So I am about a three-year non-believer. Would probably call myself agnostic, but if I had to make bets in Vegas, I'd probably bet on atheism. Any way, I have a TBM spouse. Very TBM in belief, but pretty normal and laid back about daily life. We have three children that are 9,5,and3. It's been getting more difficult to now that my oldest is getting to the asking and observing phase,and even the second oldest. I'm not the best church attender and I let them know about certain of my beliefs, mostly about LGBTQ issues and fear-based teachings they get. But I have been very circumspect in what I say and do, partly because I know I have to be a bit subversive and I don't want to cause fights. But what I'm really struggling with is that I'm a little ambivalent in what it is that I want for my children.

I know that I avoided a lot of bad things as a teenager and young adult because I went to church and had TBM parents. I was always strong-willed and not intimidated by authority and so I didn't have a lot of the experiences I have read on this board. I NEVER went to see the bishop to confess anything, although there was plenty to confess and would never had dreamed of doing so. I also know some very, very good TBM men and women. And by and large still believe that all things being equal a good TBM man would make a better husband for any one of my girls than the average joe. (Please don't excoriate me for saying that out loud - yes, I'm bothered that I think that but I just do from my experienc). I feel like the TBM men I know take very seriously their commitments to family and work ethic and behave in a way that I would want someone to behave with my girls. To be honest, I guess I believe that a TBM is less likely to cheat or lie or develop a drug and alcohol problem. That has been my experience and that is all that I can go on. Kinda like the FBI and CIA love to hire Mormons, I feel like I'm in that same camp.

Trying not to ramble here. I just don't know what I want or what to teach my kids, other than I question some of the main teachings of the church. But church, as taught in church, is either an all or nothing principle. If I had to choose for them, would it be all or would it be nothing right now? Has anyone else felt this conflict in themselves for their children? And if so, what have you done?

Mormon men do not make better husbands. Your daughters need to be respected as equal partners in every way.

I live in the real world now, not the Morridor, and I can tell you that I work with and know thousands of men who are caring wonderful family men, who put their family first--not the church, but their families.

I have been to my share of weddings, funerals, parties and whatever and I have seen more unconditional love and support among the "gentiles" than I ever saw in the Mormon families in Utah by and large. Mormons do not have a lock on love--far from it.

And not one of these men I know asks their wife to put a veil over her face, bow her head and say yes to them.

Mormonism is not good for your family. Teach your kids critical thinking and unconditional love, and then encourage them to explore the world from an unbiased viewpoint. And encourage both your daughters and your sons to be anything they want to be in life.

Do you live in Utah? It wasn't until I left Utah that I was able to truly find good, moral people that weren't mormon. I met Christians, Jews, and atheists who were wonderful people. Most of the fathers I met were more involved and invested in their children because they had them a little later in life, had fewer children, had more money, and could take time off of work to go to kids activities.

My advice to you is to not plan your children's lives for them. Teach them values and to think critically and to not blindly obey. Plan on sending them to a non-LDS university where they can develop their critical thinking skills as well. Churches don't own the market on values and morals. Teach them to be good people and then they will try to find a spouse that is a good person also.

Edited to add: I would suggest making a list of what you do believe in (ie: unconditional love, honesty, true service, etc.) and use that to guide you in teaching your children. Much better than the arbitrary list of do's and don'ts in the church!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 08:44PM by sincere9.

Have you just not been out long enough? My nonmo boyfriend just brought up to me last night (after a big family drama) that mormonism probably made me the good person I am. I pointed out to him that my sisters were also raised mormon, that I was BORN this way.

There is nothing about mormonism that makes one person better than another. Read here long enough and you'll hear of the not so good mormon men. Hell, my neighbors tell me about their not so good mormon husbands. One neighbor was going to leave her bishop husband because they had no relationship left WHILE he was bishop. My ex is gay. Think about that one for a while. Now I'm with the guy I wanted to marry at age 20 (I'm 56). IF ONLY I had chosen to marry HIM at age 20. I sure could have saved myself a hell of a lot of heartache.

