I just put out an earlier post regarding what to do about my 20 year daughter who is just starting to go back to TSCC - partly because she wants to go to BYU.

Question: When interviewing for jobs, and building / working in a career in business (her interest) how - in general - would a degree from BYU be viewed - liability / neutral or benefit?

I know it completely depends on the circumstance. ie - When interviewing with a very fundamentalist Christian it could be a liability, possibly (?). On the other hand, mormons are sometimes viewed favorably for their known work ethic, etc.

But what would the overall impression be? I have no idea at this point if she would graduate as a non-mormon or mormon. (Currently she's still on church records, but at this point she doesn't have a 'testimony' -but that could change).

Depends on the program and the employer.

BYU has very good accounting and business schools, as well as certain specialties (illustration, robotics) that are appealing to some employers.

Any other degree, though -- like sociology, psychology, MechEng, etc. -- will be viewed about the same as that from any other 4-year accredited university.

Most employers in Utah are aware that many BYU grads are now ex-Mormons (we've hired a couple, and I suppose I should count myself among their ranks). Most employers outside Utah don't really care that much.

Some more detail on what degree she intends to pursue and where she wishes to obtain employment would probably help.

Edit: That is weird, I didn't mean to post this here as a response to Alpiner. My bad!

Most ethical professionals would view a BYU degree neutrally. Even if they think someone is a Mormon, that wouldn't automatically disqualify them.

If someone were to disqualify someone because of a degree from BYU then they are probably a terrible employer to work for anyways. It is important to work for people with integrity.

BYU has a lot of really good, well known programs as well. If that is one she picks, then it could potentially be a positive.

That being said, I think her time at BYU will be an overall negative rather than a positive. She can find good education in Utah without the soul-sucking culture that exists there.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 03:53PM by snb.

People automatically assume you are a Utah Mormon. IF you stay Mormon, there is a fairly strong alumni network but that network tends to be a boy's club because good Mormon women stay home with the kids unless their husband dies or something. They aren't encouraged to have real careers, even now. I bet if you watch the Relief Society session of conference it will come up. Of course, a lot of women have to work to help support their families, but a real career is not really encouraged, so I think the network would be much less useful.

I don't think my BYU degree is a handicap but I used it outside the US in my 20s and went to grad school when I came back. BYU seldom comes up.

Thanks! That's helpful.

She plans to pursue business - human relations - human resources. She doesn't want to work in accounting, sales or the payroll / benefits part of HR, but more the "people" - company culture, etc. part (which she'd be great at).

I was mostly concerned about businesses outside of UT - who might assume she's mormon based on her resume saying BYU on it.

BYU has a well regarded B school - you have to have good grades to get in and stay in. While accounting is the major you hear about, they have good OB people. The faculty are known enough that I would think the training is decent. But a quick look at the faculty shows that there is only 1 tenured woman in that area, and 2 more full-time faculty, though there are several part-time adjunct women. This my area of expertise and usually there are more female students than men, and faculty at most places I have taught represents a pretty even male/female split. Her faculty role models are second class citizens...

If she is interested in that area, the I would recommend she try to graduate in 3 years and get a master's from Rutgers HR program, MIT (it's not as math geek driven as you would expect), or the LIR programs at Cornell, Michigan State, Minnesota, or Urbana Champaign. Most of those offer decent scholarships to good students, are easier to get into than top MBA programs, and have connections to a lot of big companies who offer good paid summer internships, and if you push you can finish in 3 semesters. I saw job/salary prospects jump from "maybe a receptionist" to $85k in NY at Citibank because if that MA. Rutgers is located in a place where a lot of major firms want to hire their students, but they have an oversupply of foreign exchange students who lack work permission. According to their faculty a lot of American students do a year, get a summer internship and then stay in at their employer, finishing up part-time with their costs covered by the company. If she is serious about that career, it is a brilliant plan. And if she has her goals set, she is less likely to get sidetracked with the marriage/mission brainwashing.

Very interesting vh65. I hadn't thought about that before. But it's so true - the girls aren't encouraged to have 'real' careers. And I remember when I was starting to really break through with my career- when my oldest was 2 and I had another one on the way - I was so proud of myself for setting it all aside to be a stay-at-home-Mom. Granted, part of me really did want that to stay home with my little ones, but I was also definitely driven direction due to G Conference talks, church lessons, etc.

Thank goodness - in some ways - that I was forced back in to work out of financial need. My career isn't exactly where I would like it to be, but it's pretty good - and MUCH further along, and MUCH more satisfying than it would have been had I not been forced into pursuing it due to need. During that time where I was being a stay at home Mom (I'm a violinist / violin teacher) I couldn't even LISTEN to classical music because it HURT so much to not be involved with it.

