YesTURDay I posted a heartfelt experience I had and was replied to by a gang of atheists who reverted back to jungle tactics. I understand why you who have no belief in God, the hereafter or any spiritual origins of goodness feel to put out any honest offering from a believer, as if it were a fire. But if possible, may we now and here discuss calmly a couple things?

First, if man continues to evolve at the increasingly rapid rate, with technology and the leaps we are making in all disciplines of science, art and social relations, will he not, in say, 500 years hence, possibly evolve into a kind-hearted, patient and generous form, and eventually, when the last man standing say, 50,000 years after that, be so capable, confident and powerful that he may be mistakenly seen as a God, if he had offspring that he planted into a lovely garden setting?

Will you grant that this may be possible?

Now, do you still think there is no God, at all, anywhere, even far into the distant future?

Are you then saying that any God, ever, is an impossibility?

Really?

And please, just one more item. Do you still assume that I am uneducated and close-minded, compared to yourself?

If there is no God, I am open to this idea, possibility and reality, if there is nothing after death for me, you or anyone, regardless of life-gifts, talents and affections that seemingly had no end.

It would not be the first time I was dead wrong.

But until I mature as you have in my walk to full knowledge, kindly attempt to reprimand me with respect, even if you have to fake it.

I respect each of you, and will continue to, until such a time that I see that such is not appropriate, at all.

Now, please answer: If there is no God now, fine. If there never was a God way way back, ok. But will you deny that the future holds possibilities mentioned above? That a super-evolved soul who has acquired magical and ever-mysterious powers may appear to lesser-evolved creatures? Say, even to a pathologically lying teen with sexual addiction and delusions of grandeur?

In other words, what if brother Joseph did see and converse with a salamander, then angels, then God and Jesus, then Moroni, and Peter, James and John, etc.

Are you saying that an evolved being far into the distance, desiring to replant a religion on a planet, cannot do so, forever, and forever?

That would sort of mean that you think you are a God, to limit such behavior, in advance.

Am I wrong here?

Set me straight, please, and iff possible, using reason and decent contributions and links, etc.

Thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 04:10PM by brotherjoseph.

But what you're describing would be an alien, rather than an immortal god.

I'm baffled at what the problem is here. I'm an atheist. There is zero evidence of god. Zip, zilch, nada. If such evidence were to present itself, I would be willing to revisit the issue. Pretty much every atheist I know would agree.

Life forms are certainly in the process of evolving. But we have nothing that suggests they are evolving magical powers. If and when that happens, I'd be happy to revisit the issue. But in the meanwhile, I'm not going to believe in something that doesn't exist.

You want to desperately believe in something that is entirely without credible evidence. That's OK. Believe what you want.

Were any one of us now living able to go back 300 years and tell the wonders now taken by most completely for granted, the listeners would think your imagination nigh unto a God.

Where do you fathom man will be in a thousand years and more?

A God may very well evolve from the mass today living.

If this is possible, why do we think He may be limited or cease to exist by seemingly child-like declarations, though bold?

So, basically you've acknowledged you have no way to present any kind of reasonable argument or evidence to account for your belief in a god or gods, so you've just decided to change your definition of the word "god?"

I don't understand what you're asking.

Are you saying it's possible that humans will eventually evolve to a point where we'll no longer be recognizable as humans? Obviously.

Are you asking if it's possible that some highly evolved beings might choose to toy with primitive species on other planets? It's possible.

But that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether any gods exist, and especially doesn't account for why anyone would believe that a supernatural entity is responsible for the existence of... existence.

You want to have a civilized discussion? Maybe start with not moving the goal post when your premise is soundly refuted :)

kolobian Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So, basically you've acknowledged you have no way
> to present any kind of reasonable argument or
> evidence to account for your belief in a god or
> gods, so you've just decided to change your
> definition of the word "god?"
>
> I don't understand what you're asking.
>
> Are you saying it's possible that humans will
> eventually evolve to a point where we'll no longer
> be recognizable as humans? Obviously.
>
> Are you asking if it's possible that some highly
> evolved beings might choose to toy with primitive
> species on other planets? It's possible.
>
> But that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether
> any gods exist, and especially doesn't account for
> why anyone would believe that a supernatural
> entity is responsible for the existence of...
> existence.
>
> You want to have a civilized discussion? Maybe
> start with not moving the goal post when your
> premise is soundly refuted :)

-
There is no goal post, and I have not moved anything non-existant. I ask once again. Is a God possible? Ever? No?

Then say it.

Define "god"

Hawaiians thought Captain Cook and his men were gods, then they saw one of them die and realized they weren't. The Good Cap'n was summarily executed and his bones were boiled. That could happen to your future man-god

Every time we figure out how something works without need of outside assistance, God retreats.

