I've been out for a few years, but my husband is still in. He has no desire to research the church but will listen to me (kind of) when I tell him what I've learned. He just wants very reputable sources for information and is pulled less by emotions than by fact, which is hard when most contrary information comes from anti-mormon sources. In the past I've told him a lot about things that bothered me, primarily polygamy, but I realize now that that issue appeals to women more. My husband's not a bad guy, but it does seem like the idea of polygamy doesn't enrage men as often like it does women. My husband just calculates it to be something we can't understand in this life.

For the past few years we've lived happily supporting each other's belief, but I want to give it another shot and appeal more to his way of thinking. Any advice from any men on the board about what helped them see the light?

You might start with the mentions of horses, etc. in the Book of Mormon that archeologists all agree did not exist in the US at that time.

Or the fact that the modern church is using tithing dollars to build a huge mall.

Or the changes in the text over the years.

Or the complete lack of divine inspiration, training, or wisdom in the decisions of the men who serve as bishops.

Just some starters.

For me: first vision and BoA

This is a good place to start.

For the first vision, show him the original 1835 history of the church account in the Messenger and Advocate. This is available on the BYU library site. The account says that he was praying to know if God existed and if he was accepted of him when an angel appeared, said not to join any church, his sins were forgiven, etc... The official history that members accept today just doesn't fit with this account.

Then, show him Lecture Fifth in the Lectures on Faith. This is from around the same time period (1835) and it makes it clear that God the father is "a personage of spirit". It also doesn't fit with the current story.

Then, there are the multiple accounts of the first vision. Some TBM's try to reconcile the differences, but after reading the first history, Lecture Fifth, the teachings on the godhead in the BoM, etc... it's painfully clear that the first vision story was a late addition. Pro-LDS historians even acknowledge that Joe was NOT persecuted for telling his tale as a youth...that there's no evidence that he told ANYONE, including his own family, in the 1820's, and very few people had even heard it in the 1830's. The JoD also includes quotes from BY and others that show that the first vision wasn't part of the restoration story.

For my husband it was other men attempting to boss him around and not use his own common sense. It infuriated him. He was thrilled to hear it when I told him what i'd been reading.

My dh was a 20 yr convert, not bic. That made a difference.

Also, at his day job he's in charge of 100's of people, and millions of dollars. He's had a LOT of practice making sound decisions. He has a lot of common sense. Telling him to not use that was too much for him to take.

He refers to those men as pencil neck pukes. I think that's funny.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 09:57PM by madalice.

actually, tbm friendly sources for historical inconsistances can be found. Start with the BOA. When you hear a part of history that's left out, tell him about it. (oh, did you know why Emma's dad disliked Joseph?)

Polygamy can be useful, actually.

1. Joseph's lying about it
2. leaders used cohersion
3. leaders teaching evils of monogamy
4. practiced after manifesto, lied about it
5. believed it must be practiced to go to ck
6. now monagamy is the way God wants it

This. It was a stepping stone to get me out of the church. I could never have treated my wife as poorly as Joseph treated his wife / "wives."

For me, it was finding out how batshit crazy Young Earth Creationism is, especially when you throw a global flood into the equation as well. If your husband doesn't believe in Young Earth Creationism or a global flood then refer him to the court case where the barristers for TSCC argued that Tom's allegations were the religious beliefs of TSCC, which they couldn't argue if it wasn't doctrine.

This:

"Joseph plagiarized portions of other papyri to restore Facsimile 2"
http://cesletter.com/debunking-fairmormon/book-of-abraham.html#6

is one of the most convincing things I've ever read.

It shows pictures of the circular Egyptian hypocephelus, and clearly shows where Smith put in strings of characters from a different form of Egyptian writing copied from the scrolls he had. Such a lame plagiarism. Not even as educated as Mark Hoffman's, who took the time and trouble to make coins and other documents that would be correct for their culture and time period.

As a man, I have to say that blind obedience was the thing I couldn't stand. A real man would nt abide by that principle. It's for wimps.

