Sometimes it is better to proceed as if there were no god, other times it is essential.

Cultures that are god-blocked suck the life out of their cities. Even when god is a man, as in North Korea. Check out the good times in Colorado City or the Waco Compound. The Jim Jones colony in South America. Kirtland and Nauvoo went down hard.

The nearest city to me is Sacramento. It has a gritty political zeitgeist to it. It is secular and diverse. Two rivers come together in the midst of it. The city endures.

percent of Atheists in general population .... 15

Percent of Atheists in prison population ............... 1

You do the math.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 12:04AM by Dave the Atheist.

Hmmmmmmmmmm not really a fan of using prison populations as an example like this...most prisoners have had much harder lives than everybody else from the get-go, too. Kind of classist if you ask me. Hopelessness breeds clinging to religion (or to anything, something). There are no atheists in foxholes...or on death row.

Google 'atheists in foxholes', there are PLENTY of articles debunking that claim. Men on the front line are MORE likely to lose their belief in god, witnessing the senseless horrors of war that they see close up.

Atheism is what happens when you grow up. Unfortunately most people never do.

NoMoNoHow Wrote:
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> Atheism is what happens when you grow up.
> Unfortunately most people never do.

Neither atheism nor arrogance are a rite of passage into adulthood. I find a fair number of theists among Nobel prize recipients, and few still live at home with their parents or suffer from acne.

A small portion of atheists become arrogant once they no longer place any reverence in answering the massive questions that still remain unanswered regarding the origin of matter and the animation thereof. Once you dismiss the significance of seeking where the universe and all living things may have come from, arrogance is much easier.

I don't know any atheists who aren't interested in abiogenesis and learning more about the beginnings of the universe. I/They/We just don't think "I don't know" implies "god did it."

It may not be our chief focus of our energies, because we're not all biologists / cosmologists / etc.

Really?

I thought emotional maturity was what was supposed to happen.

Unfortunately that's a lot rarer than atheism.

+1 I think atheism is when you look inside yourself for you own strength. You value fact over fiction realizing fiction's place is entertainment and dreaming and obtaining tithes, but fact is fuel for true enlightenment.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 12:14PM by blueorchid.

All the patting oneself on the back for NOT believing in something is what always confuses me. It's not my business what others believe and I don't think less or more of them based on what they do or don't think about the supernatural. Unless you're trying to shove religion or atheism down someone else's throat, I don't see why such a personal thing is even relevant.

Plenty of atheists are assholes who certainly don't "look inside themselves for strength." They just don't believe in a deity. It's amoral.

Plenty of Christians/ religious people are assholes and don't show real love for others, just religion. Believing in God doesn't mean you're good, bad, stupid, or smart. It just means you believe in God.

The thing is, this post is titled Why Atheism? There fore I was answering the question as to how I feel about it, especially after all these years. If am not trying to convert you. I am not trying to denigrate your views in life. I live and love a lot of theists and some I am in awe of. But I do find atheism to be a purer way of seeking truth, unencumbered from trying to match it to an expectation.

This is explaining my strong views, not patting myself on the back for being right because I never assume I am right. I just do the best I can with what ever evidence and experience life has handed me.

I am speaking of an idealized way of being. There is no need to point out that someone who is an atheist can also be an asshole. I haven't met any, but again, I always leave the possibility that they will show up.

....you've never met an atheist who is not a good person? Really?

Sounds like the Mormons who say everyone who is LDS is awesome. Don't see what makes it different.

I said I haven't met an atheist who is an asshole. Very big difference from being a good person. Don't twist my words for your own benefit.

It so happens all the atheist I happen to know are somewhere on the decent to good scale.

Please note: I am not speaking for all atheists. I try very hard not to generalize. Please do not generalize for me.

"They just don't believe in a deity. It's amoral."

Wait, are you saying that atheism is amoral? I think you need to do a bit more research into where morals come from... Hint, it's not religion or deity.

I was responding to the claim that many of them convert in prison. I'm saying that being a prisoner doesn't somehow indicate that one is 'bad' and therefore more likely to not be an atheist. That's a narrow-minded, classist way of thinking.

I just want to say that IMHO atheism (all free thought in fact) is not something you study or consider. IMHO it's a realization.

Guilty pleasure: I love creepy old cathedrals and mosques

I would love to hear Black Sabbath perform in a Gothic cathedral. With an organ and tube amps. The stony ambiance would certainly favor the metal chords. Maybe with some Gregorian Chanters for backup. Candle light only. Deep purple drapes. A cheery fire crackling in a large river rock hearth. Ozzie would sing the first four albums with his inimitable wail. Wine would accompany Asian substances, and my mind would wander, as John Lennon said, where it will go.

