I tend to like Kirby's editorials, but this one bothered me a little.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57676442-80/church-german-uchtdorf-kirby.html.csp

Kirby mentions Uchtdorf's speech about believing despite apparent problems in doctrine and history. He then goes on to say that none of the bothersome stuff bothers him because, well,... it is not about him... or perhaps a better way to say it is because "it has nothing to do with him."

The idea of not letting historical facts bother you is not the problem. The problem is the church denying those facts, or even worse, admitting to them while at the same time claiming as Kirby does, that "they have nothing to do with us".

This detachment after obfuscation is insulting. Kirby claims he already knew about the Mountain Meadows incident. Fine. But did he understand that the church continues to this day to hide or deflect attention from the role the top leadership played in those events?

It is not just that early church leaders and members did stupid stuff, but that today's membership and new converts would not have the same type or quality of faith if they had all the facts.

That is the problem. And that is what this fraud case is about. I just hope it succeeds.

I think he's taking the approach that he was born into it and it's his culture/heritage. He's very NOMish, and probably categorizes his faith (however he defines it) similar to why he likes the Jazz, fry sauce, pronounces it "moun'ains" or skis.


I guess I might say that it would be like saying, "Yeah, I know the US government did bad things they tried to deny (waterboarding), but I'm not going to renounce my US citizenship."

I realize the analogy doesn't exactly fit, but there it is.


My problem with the article is the whole, "I already know that" response from TBMs that they often use, as if knowing some of the ugly things of TSCC's history somehow makes them better because they can't be "shocked" or "surprised".

That is such a crappy analogy. Germans today don't claim to have the one and only truth, complete with secret handshakes that only they know, paid for with tithing and a large chunk of one's life, so that only they can get into heaven. In fact Germany led by Angela Merkel has tried hard to be clear about what happened, admit wrongdoing, and in trying to make sure that the mistakes made will never happen again. I've never heard this kind of owning up to MMM by the mormon church.

They are getting closer to that, though, in the recent essay and new seminary manual.

I believe they even said any Indian involvement (some researchers say ALL the killing was white Mormons) was due to pressure from local Mormon leaders. They said it was awful. They just didn't say it was inspired and likely ordered by BY

The BoM is pure religious fiction...that has nothing to do with me, I still believe it.

The evidence makes it clear that Joe did NOT see God and Jesus...that has nothing to do with me, I still believe it.

Joe and Oliver were NOT visited by John, Peter, James and John. There was no priesthood restoration...that has nothing to do with me, I still believe that I have the power of God.

Unless you don't believe ANY of the restoration story and just attend as a social club, you can't say that these things have nothing to do with you.

Thank you for the best explanation I have heard. I agree with you. Maybe Kirby will come into some integrity when his job doesn't depend on it. Let's hope.....

If Kirby doesn't care that Mormonism is a lie, that says a lot about him.

That was exactly my thought--it is as if he is saying, "I know the whole thing is a fraud (my wife says so) and that is fine with me...these are my people." Does integrity mean nothing in this world?

versus the actual history that shows mormonism is a complete fraud. Cherry picking and cogdis is why he is still a member.

Can you get a temple recommend if you answer "that doesn't have anything to do with me" ?

My mom has the same position, as do the majority of members: its not all true, but its not all bad.

However Kirby makes a living from the church and publicly defends it, that makes him a sell out. Fine keep your religion for whatever compromised logic you want to, but dont spout off about it in public and make money off it.

You have hit on their next marketing campaign. "Mormonism, its not ALL fake"

"Most people hang on to Moism because it fulfills an emotional need."

What I hear Kirby saying is that LDS, Inc. scratches his emotional itch - that it doesn't have much to do with logic or a search for truth. At least he's being honest which is one of his virtues.

That works for some, and doesn't work at all for others. That Mormonism is not true is a deal-breaker for me. It's not even so much that the notion offends me, it's that I personally have zero interest in investing any resources in such an organization. And maybe that's the emotional itch I have to scratch.

I love Kirby though. If more members were like him, maybe I'd show up on the Mormon radar once in a while.

Yes, I love Kirby too. I am looking forward to the day when his integrity outshines his sense of humor.

I'd love to hear what his Ex-mo Evangelical Christian wife and him have to discuss if she reads all his columns...

Ron Burr

Some of his recent posts have been on the edge.

But he is starting to piss backwards.

How many German or Polish citizens said "I'm not a Jew, and whatever the Reich is doing to them has nothing to do with me, they have really good conservative values in spite of their problems"

I know it's a pretty big hyperbole, but the reality is Mormons do this sort of stuff to the LGBT community all the time. I loved John Dehlin's ted talk https://rgs.usu.edu/tedxusu/htm/tedx-usu-2013/john-dehlin/ about being an ally and not accepting injustice or fraud because it doesn't affect you. (At least that's what I got from it)

If Mormonism works for Kirby because he can look past the shadier parts of its history and those events have nothing to with him, fine. The problem I have with this kind of thinking from Mormons in general is that they usually only extend this type of forgiveness to Mormonism only.