"He just wants very reputable sources for information and is pulled less by emotions than by fact, which is hard when most contrary information comes from anti-mormon sources."

What your husband need to realize---and maybe you can help him with this---is that the term "anti-Mormon sources" does not equate to it being false or deceptive. Obviously, any material which challenges the church's legitimacy is by definition "anti-Mormon." Your husband will simply have to study both sides of the issues, and decide which side he believes is telling the truth. One of the best resources, which tells both sides, is
mormonthink.com. Tell him to read the material there, and if he finds stuff that's untrue, to make a list of it or something, so he can compare both sides.

"it does seem like the idea of polygamy doesn't enrage men as often like it does women. My husband just calculates it to be something we can't understand in this life."

What little I learned about polygamy when I was Mormon didn't bother me much either, but that's because the church didn't teach me the negative aspects of it that WOULD have enraged me. When I learned the truth about it, I was disgusted. Here are some resources your husband can look over:

http://signaturebooks.com/2010/11/excerpt-in-sacred-loneliness/

http://wivesofjosephsmith.org/

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_widows.htm

http://www.i4m.com/think/polygamy/polygamy_illegal.htm

Amen and amen.

For a "faithful" source of difficult topics, try Bushman's biography of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling. Maybe as you read it, bring up "interesting" things you learn as you go. Like, "Did you know Joseph didn't even have the plates in the same room as he 'translated' them. How did that work?"

And just as randy says, the church leaves out a lot of detail in teaching about polygamy. I was enraged after about 15 minutes of wading through the wivesofjosephsmith.org website. Testimony over.

Mine was a decision prior to the Internet based upon the life experience I preferred to have. I found the role of "judge in Israel" repulsive. I wanted nothing to do with that culture. I also was prepared to have a coming to Jesus talk with Jesus If I got it wrong, but really Mormonism seemed to be such a rules driven, oppressive culture that it removed all joy from mortality. As an adolescent I created a chant for my hard on moments, "sex is good, but not before marriage". The first part was right. The very purpose Mormonism teaches we exist. It also removes all ease in sinning by marginalizing the Atonement of Christ as something that should never be used unless absolutely necessary.

Ask a Mormon, a TBM, what their sins are and they will almost always give a stupid list of ommission from a task list of stupid things hat should never have been put on a list in the first place.

Mormonism is emasculating or sadistic for a man. I preferred neither, so I left.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 09:59PM by gentlestrength.

I'm gay. I stopped going to church because it made me feel like human garbage.

I stopped believing many years later, after I had convinced myself I was dammed anyway, and was down there with murderers, I realized that what the inspired leaders of the church were telling me, that I chose to be gay and could stop if I chose and had enough faith; prayed and fasted enough, was all bullcrap. I didn't choose to be gay and didn't want to, but I was. I realized that if these men were so wrong on this subject, maybe they were wrong on others.

When I finally had the internet and got up the courage to search topics related to Mormonism (I literally believed Satan would appear behind me if I went to "anti" sites), I found so many more lies.

The church has literally ruined my life. I was so convinced I was going to hell that I went off the deep end, having lots of anonymous sex, drugs, and wasting years.

What made me not believe?

At about thirty I started wondering where God came from. I haven't turned around from that question.

<wrong location>



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2014 09:33PM by Chad.

Make sure he knows everything about LDS polygamy and Joseph Smith in particular. He took the wives of other, righteous and living priesthood holders. He took young teenagers as wives under threat. The marriages can be confirmed using online government registries.

Check out the Salamander Letter (the recent Church wasn't inspired and it purchased a forgery).

Modern prophets' media interviews are terrible. Hinckley in particular evaded the question that he was a prophet, and he lied to the world when he said he doesn't know if the church teaches people can become gods. He's the PROPHET - how could he not know if the church teaches something? Shouldn't the holy spirit have told him then and there?(http://mormonthink.com/prophetsweb.htm#public)

Discrimination against people of dark skin. Statements made by Brigham Young in particular. Note that Joseph Smith ordained some dark skinned people to the priesthood. So why would God let some be ordained, and then take it away when racist Brigham Young came along? (You can confirm his racism by reading any of his writings on the matter). If Brigham Young was preaching false doctrine, why did it take so many prophets after him to get it corrected? (Mormonthink website again has good references for this).

