve crossing open water, the distances were probably less that 100 miles. Follow the likely route from the Asian sub-continent through Indonesia, remember sea levels were lower in Ice Age times...

So that journey involved crossing shallow tropical seas... And it's likely the early migrants in that part of the world could see evidence of distant lands, and rafts made of logs lashed together would be adequate.

That's an entirely different prospect than the frigid temperatures in the North Pacific. Defenders of the "boat" notion also point to the fact that since bears could and did survive in that coastal environment (the post-glacial shoreline), then humans could, too. That analogy neglects to consider the reality that bears hibernate, and humans don't.

Seafaring appeals to a lot of the "romantic" elements in the human consciousness (even among anthropologists who are supposedly scientists "grounded in reality"); shoot, Joseph Smith exploited that one (along with being familiar with the Cormorah Islands where Captain Kidd allegedly cashed his treasure; okay, maybe not Smith, but whoever wrote the BOM).

I offered up my own debunking of the BOM with my "Great Lehi Boatbuilding and Sailing Challenge," where I pointed out that without a maritime compass and other navigational aids, transoceanic voyages become highly improbable to the point of impossibility. The Polynesians were the greatest seafaring people there were, and they managed their feats by "island hopping," and they did develop navigational techniques involving wind, stars, and the position of the rising sun (essentially at the equator).

But again, that was in warm water...

Finally, I note that Japan was probably colonized via land bridges that also existed during the Ice Age.

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Posted by: Richard the Bad ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 01:07PM

Some newer info (albeit controversial) on the settling of Australia:

http://news.sciencemag.org/2013/04/who-were-first-australians-and-how-many-were-there

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 02:10PM

I choked a little on that "perhaps an outrigger" speculation, however, because it's "technology from the future" possibly being transported to the past. I'm not a believer in time travel at all.


I'll hang my taxi medallion on the tropical climate, however, and this little bit...

>Also, the study relies on a low number of data points from the early years of human occupation, says Barry Brook of the University of Adelaide in Australia, who has found evidence for a late population rise. The sparse record means that the paper's models can't distinguish between a founding population of 5000 that grew little and a founding population of 100 that quickly multiplied to 5000, he says. "For the most recent times, (the model) is reasonably realistic," he says. "For a long time ago, the model is pretty uncertain." He agrees with Williams that there was a population explosion in the more recent past, but he thinks the continent was settled by at most a few hundred people.

I'm guessing the molecular biologists and geneticists will get a more precise idea of the likely numbers if there's enough "ancient DNA" to be found.

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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 11:00AM

The Hopis and the Navajos say we are in the Fourth world. The three previous worlds were destroyed, but there were always survivors who emerged into the new world to start again. The previous worlds were destroyed by ice (glaciers), Water (floods after the ice) and fire. The destruction by fire is interesting because there is an idea floating around now that North America was clobbered by a big space object during the ice age. There isn't a crater because it could have hit the ice itself, which was up to two miles thick, and the crater would simply have melted. Those old camp fire tales seem to have a lot to them.

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Posted by: Richard the Bad ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 12:48PM

Regarding your fire destruction. What I think you are referring to is the "Younger Dryas impact hypothesis", also known as the "Clovis comet hypothesis". This hypothesis is an attempt to explain the extinction of N. American megafauna in the early holocene.

It's a nice little hypothesis. Unfortunately, the evidence does not support it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 12:48PM by Richard the Bad.

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Posted by: Cactus Jim ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 06:16PM

Oh man, don't just shatter my illusions that way. I might as well saddle up the ol Tapir and ride on out of here.

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Posted by: amos2 ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 05:28PM

Nice info but old news.

It's been a major theory for some time that there was dwell time in Beringia itself and that archeological evidence has been massively obliterated by rising sea levels.

IMO the most parsimonious theory is that the original Beringians migrated long the coast (which was about 300 feet lower then, and there's evidence it was not icebound). Thus the observation that some archeological finds very far south, ie Chile, are as old as northerly finds, ie Clovis.
Then there's the finding that Canada was populated even later, which is consistent with is being covered in an ice shield at first.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 09:29PM

Because something is required to explain the archaeological evidence at Monte Verde...

I've been reading Gary Haynes and Stuart Fiedel on that one... They're not popular, but they do raise some powerful arguments.

See also Anna C. Roosevelt, C. Vance Haynes, Dina Dincauze, and Tom Lynch...

There's also the matter of the 33,000 year old date that appeared out of the blue that Dillehay has pretty much ignored as anomalous...

