Recovery Board
: RfM
Recovery from Mormonism (RfM) discussion forum.
Has anyone heard of a BYU prof who's left the church, lost his/her job and retirement? I'm sure there are a few, but I can imagine several closet exmos teach there.
I know of one who left (booted) for being gay. Left the church and BYU.
Lynn is an amazing lady. Actually, her entire family is amazing for what they went through. Check out her book "Unveiling Grace".
http://www.unveilinggrace.com/video/unveiling_grace_full.htm
http://www.unveilinggrace.com/video/unveiling_grace_full.htm
Half the professors at BYU are closet ex-Mormons.
That sounds about right.
I would love a citation on this.
utahstateagnostics Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would love a citation on this.
Because it's "closet" exmormons referenced here, a citation might be quite difficult.
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would love a citation on this.
Because it's "closet" exmormons referenced here, a citation might be quite difficult.
Yes, I know, but forgive me if I don't take someone's word for it. The last time I did that, I ended up giving away 2 years of my life and ten percent of my paycheck.
=]
=]
used to make many of the Church propaganda films you have seen.
http://www.theatre.utah.edu/about-us/faculty-staff/tim-slover-ph-d/
http://www.theatre.utah.edu/about-us/faculty-staff/tim-slover-ph-d/
David Cowles, my favorite English teacher at BYU, left BYU because he found out the church wasn't all it claimed to be. I'm not surprised - he seemed really liberal when he was there and man, he was a great instructor on Victorians and Postmodernism.
I know close to a dozen professors in sciences at various BYU campuses in chemistry, physics, math, biosciences and in paleontology. Of those, only about three have admitted to me to even examine the issues. They just decided that some answers won't be given in this life and have put it on a shelf. They don't like discussing it much.
My wife's uncle is a science prof at BYU. If he were ever questioning, or secretly didn't believe stuff, I wish I knew. That would be amazing.
Pensions are going away, replaced by 401Ks or equivalent. I do not know of any circumstances where a 401k contribution from an employer can be taken back by the employer. I believe BYU retirement plans are that type of defined-contribution plan. They are tightly regulated by federal law.
Pensions, aka defined-benefit plans, can be lost if an employee leaves before vesting, and there may be contractual ways the plan can be lost if the employee is fired for cause. Pensions are also pretty tightly regulated by state and federal laws. Once a person is collecting their pension, they can extend the finger of their choice to LDS Inc without fear of losing their pension.
If an employee is forced to leave before they have worked there long enough to qualify for a pension, then they are SOL, but that is true at all places that still have pension plans.
Pensions, aka defined-benefit plans, can be lost if an employee leaves before vesting, and there may be contractual ways the plan can be lost if the employee is fired for cause. Pensions are also pretty tightly regulated by state and federal laws. Once a person is collecting their pension, they can extend the finger of their choice to LDS Inc without fear of losing their pension.
If an employee is forced to leave before they have worked there long enough to qualify for a pension, then they are SOL, but that is true at all places that still have pension plans.
As to whether the church can revoke pensions or not, one would agree that they are closely regulated by the federal government. At least that is what I thought, but to be sure I phoned and talked with someone at the U.S. Department of Commerce. They regulate all those things, such as pensions, unless a church is involved. Then we come into the area of separation of church and state and the government cannot stop a church body from suspending a pension.
BYU is not a church. It is a school. The faculty are employed by the school. Federal regs still apply.
The wonderful Stephen Epperson is a very high profile former BYU professor exmormon. He is now a UU minister in Vancouver, B.C. He authored a number of books, e.g. "Mormons and Jews," during his time at BYU.
He had been on the watch list for awhile because he got a little too close to teaching the mormon history that you don't teach in mormon history classes. His bishop had been told to watch for a reason not to give him a temple recommend. This was back in the 90s. He started the UU fellowship in Utah Valley and used to come down and preach for us twice a month. At that time he was doing his ministerial internship at South Valley church. He was so awesome.