My very, very TBM daughter can't stand RMs. I was surprised to find out that she was dating a nonmo seriously last summer when she was working out of state as she is JUST FED UP with mormon guys.

Mormons are no better (if not worse because of their self-righteous attitude) than everyone else. Mormons were so nice to my family (pioneer heritage) that 4 of 6 siblings are no longer mormon (1 is disabled and still active) and my TBM daughter is the ONLY mormon grandchild or great grandchild.

I took my kids out of mormonism so they wouldn't be treated like I was. The only time I was treated well in mormonism was when I was with my husband who was cheating on me with men as he knew how to play the mormon social games. His father was a bishop for 9 years who was also stalking young women looking for his future wives.

I'm going to add that I feel like I lucked out marrying my ex even if he is gay compared to what I see other women stuck with. He's a good man and one of my best friends.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 08:49PM by cl2.

Your children will forgive you if you believe what you teach is true. If you lie to them knowingly, such that the next decades of their lives will be spent in the service of the Mormon church, they will find it very hard to forgive you if one day they discover the falsity of the church, and that you knew it to be false.
Why not teach them good principles of living but also be honest with them about the falsehood of the LDS church?
I lost a decade of my adult life sorting out the rubbish put upon me by that church. Don't wish that on your children. Build them up with true seeing eyes and clear minds and clear consciences.

I think it is great that you are questioning how you want to raise your children. Also, that your oldest is observant and questioning.

As a nana (grandma), my suggestion for you is to engage in lots of activities with your children, such as sports, hiking, reading, etc., just being with them and answering their questions about life as they come up or you bring questions up to them. If you don't know something, tell them you do not know but say to them, "Let's find the answer together on the Internet". Encourage their curiosity, and be honest and forthright about personal questions they might ask you. Aim to have lots of fun at whatever is on the docket, and tell them often how much you love them and are so very happy that you are their dad.

As far as your beliefs go, I would encourage you to do more reading and searching. You can tell your children and spouse that is what you are doing and that you have unanswered questions that you are working on. That right there is a teaching tool for your children to see. Let them see you read, let them see you using the Internet to get answers.

After I resigned from the church I was also retired, so I had more time than you most likely have right now to search and read. But, if you do some searching now and then, you will be surprised how much you can get done. The fact that you are searching and working on this, gives you self-respect and boosts your ego.

Keep us posted. Best of luck to you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/27/2014 09:07PM by presleynfactsrock.

I know you will get great advice from ex-mormons here, but with regard to:

"Kinda like the FBI and CIA love to hire Mormons, I feel like I'm in that same camp."

I would add that I strongly suspect that the reason the FBI and CIA love to hire Mormons is because Mormons will follow orders without questioning and/or they are practiced and believable liars. Those may be excellent qualities in an agent, but they are terrible qualities for a family member or for any kind of personal relationship. Just something to think about. Wishing you well.

I was going to post the same. Mormons are proven followers and trained to keep secrets. Honestly, I'm NOT sure it's still true that the FBI and CIA actively recruit LDS anymore like they did in the 70's. The guys I know that got recruited out of BYU have left the church.

Your values are you, the religion is behavior over the top of it

Take away the religion and you will still be you

Most people have good values to loosely use the word good.

If you think that sending your kids to church will make them better people, you're wrong.

Being present, loving, and a good teacher is what makes a good parent.

Nothing I ever learned at church made me a better person. I also didn't learn much from my parents because they gave their ALL to the church.

I didn't have any kids until I was 30. By then i'd been on my own for quite awhile. I can promise you the mormon men were a lousy bunch to pick from. Arrogance was their main trait. They had no problem with lying. In fact, most of them were pros at it.

My own daughter didn't marry until she was 30. She was raised mormon, but never dated any. She thought the same thing I did about them. She married herself a nice inactive Catholic boy. I couldn't ask for a better sil.

IMO, your reasoning is a bit off.