My objection to coastal migration/colonization is that it involves North-to-South settlements (on a fairly rapid timetable), and that would require adapting to different environments in order to exloit the available resources, whereas moving east-to-west means that similar climates and biospheres are encountered.

I read an interesting piece a few days ago on some speculation on why the Clovis Culture spread so fast; the author suggested they were encountering game animals without any fear of human predators, but that would quickly change in a few generations. So Clovis would've had food to support an expanding population, but they would also need to migrate in order to keep their larders full.

Incidentally, I was reading a piece where the timetable of "The Ice-Free Corridor" may be undergoing revision yet again. We'll have to see about that one.

Finally, I salute Sarah Anzick and Eske Willerslev, two of the principal authors of the Nature piece on the sequencing of the DNA of the 12,600 year old "Clovis Child" in Montana. They worked had to address issues Native Americans have with DNA testing being use to uncover their ancestry. They worked very hard to validate those concerns, and the N/A claims about their sensibilities be trodden upon is particularly valid. Shoot, the BOM does that with the racist notion that Hebrews brought the trappings of civilization to this continent.

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Posted by: White Cliffs ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 10:24AM

"moving east to west"

Yes, just as the Solutreans would have done.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 01:56PM

As the Book of Mormon...

The DNA evidence overwhelmingly says it didn't happen.

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Posted by: The 1st FreeAtLast ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 07:00PM

From Feb. 14/08:

"Human settlement of the New World occurred in three separate stages and involved a 20,000-year layover on the land bridge that once connected Asia to the Americas, scientists say.

"The trip was also a much larger affair than previously thought, involving about 4,500 individuals instead of the hundred or fewer previously estimated to have made the journey.

"'Our model makes for a more interesting, complex scenario than the idea that humans diverged from Asians and expanded into the New World in a single event,' said study co-author Connie Mulligan.

"The study, conducted by researchers at the University of Florida, appeared in a recent edition of the journal PLoS ONE.

"Beringia Land Bridge

"The researchers compared differences in the DNA sequences of modern Native American and Asian populations.

"'By looking at the kinds and frequencies of these mutations in modern populations, we can get an idea of when the mutations arose and how many people were around to carry them,' said study co-author Michael Miyamoto.

"According to the new theory, humans heading east after leaving Asia about 40,000 years ago were blocked by two huge glaciers that met at present-day Alaska.

"With no way forward, the humans settled on the land bridge, called Beringia, that connected Asia and North America.

"There they remained for 20,000 years. Beringia was cold and harsh, comparable to winters in modern-day Siberia. Small populations of mammoth, bison, caribou, and other animals provided sustenance for the migrants.

"Over time descendants developed a unique culture—one that was different from the original migrants' way of life in Asia but which contained seeds of the new cultures that would eventually appear throughout the Americas.

"Then about 15,000 years ago the world warmed and a path through the glaciers opened up. After generations of perhaps imagining what lands might lie beyond the impassable walls of ice, the people living in Beringia moved east into North America.

"Testable Theory

"One of the virtues of the new theory is that it is testable, said David Meltzer, an archaeologist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas, Texas, who was not involved with the research.

"Rising seas submerged much of Beringia about 10,000 years ago.

"But if humans once lived in the region, archaeological evidence should exist, Meltzer said.

"'The [new study's] model implies a long term and significant archaeological presence that, to date, has yet to be found,' he said.

"'[But] that does not mean it won't be.'"

(Ref. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/02/080214-america-layover.html )

ScienceNOW, April 2012: "Land Bridge Caused Wild Temperature Swings":

"Much of the last ice age was characterized by violent climate swings. At seemingly random times beginning about 80,000 years ago, average temperatures in and around the North Atlantic rose or fell by 10°C or more in the course of a decade or two—a pattern that lasted for 70,000 years. Researchers have debated whether the climate swings were driven by sharp variations in solar activity or simply by unstable climatic processes, but a new study also points to a more earthbound culprit: the presence of a land bridge connecting Asia to North America.

"Earth's climate has been relatively stable since the end of the last ice age, says Aixue Hu, a climate scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colorado. And temperatures were fairly stable, too, after the ice age began in earnest about 100,000 years ago. But some 20,000 years later, things became unhinged. Around this time, Hu notes, something else happened: As the ice sheets that covered North America and northern Eurasia snatched up more and more of Earth's water, global sea level dropped to about 50 meters lower than it is today. That exposed a broad strip of land that connected what is today Alaska and Siberia. Ancient animals used the land bridge, which measured as much as 1500 kilometers wide in spots, to roam back and forth between Asia and North America, and many researchers have proposed that early humans used the dry land as a route to the New World. But according to a new study by Hu and colleagues, there were also huge consequences for Earth's climate.