You don't often hear from Mormons that they don't care if gays want to marry because it has nothing to do with them. You don't often hear that it doesn't matter if a person doesn't want to be a member of their church anymore because it has nothing to do with them. No, Mormons usually want to hold everyone else to much higher standards than they require from their own "one true" church.

I would be much more willing to accept Kirby's type of argument from Mormons if they approached other issues with the same kind of "it has nothing to do with me" attitude.

Cognitive bias and rationalization are the only ways a thinking person can maintain belief. I personally think that all the red flags, inconsistencies and absurdities in that history and theology have a lot to do with me. I was taught things that weren't true. I'm a little offended. The world is different than a large group of people want me to think it is. This caused me to base most of my life on what comes out to be a big lie. They're trying to control my mind. Yes, it has a lot to do with me.

So if Kirby received stolen money it would be OK with him because the theft had nothing to do with him ?

Isn't this the same excuse that roman catholics use to excuse the child rapists ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/2014 11:57PM by Dave the Atheist.

-that BY covered up the MMM can hardly be denied;

-- WHY would he cover-up if he wasn't responsible?

wouldn't a responsible leader want justice for the victims AND for sake of example to others? D'oh


- (for sake of this discussion) LDS was 'a church' back in the days of DOM. It felt like one, it looked like one. Members could help build the buildings; there were bare-bones financial reports.

Both those are long-gone now, and the ambiance-karma that went along with them. I could feel Love when I attended, listened to conferences, church & local. I even went to the Tabernacle once, heard it in person, it meant something.

no more.

With the subjects that Kirby has written about lately, I can't help but think that he is getting some blowback from a/some over zealous "authority". I wonder what the subject of Kirby's retirement goodbye column will be. We're about the same age. Hope I'm still around to read it.

I love the fact that guys like Kirby exist. He sounds like a grumpy, pragmatic east coast catholic. I really don't think the Church will go down in flames, but it might evolve into a more reasonable organization.

I understand his point. I was a mormon once too, and I would never kill anybody (neither now as an ex-mormon or then as a mormon).

I don't think the average mormon should feel guilty for the MMM, since it really is nothing to do with them.

However, the church leaders should be more open and honest about it, and perhaps make more apologies on behalf of Brigham Young, etc. Everybody knows it's not the current leaders's fault, but it's the least they can do, since it really was a tragedy.

Whether or not the average Mormon should feel guilty about MMM hasn't got a thing to do with it. That's just a typical Kirby apologetic red herring. The issue with MMM is that BY, Living Prophet of God, had something to do with it, and that something was stealing cattle and gold. This is God's one, true church, led by a living prophet?

And that follow-up, that Uchdorf doesn't renounce his Germaness because of history is shockingly disingenuous. German society went through convulsions of guilt and soul-searching over Nazism. To pretend that the full revelations about their "history" didn't change the German society is simply pretending that Germans act like Mormons. That's the typical Mormon strategy--pretend it never happened. When Germans woke up to how much they were lied to they put laws in place to prevent it's happening again. It's illegal in Germany to publically deny the holocaust or display a swastika precisely because of the history produced by these actions. Mormons are lied to? They shrug it off: it's history, got nothing to do with me. Repentance? That's for guilting the dupes into paying.

I commented much to this effect on the Trib website yesterday. The entire foundation of the church's very existense rests on the concept that Joe Smith, Briggy Young and the rest are "Prophets of God" and therefore the LDS church is the "one true church". If these men were bigots, murderers, sexual predators and what-not that very clearly shows they were not prophets and that every extraordinary claim they make is highly suspect. If the men who founded the church are that suspect the entire religion is unsupportable.

Germany on the other hand is a physical place, not a belief system. You cant really get rid of Germany itself no matter how much its history offends you. The government of the country changes, just like the people themselves do as time passes. The only way you could compare the two is if the German government today claimed that Hitler was a prophet of god and that all the world should still follow him.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/14/2014 12:49PM by jesuswantsme4asucker.

+1, Germany's a place, not a belief system.

It is interesting watching two different stories on RFM's feed this morning. Tom Phillips had the balls to stand up for his convictions--to say "the truth matters" and then put his money where his mouth is. Kirby, plays good cop, make everyone happy, all is well in Zion--none of this historical stuff matters, the church is still good etc. etc. Bullshit! What a contrast. I know what kind of person I admire and hope to be in my life.

I don't like the analogy because it is based in racism. Just because a person was a German does not mean that they were Nazis. Being German is not a choice being a Nazi is. My ancestors lived during the time of slavery in America but never supported the institution. Not all Chinese vote for communism.

In this regard Kirby has a lot in common with the BYU apologists at Fairs and/or Farms etc…….There just aren't many employers hiring middle aged men with their peculiar skill sets.
Better be a little nice to the hand that feeds you.