Perhaps you haven't met a lot of nonmormon fathers? Like anything, there are good and bad fathers, be they Mormon or not. But a nonmormon father has a much better chance of putting his family FIRST, than a Mormon father.

I live in an area where there isn't a lot of Mormons, but there are a lot of good fathers. And they have more time
for their kids.

The best thing you can do is encourage your childrens' independant thinking. Don't you want your children to know the truth? Don't you want your daughters to grow up to be self assured women, that won't put up with pompous religious men telling them how they must think? To be in interviews behind closed doors with a grown man asking them sexual questions (no other church does that by the way)

How about encouraging them (and any sons that you have) to think for themselves. Encourage education and creativity, not repression and rigidity.

You are making judgments based on what you SEE. What you see is superficial and Mormons are trained to put on a good face.

You read here the truth behind the facades.

Anais Nin famously said "We do not see things as they are but as we are."

What makes a person a good husband and father is the ability and willingness to spend time and money on developing the potential of each person in the family, including himself.

You examine that sentence and you will see clearly that on every point the Mormon church falls short. They will not send a young man on a mission to maximize his potential, but to break him (Church-broke they call it) so that they can count on his cashflow for the rest of his life.

The church takes away the time a man could spend with his wife and children. It takes away the money they would have for education, vacations and dates.

And last, but certainly not least, they fill them with guilt and feelings of never being good enough, so that even when anxiously engaged in a good cause, they can never have peace.

Do you really want your children to be worrying at age three that they might be separated from Heavenly Father if they don't "do" the right things?

Do you really want your little boys and girls to be interviewed alone in a room with an adult male who will be asking about their sexuality without your permission or presence?

Do you want them to be afraid to leave if they have doubts, afraid to break your heart, afraid to be responsible for splitting the family up in the CK?

You yourself are an example of the erosion of confidence a person can suffer under Mormonism-- made to believe other men are getting answers to prayers, feeling the Holy Spirit, having "witnesses" etc, AND THEY AREN't. You are even lead to believe that other men are firm believers with no doubts when the truth is they are hiding their doubts just like you.

The truth is that for thousands of years good mothers and good fathers have raised good, moral children by talking to them, listening, spending time, protecting them from whatever dangers existed and explaining tothem why protection is needed. There are no values that an institution can teach better than a parent.

That's why the LDS have Family Home Evening. They want YOU to use YOUR parental influence to MAKE your children pay them FOR LIFE to insure they will be with you in heaven. (which they never owned to give in the first place.)

If you want a good gang of kids for your children to have some good clean fun with some good kids, take them to your local protestant or catholic church. They will talk about values and morals without scaring them and without trying to take their souls.


Anagrammy

My former so-called TBM husband was a liar, a cheat and a pedophile but he had the ability to convince others he was a really good person.

My current husband is a nevermo and simply one of the most honest, caring and nurting person I've ever met who encourages me to be the best I can be.

You don't have to have religion to be a good person.

Some thoughts from a nevermo's perspective -

1. Listen to Anagrammy. She is a wise, wise woman.

2. I'm Protestant and I've never done drugs or smoked. I didn't have sex or drink in HS because I thought they were stupid choices and my father would have kicked my ass into next week if I had. And he was better than the KGB at ferreting out info. Don't assume that Mormonism is the only way one can grow up with morals and stay out of trouble.

3. It's very presumptuous to say a Mormon guy would make a better husband than "the average Joe". My husband was raised Presbyterian but now is in the agnostic/don't give a **** camp. He's faithful, a good husband and a great father who spends lots of time with our daughter. How many Mormon fathers have the time to devote to their family? They spend hours each week doing useless (in my opinion) busy work in church "callings"

"And by and large still believe that all things being equal a good TBM man would make a better husband for any one of my girls than the average joe."

I feel very sad and sorry for your daughters... and future grandchildren.

It's interesting that this came up today. I was just earlier today thinking, that for a small child, before TSCC demands start, TSCC probably provides a reasonably happy environment for most kids. The problem is that while they're happily visiting primary, they're being programmed. This horrifies me as my TBM wife takes kids to the church every Sunday. The kids already indicate that it is me who has erred by not being active in the church, and an attempt to defend my position results in a fight with my TBM wife.