Why don't mormon prophets prophecy?

Joseph Smith's first vision had different accounts. I believe this is acknowledged by the church in one of their recent essays.

Church use of funds to buy shopping malls, etc, and very little charitable use of funds.

There are so many historical issues that weigh against the church. The only thing for it is then the "still, small voice" of the "spirit" and the testimony in the heart. You need to help your husband realize that the feeling he is associating with the "holy spirit" doesn't mean that something is the truth. This could be done by having him pray and asking if something he's read against the church is true. Help him realize that by the same method he believes his church is true, people in other religious groups (including cults) believe their's is true.

Spiritual experiences are a part of being human. They are not unique to the mormon church. The mormon church simply uses it to manipulate people into believing.

The church also teaches to keep praying until you receive a confirming answer to your prayer. If you pray and ask if the book of mormon is true and you don't receive an answer, you are told to pray again. Keep praying. Fast and pray. Pray harder. Until eventually you manufacture the experience you have convinced yourself is there and you trick yourself into believing. The mormon prayer is a mind control device. There is no such thing as, "I got an answer that the BOM isn't true", only that you need to pray harder until you KNOW that it is.

I actually prayed before leaving the church and I had a wonderful feeling of peace, clarity and serenity that it was the right thing to do. I gave the mormon god a chance to warn me away from leaving, and there was no response. And I was honestly searching for the truth, in humility, trying to make the right choice.

He needs to realize that information itself isn't good or evil. It simply is. A true church should be able to stand for itself, and its members should be able to read everything available in the world and only receive a stronger spirituality. He should be highly suspicious that the church censors information, and labels extra information (aka, "antimormon literature") as evil and of the devil and a weapon of the adversary against testimonies. So they're saying that after 30 years of good church teaching and scripture study, you can read 15 minutes of online material and your testimony will be at risk? That doesn't seem right.

B of A

No death before the fall - 500 million year old fossils

Adam and Eve first humans - evolution

JS con man and sex predator. If you have a 14 year old daughter ask him how he would like it if creepy J Smith brow beat and manipulated you into letting him have sex with her. The man was a piece of garbage!

Lots of stuff, including:

http://www.amazon.com/First-Peoples-New-World-Colonizing/dp/0520267990/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395629121&sr=8-1&keywords=first+peoples+in+a+new+world

BoAbraham

Steve Benson's account of TSCC handling of ETB

My sister-in-law tells me that my TBM brother is very disturbed by the financial dealings and policies of the church; I can only hope that it will lead him to leave.

He's always been able to explain away historical stuff, but I think the fact that his money is being misused by an organization in which he believes so strongly is hard for him to take, since it's happening right now, which I hope will lead him to question the idea of inspired leadership as a whole.

(This makes him sound like Scrooge, but he and his family went through several years on unemployment, getting food from food pantries and through WIC, with the Salvation Army providing Christmas presents for their two kids for two Christmases in a row--and the LDS church was nowhere to be found as far as real, material help.)

I kind of hear of the misuse of funds, but because I don't live in Utah, nor am I active, I feel very out of the loop. Do you have any good resources for that kind of info? It just seems like the church is so secretive with money, that I am not sure there is any good source.

It's funny, that stuff didn't bug my husband very much. He totally bought the line that no tithing money was used, seriously made me want to hit a wall every time he excused the church's building.

Even though he is done with the church now it still doesn't bother him that much. It's interesting what details push certain people over the edge.