Alpiner nailed it. I have two younger brothers that just graduated from BYU in accounting and both have been recruited by reputable companies and offered $65K + right out of school.

I'd say it's viewed favorably by the majority of employers.

A liability unless she wants to work for TSCC.
My friend who transferred to the U of U after BYU had to take several classes over because she wasn't up to snuff with the U of U students who had taken the same classes. Set her back a year.

The conservative large corporation on the West coast where I worked used to LOVE Mormons. They make docile, dependable, obedient workers.

I am now 60 years old and still have situations at work where I have to provide my CV / Certifications / diplomas.

Every time I cringe because I do not want to be associated with the university named after the polygamist and misogynist BY- and the wacky religion.

I always respond with a joking quip, "Hey, don't judge me when you see where my parents made me go to college." It breaks the ice and usually it tips them off I am NOT Mormon.

It would have been a lot easier in my career not having to be embarrassed about it.

Although back in the 70's I do feel my degree in Microbiology/Chemistry was inadequate because my curriculum sidestepped evolution (which is not the case now at BYU). I did OK having graduated from BYU but I had a few gaps I filled by myself. All that time in religion classes could have been used more productively. Oh well.

A degree is just the tool to get your foot in the door. Your performance and continuing education will be the key to your career advancement and fulfillment.

Professionally it won't set her back. Contrary to what TBM's think, mormonism is totally insignificant. People on the outside don't hate it; they simply don't care. People where I work have interviewed BYU grads, and the issue of religion wasn't even a consideration. It was all about their qualifications and the human interaction. (I can't give TBM employers the same credit, but BYU would only help her in that case :) And my experience is that a BYU degree is generally viewed as higher quality than a basic state college.

Socially, it's another story. I'm embarrassed to have BYU on my resume, and it also makes for awkward conversations. For example, a couple weeks ago the doctor asked me where I went to college. Awkward.

But, it can also be a great conversation starter. Here's what almost always happens when somebody asks me where I went:

"Where did you go to college?"
- "That is a long story. I can tell you but it will take a lot of explaining"
"Really?" <interest piqued>
- "I went to BYU, but I'm not mormon anymore"
<begin long heart-to-heart conversation about how we both are now atheist and dislike religion>

Bottom line, I missed out on some life experience, but I don't regret graduating from BYU.

I wouldn't say it is a career liability, after graduating from BYU I found it fairly straightforward to get interviews with several international brand names, and BYU never came up, I also didn't play up any religious aspect of my life. Aside from the BYU name, there was nothing that could indicate religion in any way, and I think that might be what employers would be most worried about. On the other hand, it has been a bit of a personal liability. I have already gotten tired of having to explain some unusual things in my past, and this just adds another thing that requires some artful dodging on my part to have to avoid the whole strange story. It hasn't been a negative, per we, but I dislike being the center of attention and this is one of those quirky things that people like to hear about. So it is personally, slightly uncomfortable to have to talk about in social settings, but it makes for a great conversation starter.

Important point: I assume she was accepted as a "member"? Or is she paying nonmember tuition? This is important. Because nonmembers have no restrictions on what they say or believe. But a member who doesn't attend church regularly or talks to others about the stuff in the CES letter or is just open about not believing can lose the BYU ward bishop's endorsement. That means expulsion and an honor code hold that makes it impossible to get a transcript, needed to transfer those credits.

It sounds crazy but I have seen in exMormon boards several stories of BYU students near graduation who lost their faith, were too public about their nonbelief, and were trying to find ways to avoid starting their degrees again from scratch. If she goes as a member without a testimony she needs to really watch what she says and does. You can't just switch to nonmember status - you lose your spot at BYU if you say you are no longer a member or resign.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 03:40PM by vh65.

I would pay a couple thousand to convert my BYU degree to some other school like UCLA or some such

Agreed! Make it USC

If her degree is in business, it's a benefit, regardless of where she moves afterwards. BYU apparently has a top notch business program.

All respectable and wise companies don't even allow their employees to mention religion during the interview process. I know, I interview prospective employees fairly regularly. It's legally dangerous to allow religion to even possibly become a factor. She can discuss her beliefs with her co-workers after she's hired.

Outside of Utah, and especially on the East Coast, a BYU degree carries a lot of negative baggage. It's like getting a degree from Bob Jones Univ. BYU is not a prestigious university. It offers few PhD programs. It's professors are not highly regarded. Local Utah media may make it seem like BYU researchers are cutting edge, but it is not a serious research institutions by $$$ or academic contributions. The law program is known for it's extremely socially conservative positions. Unless you're a Mormon or work for a Company with a Mormon owner, a BYU MBA is nothing special.

I would be less likely to interview you if I saw BYU on your degree. I work in a science field.

