My dh and I have always had a great relationship in and out of the bedroom. Since leaving the church, we're pushing boundaries but I am so scared. I went to a strip club with dh and had a good time. But now my dh is expressing interest in going to sex clubs, joining a swinger club, and has told me that he's okay if I have casual sex outside our marriage.

I'm pretty open and all, and on some level it all sounds exciting, but WTF! I'm so worried about where this is all going. I complained that he's making me feel like I'm not enough anymore, but he said that it's because he wants to enhance our marriage.

He's a very doting husband and gives me everything. I'm not sure how to handle this. I'm afraid that if I put the brakes on he'll do some exploring on his own. We've been married for over 20 years and I know this is coming from a place of being held within the confines of TSCC our whole lives. We were both virgins on our wedding night and have never slept with anyone else (as far as I know!). Help!

Its a rebound effect. It goes away. What's happening is that he (and maybe a bit you) never had a chance to do your "teenage rebellion thing". He is trying to catch up. Hopefully he will realize that you can never go back. The rebellion thing works when you are a child, but doesn't really work as an adult. Too many consequences.

When we lived in Utah (27 years ago), one thing we noticed was there wasn't much middle ground. What we seen living in Utah was people were either TBM or a bit over the top in the other direction. Wife and I ran with a fast crowd for a while. We were offered more drugs and stuff in our 12 years of living in Utah, than the 35 years not living in Utah. Never had the desire to partake, but it was exciting to run with the fast crowd for a bit, seeing all the things that "the other half" did.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 11:29AM by magic823.

I really hope it is short-lived. I just want to have a "normal" adult life.

Wife and I have known a fair amount of "swingers" in our life. Not a single one of them are still married to their original spouse. Also none of them was what I considered attractive, physically or emotionally. I certainly wasn't attracted to them, but the crowd we ran with in Utah seemed to have a lot of them. Most of them told me the chase was more exciting than the catch anyway.

I recommend not to do it. There are other ways to spice up the bedroom without risking everything from your marriage to STDs.

I've known couples to have 'open' marriages and it never works!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 05:18PM by dogeatdog.

Don't join a sex club.
Don't join a swingers club.

If you do, there will come a time when your husband will hold it against you.

You can't help what your husband does. But do not join these clubs because you think it will make things better. It will only make things worse.

Trust me on this.

Lois

I'm a little concerned that he seems to be just bulldozing right over your concerns because HE wants to sow some wild oats.

"Hey maybe we should slow down a bit and think this through some more!"

"Hell no! Full speed ahead! I'm gettin' some strange before this is all over."

I recommend working on your communication and trying to unpack why he refuses to respect that you have concerns about this. It sounds like he's bullying you into doing something you're really not that comfortable with.

It bothers me, in fact, that newly minted exmos seem to think they have to join orgy clubs or something. You know, you can still have a wild sex life within the context of your faithful marriage. There's no reason to jump into Hedonism Land. I'd be very uncomfortable that he is interested in changing the terms of the marriage from monogamous to whatever and he really doesn't have your buy-in. That seems like thin ice territory to me, especially if you are afraid to speak up and voice your concerns. That tells me he's already shown you that he doesn't respect your concerns/issues/desires/needs.

If you aren't comfortable, the answer should be no. I imagine that if he were going to cheat or "go exploring", then he would regardless of whether you join a sex club or not.

Mormonism doesn't have a monopoly on temperance. Society long ago figured out that certain practices are risky and problematic. Leaving Mormonism doesn't mean anything goes. Most people practice sexual temperance, not just Mormons. The world of sex still has rampant deceit, risk, traps, disappointment, and long-term effects. If you're uncomfortable with it I would avoid it.

From personal experience, you are the one that has the final say. I'm sorry if I'm generalizing about all men. But they are like little kids and they will push as far as you let them.Give them candy, they will ask for more unless you say enough. Lol.

In my case, after leaving the church, I became a little more open about certain things I wasn't okay when I was a member, like allowing him to watch casual porn here and there. However, I became dissapointed to find out he started getting carried away and the thing is, he is still very TBM.

Just because you can do it without feeling guilt doesn't mean it's in your best interest to do so.

Don't be naive and think these things won't affect your relationship just because you don't think they will.

A strip club is totally different to having sex with other partners.

It would probably be safer to hire anonymous escorts to satisfy these curiosities. That ways there's less chance of feeling betrayed or insecure about emotional interests, in my opinion.

Think long and hard about how you'd feel knowing your husband had sex with another woman. If it bothers you then he should respect that.

There is an episode of the exmo podcast Infants on Thrones in which they interview a guy who after leaving the church convinced his wife to start swinging. Have your husband listen to that, I found it heartbreaking, I cant imagine willingly putting myself (much less my wife) through that. Just my 2 cents.

I'll look this up. Thanks!

Thank you all so much for your advice. Everything is still very fresh for us so I think we just need to come back down to earth and breathe. I do need to have a long talk with dh about what I'm comfortable with. I've been pretty lenient lately because the guilt has all disappeared, but I know in the long run these escapades would only damage our relationship

I just have to come to grips that I can't force my husband to be faithful. However, I'll make sure to let him know what the consequences will be if he's not!