For instance, most people used to believe that God caused each and every rainstorm to occur at His will. Now we know that the precipitation cycle of water is natural and automatic. Sadly, some people still believe the old model and pray for rain. For the rest of us, God is out of the rain business. God is out of the earthquake business once you understand plate tectonics, and evolution takes God out of the animal fabricating industry. God is in retreat.

donbagley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every time we figure out how something works
> without need of outside assistance, God retreats.
>
> For instance, most people used to believe that God
> caused each and every rainstorm to occur at His
> will. Now we know that the precipitation cycle of
> water is natural and automatic. Sadly, some people
> still believe the old model and pray for rain. For
> the rest of us, God is out of the rain business.
> God is out of the earthquake business once you
> understand plate tectonics, and evolution takes
> God out of the animal fabricating industry. God is
> in retreat.

Natural and automatic? Tell this to the hundreds of farmers in the American southwest who fervently pray for rain, year after year. They pray sincerely, yet the drought continues, yet they believe. Why? It is because if there be no God, we are miracles. Life and love and justice and help and greatness from nothing.

A miracle, indeed.

Don't forget that drought and flood cycles are part of the natural climate. This climate appears to be warming and some areas are getting less rain. Like California, for instance, where I live.

I think that a basic course in biology might be helpful to you.

Miracles indeed.

I think he needs to put away the bong

Or just pass it to the right...

that may be the only way to make this thread bearable

I'm afraid there isn't enough "chronic" in all the world...

No, not miracles, just the lucky lottery winner in a universe full of dead, loser planets. If you know anything about probability theory, you will understand what I mean here.

Nope. Your definition of god appears to be similar to the twisted one that mormons use. If god is the creator, how can he be a result of "his" creation? It's an endless loop of pursuing "exaltation". There never was a beginning? Uh huh, right. That's not the definition of god that the other 99% of believers in the various Abrahamic religions believe in.

If you haven't been paying attention, humanity isn't evolving into something better and more advanced. For that to happen, we'd need to cull all the unfit, perish the thought! Nope, instead everyone with working genitals really REALLY ought to go right ahead and make babies, regardless of the state of their minds or bodies.
That's not taking us anywhere good. At the very least we are going to evolve into various classes of humans, and the clever ones will enslave the less clever ones. For their own good, of course. We'll need to protect them from harming themselves, and of course they can be productive and have a purpose in their safe, created environments.

Have fun with your mental masturbation! There is no god, and reality is better without the lies and make believe.

anon bcuz wow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nope. Your definition of god appears to be
> similar to the twisted one that mormons use. If
> god is the creator, how can he be a result of
> "his" creation? It's an endless loop of pursuing
> "exaltation". There never was a beginning? Uh
> huh, right. That's not the definition of god that
> the other 99% of believers in the various
> Abrahamic religions believe in.
>
> If you haven't been paying attention, humanity
> isn't evolving into something better and more
> advanced. For that to happen, we'd need to cull
> all the unfit, perish the thought! Nope, instead
> everyone with working genitals really REALLY ought
> to go right ahead and make babies, regardless of
> the state of their minds or bodies.
> That's not taking us anywhere good. At the very
> least we are going to evolve into various classes
> of humans, and the clever ones will enslave the
> less clever ones. For their own good, of course.
> We'll need to protect them from harming
> themselves, and of course they can be productive
> and have a purpose in their safe, created
> environments.
>
> Have fun with your mental masturbation! There is
> no god, and reality is better without the lies and
> make believe.

-

Good and great men believe in God.

I am one of them. Many far wiser and more cultured and mature trust in God, as Father, and so I find it too simple to go with that flow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxPPDQYZW0c

Not all clever men seek to enslave. Some devote entire lives to uplift, educate and inspire.

.

Hahaha! You really ought to take off those rose colored glasses and study humanity a bit closer. That's okay though, optimists like you are good prey for scams, there's a place for everyone in this world.
I do believe that you must be a straight white male to still hold such admiration for the things brought to us by religion. Just another one who was special and privileged, still dreaming of privilege and advantage. You never really suffered at the hands of the cult, your writing reeks of an idle, spoiled boy's dreams. If you really knew what it feels like to be trodden on by men masquerading as god's authority, these foolish fantasies wouldn't trouble you so. Erecting a facade of piety and admiration for the stories of heroes, made up after the fact, exposes the insecurity you hold deep inside... I might be right, and you know it. You fear it.

By using the logical fallacy of appeal to authority, you reveal you don't know wtf you're talking about. You asked for a good debate, but came to the table with only a second grader's knowledge. Buhbye!