"Hu's team ran two sets of climate simulations: one in which the Bering Strait was open, as it is today, and one in which it was blocked, separating the North Pacific from the Arctic Ocean. In each set of simulations, the researchers gradually added large amounts of fresh water to the North Atlantic between the latitudes of 20° and 50°. At the time, the researchers propose, this swath, which spans the latitudes from southern Cuba to southern England, would have received large amounts of meltwater from Northern Hemisphere ice sheets during warm spells that occasionally punctuated the ice age. Today, the surface waters in this swath affect the temperature and salinity of water even farther north in the Atlantic, a region where surface waters cool, sink to the seafloor, and then flow southward—a critical link of the worldwide conveyor belt of ocean circulation. If waters of the far North Atlantic don't sink, says Hu, much of the large-scale ocean circulation worldwide temporarily collapses. One result: the Gulf Stream, which brings climate-warming waters from the equator to the North Atlantic, comes to a halt.

"In both sets of simulations, surface waters became so fresh that they never got denser than the underlying salty water, and therefore never sank, shutting down ocean circulation and plunging areas around the North Atlantic, including Greenland, into a cold spell. However, the researchers noted a critical difference between the sets of simulations: When the Bering Strait was closed, it took as many as 1400 years for ocean circulation to recover; when the strait was open, the circulation rarely took more than 400 years to recuperate—a sign that ocean circulation is stable when the strait is open, the team reports online today in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"Whenever the ocean circulation shut down in the simulations, temperatures in Greenland suddenly dropped by 12°C—a decrease similar in magnitude to many abrupt cold snaps chronicled in the Greenland ice core records. But in the future, such shifts are unlikely to occur, because now—and in the future, as sea levels are predicted to rise from current levels—the Bering Strait will remain open.

"'This is a very nice study, and their results make a lot of sense,' says Ronald Stouffer, a climate modeler with the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory in Princeton, New Jersey. The team's results 'are a really important contribution,' adds Lloyd Keigwin, a paleoceanographer at Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution (WHOI) in Massachusetts. In 2007, Keigwin and Mea Cook, a geoscientist then at WHOI, proposed that ocean circulation through the Bering Strait helps stabilize climate in the North Atlantic. 'This is good supporting evidence for the model we proposed a few years ago,' he says."

(Ref. http://news.sciencemag.org/earth/2012/04/land-bridge-caused-wild-temperature-swings )

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Posted by: deco ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 09:18PM

Weren't the Navajo the WWII code talkers?

I thought their language was so different from any other was why it was unbreakable.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2014 09:18PM by deco.

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Posted by: SL Cabbie ( )
Date: March 07, 2014 09:35PM

So is the Chipewyan in north-Western Canada (which is a different tribe than the Chipewa; something I only learned yeserday).

And yes, Navajo has some unique features that made it particularly useful in World War II...

But World War II was sixty years ago, and we're talking quite a few centuries earlier.

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Posted by: deco ( )
Date: March 08, 2014 07:31PM

I understand the time difference.

Did the language change so much while crossing the Bering strait to be undecipherable, yet remain close enough for interpretation from Alaska to the Navajo?

I am missing something here.

Or perhaps due the fact it was not a written language, the Japanese simply could not recognize a closeness to nearby languages.

One would think the Germans would have picked up on that, or American linguists would have warned about a possible breach.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2014 07:36PM by deco.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 08, 2014 07:48PM

A recent History channel episode proclaimed that the horse had evolved in NA but was hunted to extinction by natives with a taste for horse flesh. A lucky few supposedly fled west across the land bridge and found their way to Central Asia where they became domesticated.

Dunno about the History channel but I'd believe them any day over FARMS.

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Posted by: Anon for this one ( )
Date: March 09, 2014 07:05AM

I believe in ancient aliens too. I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

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Posted by: Shummy ( )
Date: March 09, 2014 10:28AM

Anon for this one Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I believe in ancient aliens too. I'm glad to know
> I'm not alone.


Cracks me up every time I see the HC mention Horny Joe's encounters with angelic aliens as if it were as true as all the other stuff pulled straight out of this guys arse:


http://images.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search;_ylt=AwrTcayKeRxTERYAAEwPxQt.;_ylu=X3oDMTBsOXB2YTRjBHNlYwNzYwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkAw--?_adv_prop=image&fr=yhs-ddc-linuxmint&va=giorgio+tsoukalos&hspart=ddc&hsimp=yhs-linuxmint

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Posted by: oldklunker ( )
Date: March 11, 2014 04:57PM

I prayed, and the answer is...no answer.


Fake religion

Next?

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