It's about what BOTH of you feel comfortable with in your relationship. This is no longer a we're-free-from-Mormonism thing. He's making you uncomfortable and that's not right. I'm an ExMo and my spouse is a Never-Mo with no religious upbringing whatsoever. Swinging, sex clubs, strip joints, couples porn viewing, etc. aren't a part of our relationship at all. No desire for it. No need for it. But that's us.

I can understand your husband's behavior. I'm not married, but I acted similarly to him (not just with sex, but drugs and alcohol as well). I felt like I completely missed out on my childhood/teenage years and wanted to make up for what I missed out on.

I don't know the full details obviously, but it's likely that your husband missed out on all the promiscuous sex that young males usually get before marriage because he was a mormon, and now that he isn't mormon anymore he wishes he had done these things when he was younger. This is exactly how I felt anyway, and the way I acted out due to those feelings is quite similar to the way your husband is acting.

I really would recommend talking to him about it. Tell him your concerns, and also ask him if there's a deeper reason that he wants to do these things (even if there is he might not realize it).

It was such a devastating realization to me when I realized all the fun things in life I missed out on because I was a mormon.

I've also felt that way since. I know I missed out on a lot, and I turned down those opportunities as a teenager and young adult... but I can't bring those opportunities back.

The idea of casual sex with semi-random people sounds kinda fun. I've thought about it a bit, but I wouldn't want to mess up my marriage over it. I still enjoy sex with my wife and the porn I have watched doesn't make me think I'm missing out. Sure some of them are better looking and younger, but other than that it's not that much different.

I don't think the thoughts will ever go away, you're going to be attracted to people, and now that it's not an offense to God, you're really only answerable to yourself and your spouse. But if you're not comfortable, tell him. Either he'll respect your concerns or won't. I would not be ok with my wife sleeping with random people. Our marriage was still made on vows of monogamy and fidelity and regardless of what I think of the church, that's still my marriage expectation. I don't think your husband should try to change that without your consent. I hope things work out for you.

Just because the LDS church is based on lies, doesn't mean that you need to jump into a hedonistic search for pleasure that you aren't comfortable with.

My spouse is neverMo, and not religious. I remember while we were engaged he declined a job offer I thought would be really good for us. He told me that the final recruiting meeting was supposed to be a group visit to a female mud wrestling event and a strip bar, and that he just couldn't see himself working with people like that because it wasn't classy or professional.

We don't recognize any religious "rules" but we wouldn't take up swinging, having affairs, or drugs beyond alcohol in moderation. If you are going to do that, please protect yourself. Learn to use condoms extremely well, double protect with another form of birth control, and try to stick with partners who aren't likely to be carrying STDs. It would just be stupid to complicate your lives with a baby of questionable parentage or HIV.

I personally, would draw my lines and clearly say what you do and don't feel comfortable with. You're not being too Molly Mormon, you are being reasonable if you say that you don't want an open marriage. Most normal people don't go for that! Open marriages are actually not that common in most societies, and that choice can have unintended effects. I dated a guy in my late teens whose dad was often out with strippers, escorts, and married women and his mom had her own set of lovers. Their son had a hard time believing that a loving, committed relationship was possible long-term. He slept around A LOT. And was a bit sad because he wasn't really connecting with these girls on an emotional or intellectual level, just getting laid. He was pretty scarred and never wanted to marry. You don't mention kids, but if you have them, you are setting standards for them too. How would you both feel if they learned about this stuff? Usually, if you'd be ashamed for people you care about to know you are doing something, you should consider not doing it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 12:54PM by vh65.

People always wonder what they "missed out on ". Honestly...some things are worth missing out on. These things WILL affect your relationship. If you are not comfortable with it DON'T DO IT. If he goes behind your back. He will have to deal with that when the time comes. If you suspect he might.... protection, protection, protection. You don't want to deal with Cheating spouse and an std. Maybe counseling is in order here. Or at the very least a long chat about what is acceptable to explore and where you both draw the line.

The one thing that's extremely important when dealing with these issues is COMMUNICATION!!! You're husband needs to know your concerns. Maybe this is a deal breaker for you. Perhaps you're ok with your husband watching porn occasionally, or perhaps going to a strip club together. It sounds like you've got a very good husband who cares about you. You need to decide what you're comfortable with. I imagine his relationship with you is a high priority and that he won't want to jeopardize his relationship with you just to try out a little fun outside of the marriage.

If you guys decide to try the sex club/swingers thing, what will the rules be? Is one person allowed to go swinging while the other remains at home? Or is this something that has to be done together? Is kissing other people ok, or is that reserved solely for you and your husband? Same with sexual intercourse. Is oral ok outside of the marriage but intercourse is not? If you guys are allowed relationships outside of the marriage, how aware does the other partner need to be? Are outside relationships ok as long as you agree to always practice safe sex? Or will you inform the other person who you will be with and at what time? Do you meet with your spouse's intended partner and approve of them before anything sexual happens?