ALL the positivity falls down due to what TSCC does to the family if one of the parents is a nomo, and particularly if he/she is an exmo. Then the tension between the parents erases any and all traces of benefits the 'happy' church environment might have provided. And it doesn't end there. Arguments that ensue from the philosophical disparity and the intolerance that has been hammered into TBMs' heads are often overheard by the children. The exmo parent may be referred to as "evil" and/or "apostate" within children's hearing range by the TBM. And in many cases any closeness and warmth between the parents has been discontinued as a punishment to the "evil apostate". What kind of a model does that give to the children of a relationship? A TRULY TERRIBLE ONE!

So, I can't concur that a TBM husband would make a good husband, because if it should happen that the daughter is not on board initially or later with the church, trouble will follow, and I would not wish such heartache on anyone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2014 12:01AM by Facing Tao.

What if your daughters don't want to get married to any man? As in think marriage isn't for them or one or more realize they're a lesbian?

TSCC doesn't prepare parents or children for those scenarios in a reasonable, healthy manner.

You're better off teaching your daughters to be independent, self-suffcient, and emotionally and mentally healthy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2014 12:05AM by Itzpapalotl.

Instead it teaches that if a teenager finds themselves migrating to homosexual direction, they're in stan's grip and must fight it. In the areas where the surrounding society's Morg pressure is great (Morridor), such teens come to a sad, final solution as they feel there's nowhere to go. :(

I would suggest less worrying about who your daughters are going to marry and more worrying about teaching them to stand on their own two feet and make their own way in the world. Teach them to make good choices. Then they can find their own person to marry and will make a good choice in a husband.

I think you've just had good parents. It didn't have much to do with Mormonism. The odds are in your favor if your parents are highly educated and financially stable. If they weren't, you just beat the odds. It wasn't because of Mormonism.

In my personal experience, top local LDS leaders have been adulterers, child molesters, tax cheats, criminals, drug users, and child abusers. Yep, bishops, RS presidents, EQ presidents, etc. Mormons believe that all church callings are divinely inspired. So, I would say the Mormon God is not good at choosing who should take your kids on camping trips and who should ask your kids sexually invasive questions behind closed doors.

Some of the most moral, loving, carrying people I know weren't raised in any kind of a religious environment. Cultures share many of these same values--love, justice, charity, service, etc.--both Christian and non-Christian, Eastern and Western, aboriginal or post-modern. They just have different stories, fables, etc. they teach them through. Mormonism doesn't have a monopoly on being a good person. In fact, Mormonism can lead people to be less charitable, less kind, and less accepting.

I think you might have a false perception of what is the benefit to being a Mormon vs. a non-Mormon. For instances, your statement, "Kinda like the FBI and CIA love to hire Mormons," is actually a myth. Government agencies recruit all over the United States and at many different universities. Mormons, BYU students, and returned missionaries don't get special treatment. They don't have a disproportionate representation in those agencies. Being a Mormon doesn't make anyone a better spy, public servant, or law enforcers.

Mormonism won't make your kids be any better of a person than your love and nurturing will allow them to be.

I WAS the smart, questioning daughter of a good dad who, I think, probably was a lot like you. We never talked much about it, but my dad used to say one should take church statements "with a grain of salt." He admitted, when I was about to graduate from BYU, that it almost certainly wasn't "the one true church" but felt that participating, for him, was a way to think about values and play a helpful role in the community. My mom had her own "issues" (she wasn't a big-time feminist, but she had a part-time job which made her feel like she didn't fit in well in relief society). My mom's family, however, was seriously TBM and we lived in a very LDS part of Utah. For my parents, given the time, place, and the relatives, maybe choosing to stay in and raise their kids LDS was a good choice. All 3 kids were extremely good - in high school they left us home alone pretty regularly for whole weekends while they cared for elderly parents out of town, and never did we drink, smoke weed, hold unauthorized parties, have sex... I don't think that really had as much to do with religion, as it did our love for our parents, and how much we wanted to please them and keep their trust. When I hit my 20s, I wanted to find a "grain of salt" semi-Mormon guy like my dad, but I ended up leaving Utah and living all over the US as well as in Asia. I found great guys everywhere I went, and I married one. I think there are good and bad apples in every cultural group, and Mormons may actually have a few more bad ones, just because abusive behavior and sexual infidelity tend to be behaviors that are passed down, and well, we all know what the early church looked like. But I digress...