If DH believes in the truthfulness of modern revelation, the many changes in modern revelation can potentially reveal the fraud. God is not supposed to change, at least no so quickly. ALL of the major points of Mormon doctrine have changed over time. (I acknowledge that there may be an exception. Please chime in if you know one.) It is fair for you to ask DH sincere questions about which version of Mormon history or doctrine you are to believe. Whatever it might be that he bases his testimony upon, the first vision, the coming forth of the BofM, the priesthood, the temple, etc., it all changed over time.
- None of JS's family or BY believed in the first vision. (Ask DH to help you find BY's testimony of the first vision)
- JS taught that God the Father did not have a physical body (Lectures on Faith)
- etc.
On top of that, the BofM presupposes the historicity of the flood and the Tower of Babel. It is fair for you to express to him that in order for you to be a TBM you must accept this, and if you can't, he should be willing to help you work through this.

Another good one is the late addition of the priesthood restoration story. I believe it's D&C 20 that was updated years later to include the visits of John, Peter, James & John. I believe the original Book of Commandments version is also available on the BYU library site, so it's very easy, using only LDS sources, to show that the current "revelation" including these accounts is back-dated. Then you could go to FAIR and try to find the explanation. I've found articles that mention the "allegation" that the revelation is back-dated, but then they dodge the question...they try to defend it with other early mentions of the priesthood.

Try the CES Letter: http://cesletter.com/

If JC restored the gospel then why do we have to correlate history? Did Jesus mess it up? Was Jesus embarrassed by the men he chose to lead? Why can't the Holy Ghost witness of imperfect leaders? How could JC sustain JS as a prophet when he broke so many commandments? Why must I be better than JS?

What box would I put JS in? Good or evil? The more I read about him the more I throw the stories in the evil box.

If I believed in god I would have to think god put me in a cult to see if I could get out of its grasp.

The big kicker is the Q15 and sins of omission. They lie about the history of the church. They are not honest men. Gods children wouldn't have to lie to tell the story of how JC restored the church.

If you've got young daughters, have him read Helen Marr Kimball's diary.

Polygamy wasn't a game-changer for me. It's becoming increasingly hard to argue against polygamy in today's society, given that the current generation has adopted much more libertarian attitudes in regards to who can marry who.

However, the involvement of 14-year-olds in polygamy? That's a serious and terrible thing. Imagining my own kids (whenever that happens) involved in it caused some pretty deep introspection.

I was out before my husband. He had a few things on his shelf but it was still being held up. I gave him the link to the CES letter, honestly that didn't help because he trust FAIR more than mormonthink. Then he read something about polyadry and for whatever reason that caused his shelf to crack. He started watching ex mormon videos and listening to people who had been where he had been helped him realize he would be okay without the church.

Now if only we could get our oldest teen free but I can only blame myself for his indoctrination, I love and support him and hope some day he will understand and see the light.

Best of luck to you.

For me it was the BoA, first vision BS, Hinkley's slipperiness and ever changing doctrine.

If you have daughters I would have him read the threatening letters he wrote to girls he wanted to bed. Before you have him read them, ask him if he could name you a wife of JS besides Emma. Read from any number of journal entries or correspondences between JS and these young girls and ask your husband:

"If polygamy was God's will, these women and girls helped JS be the great man you hold him to be. They should be celebrated as historical church figures. Instead, you cannot tell me one of the other 32 wives' names. Lastly, would you be okay with the church sweeping our daughters' lives under the rug to protect a leader?"

Where could one find these letters? I am out but always looking for more information.

Good points. You could also have him study D&C 132 and ask him if he honestly believes the threats to Emma came directly from Jesus. Then, ask why Joe didn't live the principle as commanded. Emma wasn't even the first wife "sealed" to Joe. Why did Joe take other wives without consulting Emma? If such a difficult principle to understand was required, don't you think a loving God would reveal it to Emma first?...or at least give her a powerful confirmation that it was a correct principle?

Polygamy was a big one for me. I knew about BY and polygamy, but I had never heard that Joe practiced it...even though I attended seminary, attended BYU, and took three church history classes. The true history was deliberately withheld. I shared the Helen Mar Kimball story with my wife, and told her that I would have killed Joe myself if I was in Heber's shoes.

Ask him how he feels about living the principle of polyandry like Joseph Smith did....