When you're mormon there are huge prohibitions on so many things. When you get out you want to see what you're missing. And there's a tendency to go too far the other direction. If you decide to try alcohol you don't need to party and pass out every weekend. Try different things and see what you like. For me I enjoy a glass or two of wine in the evenings, and that's about it.

If you've recently left the cult take things very, very slowly. You don't have to try out every sin all at once. The mormon church has lots of strong opinions about lots of things. And just because the church is not true doesn't mean they aren't right about some of those things. Alcohol can cause all sorts of nasty things if it's abused. Sex outside of marriage often leads to divorce.

Like I said, communication is key! Tell your husband what your worries are, and everything behind those worries. And be willing to listen to what he has to say. Discuss things from all points of view, then together decide what will work best for your marriage. And also be open to the possibility that you and your husband's views can change over time. Perhaps your husband is thinking out loud, and once you start working through all the details he'll realize that swinging and sex clubs aren't practical. And don't believe that what you decide now is setting the future of your marriage in stone. Perhaps this all doesn't work for you now. But tell your husband maybe you can visit this topic again in the future and see if your feelings have changed. Talk, talk, talk!!!

I have seen many exmo marriages break up because either the husband or wife wanted to sow their wild oats. I think this is a shame and a waste.

I've known very few open relationships that survive. Usually the ones that work are older couples who have very firm boundaries in place. There is also always an element of jealousy, no matter what. It's a natural human emotion.

If both of you aren't 100% on this, it's going to blow up in your faces.

From a never-TBM point of view it is interesting to see how many ex-TBMs, and especially BICs seem to indeed have such a rebound effect upon leaving TSCC. In that way the TSCC standard line: "You left so that you could sin." is partially correct at least for part of the exmos: it's not the reason but a consequence. Having lived all of one's life in a highly restrictive social environment where the innate development of personal boundaries has been stunted often seems to result in a period of time where it feels there is no compass.. because there is no compass. But it's not because "heavens have withdrawn", but rather because the artificially imposed rules have been invalidated, and the innate sense of the limits and boundaries haven't had a chance to establish themselves yet. Sadly, these boundaries are normally established in late teens, early 20's under normal circumstances, so it's often a different situation when people later in their life are thrown in the middle of it while they're married, have children, etc.

I think this is one of the biggest disservices TSCC does to people. But it is also one of their most significant control mechanisms, which is probably not a co-incidence. With such system TSCC manages to make the "outside world" to look scary to TBMs, and make them believe it is "the holy spirit" that protects TBMs from it when it's in fact TSCC's rules that make normal life to look scary.

Take that a step further. People are not just reeling from the culture shock of suddenly being freed from all the arbitrary constraints, but they've been told their entire lives (BICs anyway) that the rest of the nonmo world is this hedonistic crazy life. They think this is what we all do, the strip clubs and partner swapping. Mormons are brainwashed to believe that people who aren't moron have no moral compass, have no values, no standards, no manners and that our lives are just like Studio 54, all disco lights and booze and coke and hookers.

When people leave the church and start wondering what they are missing, I think they are disappointed to learn that 80% of us never really indulge in the Studio 54 hookers-and-blow lifestyle. Some people party pretty hard in college, but most people temper that once they start working all the time.

THAT is what I think is one of the biggest disservices the church does to people. It gives them a completely unrealistic idea about what life outside the church is like. I've seen people on this board say they were shocked to realize that nevermo moms love their babies. She thought only mormon mommies loved their babies. Isn't that insane?

Perhaps that is why, then, when some TBM/BICs leave TSCC, they feel they need to give the purpoted nonmo lifestyle a go. "So this is how it is to be a nonmo!" ;) Most sooner or later realize, however, that that is not how most nevermo/nonmo people live.

The social environment people find themselves immersed in can make people believe in crazy things. I've heard people making similar comments (seriously) about the Russians during, or soon after the Cold War (also referenced in Sting's song "Russians love their children too").

Exactly.

"I'm out! So where are my hookers and blow?"

Wait, what? Nobody has hookers and blow. What movie gave you that idea?

Hedonism can have some pretty serious consequences. From experience, I KNOW this for a fact.

I'm all for having fun and testing boundaries, but I aso have to live with some of the really shitty choices and memories I made.

Some people don't make it out alive or with their physical/mental faculties intact. Remember people, sex can still kill or maim you, and not in a fun way.

Hedonistic living may seem glamorous from the sidelines, but it will beat you down fast, especially if you don't have the street smarts to survive it.

Which is why so few people actually live that way, contrary to TBM belief.

Has DH every heard of VD? He has bad ideas.

Classic overcompensation. I would not do it. MY parents and my wife's parents were swingers (not with each other) and it had terrible effects on their marriages AND their kids.

Call me old fashioned but fidelity and trust are not exclusive to Mormonism or religion in general. I am all about trying new things but there are lines that shouldn't be crossed. It is up to each couple to define what those lines are.

It is possible to have an open marriage that can remain healthy. But, if either one of you have dealt with low self-esteem or jealousy, an open marriage is a terrible idea.

Personally, I am going to leave the sexual deviancy to Joseph, Brigham, and all the rest.