I feel very passionately that you need to really consider what it means to be a girl, and then a woman, who is fully indoctrinated in the LDS church. Listen in Sunday School, General Conference, any meetings you attend. Listen for the little messages that clearly indicate women aren't as good as men. "Women don't need to develop their talents, unless they are related to homemaking or church functions." "College is important so women can teach their children well, or find a job in an emergency, but having a career isn't something girls really need to think about or plan for." Silly twelve-year-old boys are worthy to be given magical powers denied pious, spiritual women 5 times their age, who aren't even good enough to pass out the sacrament.

Your post actually could be viewed as reflecting this mindset - you are emphasizing that the LDS church might help your girls find good husbands. It might also brainwash a lot of dreams right out of them and shortchange their opportunities, and you don't seem to haven't considered that.

Even though I married a NeverMo, we did take our daughters to church for about 4-5 years. The day my eldest had her first interview with the bishop of our new ward as a young woman (age 12) was our last. She simply refused to return to an environment where she was told to pray, five times a day, to marry an RM in the temple, and to make that her one main goal for the next ten years. And that IS the main message of the YW/YA RS program. I know several women who, at 22, were very confused because they didn't expect any other challenges, just happily ever after the temple wedding. And they didn't have enough money for their families and lacked the kinds of skills and experience that would help them to earn good salaries for reasonable hours. I see this as a huge problem in even my own family. Early marriage, quickly followed by lots of kids, creates a host of financial challenges that can be impossible to get ahead of. Completing college becomes impossible for one generation, then the next. My cousins who left their abusive TBM husbands really struggled. The cousin who never married missed out on achieving her full career potential because she never went to college - just looked for Mr. Right. The LDS pattern eventually worked out ok for my siblings and their spouses, who at least finished college, but a lot of my relatives have and will continue to struggle financially their whole lives because women are taught to marry young and have babies, rather than get a degree or get some skills, and have kids when you are financially secure enough to provide well for them. I'm not knocking stay-at-home moms - I have been one, by choice, at several periods in my life. But I am so glad that I have been able to continue developing through education and experiences and to achieve goals outside church and home. And my earnings have helped provide opportunities and inspiration for my daughters.

My elder daughter had goals of her own. She used the hours that would have been wasted learning half-truths in seminary and church to become an accomplished athlete and scholar. She expects finish her degree at a top-25 college in 3 years, with those AP credits. She ran from bad boys and parties all through high school - she always said the athesists were the BEST kids, and the Christians the WORST in high school, probably because they were so sure they could be forgiven for all that sex and underage drinking. But she told me that she was and remains "a good kid" because she doesn't want to lose her parents' love and respect. Her shorts are a little short, but other than that, she turned out just fine without LDS influence. Love your girls, and I think they could too.

It seems to me, though, that like my dad, you are stuck with having them at least partly in the LDS world. So I have some advice for you, things that really helped me.

1) Tell your kids how smart they are. Ask about their dreams for life. Listen, encourage them, and help them start working towards that even now. Sign them up for dinosaur digging summer camp, programming classes, or baseball or dance, whatever they are into. Help them learn to set and achieve goals. I think the scouting and YW program do provide a good start on this, so build on it. Go beyond merit badges and help them really get good at something they care about.

2) Let the girls know that it's not only ok for them to want to be moms AND something else, it's a good thing. Encourage them to do well in school and pick their classes wisely. When the time comes, evaluate just how helpful seminary is. Maybe online/homestudy seminary would satisfy your spouse and work better? Let the kids themselves decided, and really make it seem like they have a choice. My sister dropped out for a term and then went back. I stopped after a year so I could take college prep classes.