"I would be less likely to interview you if I saw BYU on your degree. I work in a science field."

Knowing that, I would be much less likely to ever want to work for you. That is unethical behavior.

One could assume that scientists would be interested in avoiding any sort of preconceived notions, especially when it comes to providing employment. Not even Mormons deserve to work for people with integrity issues.

Consider this though...

A scientific field requires application of scientific critical thinking skills. If the person came from a religious school with a history of suspending critical thinking to make science fit the religion, the person ~could~ have inconsistent reasoning skills and ~might~ resort to magical thinking on the job.

I agree this might be questionable and objectionable to even vocalize this openly. I work in a scientific field. I have fundy Christians working with me who resort to "Oh, well, it was God's will" when they fail at a task.

You want to make sure the person is capable of forming the conclusions based on the evidence, and not making evidence fit conclusions (which is the essence of religious thinking).

I would make an effort not to be biased when hiring for my team, however I would pick up cues for how openly the person appears to resort to religious thinking to assure the person does not compromise good science. You can't come out and ask if they are able to compartmentalize their preconceived religious beliefs. Sometimes you can notice and determine if the person's skills fit the job.

It's like noticing zillions of grammar errors on a resume for people who are applying for a technical writing position. It's OK to discuss the person's writing ability, but not OK to inquire about religious thinking. So, you try not to consider it unless you see those "grammar errors" in the thought process.

For example, having people work on vaccine development who don't understand or "believe" evolution could hinder the process. Additionally, the person comes off as a hypocrite because he does not comprehend the foundation behind the job he is performing.

It's a touchy topic and you have to be very careful about bias and conclusions made. I would not ever vocalize anything about this topic on the job, but I feel I can be more open here about my concerns. A Bob Jones or XX Christian College diploma just makes me ask different kinds of questions.

Likewise, I suppose a strongly Christian business (there are many here in the South) prefers the cues that the person is Christian. They also need to hire to suit the job.

As much as we want to be unbiased, age, appearance, background and gender do influence the people making decisions. We just hope we can recognize it and not let the decision be based on unethical judgements.

In the end, the person's work ethic, accuracy and insight will advance her quickly on my team.

Just my take.

Yeah, but you can't be 100% certain that they really think that their religious beliefs should influence the science that they are doing.

Also, is BYU specifically known for making their science fit religion? I never went there, but I've heard the exact opposite.

I just don't think you can rationally make those sorts of assumptions about people.

Edit: I did want to mention that I highly respect this statement: "In the end, the person's work ethic, accuracy and insight will advance her quickly on my team."

I feel the same way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 04:31PM by snb.

"Yeah, but you can't be 100% certain that they really think that their religious beliefs should influence the science that they are doing."

This statement is absolutely correct. However when you are in a hiring situation and you are faced with two or more people who are equally qualified, then the religious background could be the tipping point to hire someone else. I'm not talking about selecting people who are less qualified. When you are hiring you are usually faced with several candidates that are equally qualified. At that point you have to find some reason to make you final decision.

It is certainly NOT the Harvard of the west as touted.
UC Santa Cruz is rated higher

I've heard people refer to it as "the lard's school." This made me gag and was one of the reasons that I hate the school even when I was a TBM.

I've never heard the claim that it is the Harvard of the west, but even hearing that makes me want to gag a bit.

Wow - lots of great ideas and thoughts here. Thanks so much. Considering that she's studying business, it appears that a degree from BYU won't hurt.

Thanks again.

BYU's business school is well regarded.

I have a degree from YBU, but I am very pleased that my kids plan to go elsewhere

Your question is about the degree, I understand.

The question you should have asked is what is the BYU experience like.

It is a seminary experience that does not foster a university environment, but provides an educational experience in harmony with religious programming. You may find yourself with a functional degree that qualifies you for employment opportunities.

You will not have had a legitimate university experience where you have been exposed to a diversity of people, ideas, and experiences.

Is that useful? You decide.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 06:46PM by gentlestrength.

There was a time when YBU was a much better experience. I could not stand going there now. It is much more repressive than it used to be. There is so much time wasted on religion classes. The only strong reason I see for going there is if you believe you will meet your one and only there and only there. Otherwise, I would go somewhere with diversity and freedom.

I was there when President/Soon-to-be Apostle Jeffrey Holland made part of the Honor Code, helping your fellow BYU students keep their commitment to the Honor Code.

Canonizing being a snitch.

What an awful culture for being young, learning, and learning through safely making mistakes.

Degrees aside, I work for a government contractor. The transfer I recently obtained went well, even though Mormons who knew I'd left the church were part of the hiring process at the new location. I simply doubt that those Mormons ever dared cause any fuss about the decision, as they'd be accused of bias. To their credit, the US govt is very vigilant about biases of that sort.