From what I recall, his wife had beefs with the church before he did. She wanted to teach her kids more social justice type things, so they made a deal that they would attend church twice a month and two sundays a month they would go work with the homeless in SLC. That gave the church/BYU their opening to fire him because they'd made a rule that BYU professors couldn't be eligible for a temple recommend unless they attended church 3/4ths of the time. And if they aren't eligible for a TR, they can be fired from BYU.
It backfired on the church. Instead of scaring him into submission, it gave him the freedom to leave. He went to Seminary, became a minister and his family thrived and is very close and very happy.
He had been on the watch list for awhile because he got a little too close to teaching the mormon history that you don't teach in mormon history classes. His bishop had been told to watch for a reason not to give him a temple recommend. This was back in the 90s. He started the UU fellowship in Utah Valley and used to come down and preach for us twice a month. At that time he was doing his ministerial internship at South Valley church. He was so awesome.
From what I recall, his wife had beefs with the church before he did. She wanted to teach her kids more social justice type things, so they made a deal that they would attend church twice a month and two sundays a month they would go work with the homeless in SLC. That gave the church/BYU their opening to fire him because they'd made a rule that BYU professors couldn't be eligible for a temple recommend unless they attended church 3/4ths of the time. And if they aren't eligible for a TR, they can be fired from BYU.
It backfired on the church. Instead of scaring him into submission, it gave him the freedom to leave. He went to Seminary, became a minister and his family thrived and is very close and very happy.
Actually, DW reminded me of one: my cousin. She taught English and had a crisis of faith concerning the MMM. She hasn't formally resigned, but has pretty much left. Her two sisters have formally resigned, though.
What was funny is that on my mission I found out my comp not only had her as a teacher, but that he'd had a bit of a crush on her.
What was funny is that on my mission I found out my comp not only had her as a teacher, but that he'd had a bit of a crush on her.
THe Church's pension program is governed by ERISA-a federal agency. Once a person is vested, they get their pension whether they quit, are fired, or leave the Church or are ex'd. In short, the government does not allow the Church or anyone else to jerk a pension regardless of the reason. The person has earned it and it can't be taken away. The Church knows this. If you work for the Church, don't be intimidated by the thought of losing your pension. If you're vested, you get the money. Employees are employees, whether they work for a religion or not and employers have to follow the law.
Note: There are some cases where a company ceases operation or goes bankrupt. ERISA then becomes involved to distribute what money their is to pensioners.My bet is that the Church would go to great lengths to avoid that unfavorable publicity!
Note: There are some cases where a company ceases operation or goes bankrupt. ERISA then becomes involved to distribute what money their is to pensioners.My bet is that the Church would go to great lengths to avoid that unfavorable publicity!
but I don't know more than that. Maybe she'll see this post eventually.
No one has mentioned Trevor Southey----brilliant professor and truly gifted artist. His lithographs have brought great joy to many.
US pension and health care practices seem to me to be a modern form of de facto slavery.
I hope I am not offending anyone with this, but the extent of moral and practical compromise an employee has to go through just to get basic benefits is ludicrous.
Speaking as a Kiwi observer. I was in the process of arranging a postdoc in the US when my youngest was diagnosed with a serious chronic illness. That killed that. It is just gobsmacking that serious welfare issues are dependent on employment status. And supporters of this system think that Jesus would somehow approve of this.
Then there is the conflation of "welfare state" with "socialism". Totally ironic since the first critics of the welfare state (which provided for the basic welfare of all) were socialists who complained that the welfare state simply nurtured and maintained workers on call for capitalist enterprise.
Sorry, possibly went too political.
I hope I am not offending anyone with this, but the extent of moral and practical compromise an employee has to go through just to get basic benefits is ludicrous.
Speaking as a Kiwi observer. I was in the process of arranging a postdoc in the US when my youngest was diagnosed with a serious chronic illness. That killed that. It is just gobsmacking that serious welfare issues are dependent on employment status. And supporters of this system think that Jesus would somehow approve of this.
Then there is the conflation of "welfare state" with "socialism". Totally ironic since the first critics of the welfare state (which provided for the basic welfare of all) were socialists who complained that the welfare state simply nurtured and maintained workers on call for capitalist enterprise.
Sorry, possibly went too political.