Dude, I am feeling some serious bromance feelings

S**t I just got me some warm and fuzzie bro tingles. I think finally found religion.

There is an openness that I've found in atheism to new ideas and ideologies, unfettered by dogma or unfounded guilt based on arbitrary rules laid down several millennium in the past.

Humanity's cultures are vast and varied, and our philosophies outnumber people extant today. There are wisdoms in many places - even in religion - and great evils - even in religion.

But you know what? I kind of love that we don't all agree. I have a fondness for folks still wrapped up in superstition, whether it be gods and monsters, or ghosts and aliens. I love that I can have lively debates with friends and take the piss out of enemies without fear of divine retribution.

And I love studying scripture, history and archaeology, unbound by apologetic obligation to an authoritarian religion.

I get to be angry. I get to own all of my feelings without carrying the burden of guilt for natural human emotions.

I can study sex openly and discuss porn with friends. I can be an advocate for sex workers while still considering myself a feminist. I may piss off some of the less radical progressive thinkers, but I get to male up my own mind without towing a party line.

I can view humanity for the apes they are, awkwardly stuck in an evolutionary middle ground where few of its members are sexually, intellectually, culturally or even physiologically consistent.

And I get to make fun of Jesus with impunity.

Being an atheist is the tits, guys. It's great.

P.S. I'm near Folsom, California, dude. I'm spitting distance from the Sacramento Temple.

You have a silver tongue bro

I can do all those exact same things also. And I'm not an atheist.

How nice for you.

My point stands. Without a belief in a deity or powerful cosmic intelligence or alien seeders or whatever kind of god a person may believe in, one isn't bound to the rules laid down for its devotees.

You're freed from dogmatic obligation.

You gave no point of reference as to how you identified your belief: are you a deist, a theist, a pantheist, a servant of Cthulu, a satanist, or something good else entirely? I have no idea where your coming from, so your comment isn't helpful in the least.

Atheism is fine. I respect my atheist friends and I don't judge their beliefs. If one honestly doesn't have reason to believe in a god/creator/supreme being/whatever-you-wanna-call-it, then that's cool. It's good to be honest about that.

But to claim that "Atheism is what happens when you grow up" (as someone did above) is as equally narrow-minded as the claim that "the LDS Church is the only true church on the face of the earth." Yes, "equally" narrow minded. Many atheists are certainly grown up. But growing up is not synonymous with atheism.

Knowledge of our creator doesn't come from science. Nor does it come from religion. Or books. Or any institution created by humans. The source of such knowledge is the same source as our conscious awareness. It comes from within each of us.

I love science. I love physics, and biology, and evolution, and the big bang. All of it. But science has not even come close to proving, or even suggesting, that a creator of this universe doesn't exist. Science is not even in the same realm as the creator, because again, our knowledge of the creator comes from within.

Likewise, science is not even in the same realm as our conscious awareness. Do you realize that science has never ever proven that any being is consciously aware? Science doesn't even know where to look for consciousness! It's pretty amazing. Your knowledge of your own conscious awareness does not come from science. Your knowledge of your own conscious awareness is 100 percent purely subjective. You know it because you know it.

And yet, our conscious awareness is MORE than half the equation when it comes to understanding the universe. Without conscious awareness, the entire universe would be meaningless. How can we deduct from science, which only has a grasp of time, space, and matter, that "god" doesn't exist, when the most signficant part of the universe - our conscious awareness - cannot even be touched by science!

Deep within ourselves is where we find God. Not a vengeful or jealous god. Not a god that will eternally punish certain people after they die. That stuff is all garbage. We learn God exists via the same source that we know we are consciously aware. When we are present and mindful of our true nature, we discover that God is the ultimate source of consciousness.

But again, I'm totally cool with atheists, and atheists have nothing to worry about :)

And I'm cool with theists quite frankly. I don't believe in God just because I am unable to, I don't really spend that much time thinking about it anymore. It is just a default position for me, and I try, sometimes unsuccessfully, not to be a sanctimonious pain in the ass about it. So please forgive my irreverent comments

So you're a deist?

Believing in a god or gods (and demons and witches and all the other associated unseen characters) is what primitive people did because they couldn't understand where the sun went at night time, how rain happened, or why there were earthquakes and volcanoes and diseases that killed their children or destroyed their crops or animals.

It's called anthropomorphizing or "personifying" nature because you can't understand how it works. You think there has to be an invisible man making everything happen, because you don't know how the laws of physics work.

This kind of thinking was understandable in prehistoric and ancient times, but today there is no excuse. We have science now.

There is no magical god, there's just reality.

So LOOOOOOOOOOOOVE that explaination! Thank you for spelling it out in a way I can convey to others easily.

Thank you for that. My thoughts exactly.

"But science has not even come close to proving, or even suggesting, that a creator of this universe doesn't exist."