3) Be open to friendships with nonMormons. My parents were friendly to ALL the new neighbors, no matter their religion, and we were welcome to hang out with their kids. Not having that Mormon superiority complex allowed me to see that there are good people everywhere, and that what makes you a good person is how you treat others, not what church you attend.

4) Expose your kids, girls especially, to lots of different role models. The ladies chosen to run YW are often wonderful, but they are almost always young SAHM. Let your kids meet parents of both genders who adopt less gender-specific family roles: a stay-at-home dad, moms who work full or part-time while raising their kids, dads who do all the cooking and moms who handle home and car repair. Introduce them to people with all kinds of careers so they can learn about them. My mom had me babysit for a lot of women she met volunteering in the school library. Most combined interesting careers that weren't too demanding with parenting, and they helped me see some of the possibilities. By exposing me to the full range of options, from staying at home full-time forever to completely career driven, with no judgement, my parents helped me see that ALL of these options are ok, and that I could even pick one, do it for a while, then switch to something different if my family situation changed.

I don't have any boys, so I can't advise you about that, but I think it is extremely important that you treat your girls as if they are capable of anything. The biggest predictor of girls' success in school is having an involved father. What you say and do IS going to make a big difference. I know it did for me.

My dad died a couple of years ago, after I stopped attending the church but before I discovered enough of the history to know about the lies. I'm really grateful that he helped me to see what my choices were, and to live in a way that made me happy. I understand and respect his decision not to share his knowledge about the true history more strongly, though I do have concerns beyond a wistfulness longing for my siblings to know that he, at least, agreed with assessment of Mormonism. My brother is serving as a branch president, and my sister remains deeply LDS, with a Mormon husband who is also a really good guy. They seem quite happy, but I worry about their kids, who are not hearing anything about "grains of salt." At least they are all being raised with the expectation that they will get valuable vocational training or complete college, if not graduate school.

Edit: Doesn't it concern you that week after week, your daughters will be taught to choose a faithful man, you know, one NOT LIKE YOU? That devotion to the religion is supposed to influence their choice even more than finding a person who fits their personality and interests? Be sure you "innoculate" the girls before they start designing wedding dresses and sewing bags for their temple clothes at age 12....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/28/2014 04:06PM by vh65.

Aw, thanks Anagrammy. That means a lot coming from a true wise woman like you.

I hope the OP isn't offended - I am passionate because have been thinking a lot lately about what I can do to help my nieces, who are very bright and BYU/mission bound. And my Mormon relatives, whose financial struggles are considerable and might have been less if they hadn't spent so much time and money on Mormonism. At least my TBM mom jumps in with "Don't marry until you are 25" on a regular basis...

The most moral people that I've met, are those who were raised entirely without religion.

Being good to earn your eternal reward is morally WEAK, if moral AT ALL.

Haven't read through all your responses, but here's my $0.02 really quick:

I was in the position you're in just about 4 months ago. I knew that I didn't "believe" in the church they way one is supposed to believe, and yet, my TBM requested that the children be raised in the church. This was before my testimony was completely and utterly shattered by new truths I learned last January.

The thing I found was this: the church is not a church of "pick and choose." It's an all or nothing church. My kids would go to church, tell me what they were learning, and then I would have to tell them "OK...but I don't believe that and neither should you." This especially started happening more and more once I had 2 teenagers and they were being taught things like to be gay is a sin (see Strength of Youth booklet). It became more and more difficult for me to "support" what they were being taught in church, and I found myself having to deprogram what they were being told for 3 hours each Sunday instead. :(

It may be time for you to explore the truth claims of the church if that's something you feel you're ready for. My only regret is that I didn't get myself and my kids out YEARS ago. Instead I tried to put all the issues on my mental shelves constantly and carry forth "in faith." The longer you're in, the more damage it does, especially when it came to my kids.