Science isn't out to prove god doesn't exist. I've never seen that on any scientific agenda ever. Science is out to explore and gather data and knowledge and is thrilled with whatever they find. They don't care what the new data supports. The just want to discover any truth at all.

Religions does have an agenda though--all religion. With each new scientific discovery religions scramble to find an apologetic answer to help maintain their agenda. Many religions are out to discredit atheism and do in fact claim that evolution does not exist and that Creationism is the truth even though there is zero evidence for it.

Atheism truly is letting preconception slide to the floor.

I think the argument Don Bagley was trying to make is that atheism is a better alternative to rigid, dogmatic authoritarianism, whether it be to a religious organization surrounding a god or the government of a godlike king.

Your relationship with your privately perceived god is your business, and what you do with your faith is your prerogative. However, the god you describe does not fit in with my worldview nor does it jive with my experience.

But to each his own. You find god nestled up all snug, quiet and peaceful in the recesses of your mind, and I don't find one at all. If I DID create a profile of god, it would be equal part callous and benevolent, destructive and creative, but always erratic with its behavior and selective in its doled-out graces.

But that's as much fiction as my perception of your all good god.

Atheism makes sense, if only because no God has come forward to give the world a unified understanding of it, its mechanics, or its plans for us and our world.

He hides, he whispers. Maybe he rustles some branches on a windy day. Maybe he's a trickster god, like Loki, who changes his form and confuses the masses of men for his own designs or merriment. Or maybe he's just not there. I think the latter makes the most sense.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 11:24AM by En Sabah Nur.

donbagley Wrote:
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> Sometimes it is better to proceed as if there were
> no god, other times it is essential.
>

And for some God-NoGod isn't really a choice because it is not a concept and is more an experience. Experiencing God is a very different thing than thinking about God. William James is excellent on this. So is this from the NYT:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/opinionator/2014/03/30/is-belief-a-jewish-notion/

Snippet:

Gary Gutting: You say you’re a naturalist and deny that there are any supernatural beings, yet you’re a practicing Jew and deny that you’re an atheist. What’s going on here? What’s a God that’s not a supernatural being?

Howard Wettstein: Let’s begin with a distinction between participation in a practice and the activity of theorizing, philosophically and otherwise, about the practice. Even an advanced and creative mathematician need not have views about, say, the metaphysical status of numbers. Richard Feynman, the great physicist, is rumored to have said that he lived among the numbers, that he was intimate with them. However, he had no views about their metaphysical status; he was highly skeptical about philosophers’ inquiries into such things. He had trouble, or so I imagine, understanding what was at stake in the question of whether the concept of existence had application to such abstractions. Feynman had no worries about whether he was really thinking about numbers. But “existence” was another thing.

It is this distinction between participation and theorizing that seems to me relevant to religious life.

There are plenty of reasons why prisoners get interested in religion that have nothing to do with thinking there's a god all the sudden. Prison is boring. Church services break up the monotony. It's an opportunity to have contact with outsiders and to gather with other prisoners. Showing religious dedication looks good to parole boards.

Would love to see a study/results if a study of how many criminals who "found" their religion while incarcerated lost it vs. retained said religion once released back to the hood. (or where ever they resided after release back into society)

The 'hood?' Really? Wow.

They're also desperate, held by an abusive system, in a high-conflict environment, surrounded by Bibles.

Seems like a no brainer to me.

Works for me!

Timothy

Get religion.


It's laughable to see criminals go from criminaling to Bible-thumping and back and forth and back and forth...


Seen it a thousand times...

"I love science."

Well, so do I. But WHY do I love science?

It's amazing to me to know how small our planet is when compared to the Universe (or Multiverse). And it's amazing to me that my teeny tiny DNA determines so many things about my physical nature.

But I'm led to ask WHY all that is so amazing to me.

To some more evolved being (if there is one), it wouldn't be all that amazing.

I've long ago given up on organized (and not-so-organized) religion.

But early in the morning, I watch the night turn into day, and I also wonder how all this stuff we call "life" came to be what it is now.

Or rather, seems to be.

Why Atheism? Because any gods I've ever been presented with are just plain so rinky dink small. They are all, every last one of them, obviously the products of the human mind obsessed with human concerns, from the petty how many steps you may take on certain days to internal mystic oneness with the creator. We're such a rip roaring big deal after all. Just ask us.

For god to function in the way that humans envision god must constantly monitor 7.1 billion humans on a never ending basis. Can a thinking entity actually do that? Sounds impossible to me.

I just wish that we could all respect one another's beliefs more than we do.

Just because some (I was too) were once caught up in dogma called Mormonism, doesn't mean we have the right to judge others so harshly.

To me, its all very individual and actually NO ONE really knows for sure.