Oh, don't fall for the clickbait, the rest of you. This is an easy way to farm for traffic. Pretend someone else will explain your argument, and then leave a link with your nonanswers.

What I see here is atheists saying, "There is no evidence of any gods."

What I see you as hearing is, "There is no god. It is impossible for there to be a god." I don't recall anyone saying that.

Someone doing a social experiment 500 years in the future would not make him any more than a combination sociologist, anthropologist, scientific hybrid.

Mormons and most religions consider their God to be Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient, and a lot of other things that start with Omni. Would your space explorer in the future be those things? He would need to be in order to fit today's definition of a god.

It is possible, of course. But then there's that pesky "evidence" thing to deal with still. And alas, also that pesky thing ladell mentioned: Your God will probably still be mortal and will die. Although I do allow the possibility that man will learn to live forever, but . . .I'm not holding my breath.

Has this board gotten so mean-spirited that some posters have lowered to name calling like this?

Could you please list the specific name calling? I can't find any. I see a lot diverse opinions being expressed. They are frank. But any ugly names being hurled are not coming through on my screen.

rgg Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Has this board gotten so mean-spirited that some
> posters have lowered to name calling like this?

I forgive and forget any meanness.

I want to know if God is not possible.

I want to know who actually believes such an absurd thing. And if such is the result of an open mind, in their opinion.

Well I’ll be darned. I had a religion class eons ago and I put forth that same basic proposal.

However, looking back I built that theory based on what I knew of the universe through Mormon ignorance and Mormon filters. Rationally with the limited knowledge that I had at that time it worked. And like you I could not see how anyone else couldn’t see just how reasonable my theory was.

I was wrong. I was wrong for a hundred reasons. I’m not saying your theory isn’t rational but that makes nothing real or probable. The difficulty here is asking the question that religious apologetics seems to faithfully skirt. That question is, What are the reasonable probabilities based on known evidence?

First start making a list of reasonable assertions to support/unsupport your theory.

Here is just one of what can be a very long list against your theoretical assumption.

Is it reasonable to assume that many other species on earth can also think and ponder life and their future and whether there is a higher benevolent power that created or was deeply involved in “their” universe? And if so is it reasonable to assume that yellow slugs are a higher evolved thinking animal that we as humans as of yet unaware and that these slugs believe in a higher benevolent being in the image of a slug and that one of them at this moment is proposing to his fellow slugs the same basic theory that you just did to us. And is it reasonable to assume that out of the billions of species of life on earth that there could be a hundred thousand that contemplate the idea of god?

Is it then reasonable to assume that we humans are arrogant beyond belief to think that only we can think of the concept of god and the possibilities thereof?

Are you beginning to see the enormous rabbit hole that this theory can send you into? There is literally no end.

What I’m saying is that the probabilities of what you propose are so remote and lack so much positive evidence that it becomes unreasonable to further attempt to support the original assertion.



Hope I helped. I’m sure others will help too.

Your "civilized" discussion contains way to many....if, could it be possible, mistaken for gods, super-evolved magical and mystical powers, and other hypothetical or absolute thinking jiberish that it is far from civilized. Wild and out of control speculation seems a better fit.

To the OP,


I think that yes, there could be someone so evolved that they appear to those much less so, as very powerful. Perhaps if those less evolved have consciousness, they would want him as a god--if that isn't a concept unique to just our earth.

However, I am a naturalist, and as such, I resolutely deny the possibility of the supernatural. So far as I understand most theists, this is a necessary component--excepting Mormonism as conceived in the d&c (not in the incorrect understanding most LDS have).

I am sure you are very intelligent and educated; atheists certainly don't hold the corner on that.

I do think that there are no gods, nor could there ever be. Just my opinion.

Edmond Dantes Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To the OP,
>
>
> I think that yes, there could be someone so
> evolved that they appear to those much less so, as
> very powerful. Perhaps if those less evolved have
> consciousness, they would want him as a god--if
> that isn't a concept unique to just our earth.
>
> However, I am a naturalist, and as such, I
> resolutely deny the possibility of the
> supernatural. So far as I understand most
> theists, this is a necessary component--excepting
> Mormonism as conceived in the d&c (not in the
> incorrect understanding most LDS have).
>
> I am sure you are very intelligent and educated;
> atheists certainly don't hold the corner on that.
>
> I do think that there are no gods, nor could there
> ever be. Just my opinion.

I never graduated from High School. But I have a love for learning that I've found in no other person, so far. The Library card in my pocket is very worn out, and there is almost no branch of study (besides math) that I dislike.

Where this curiosity and endless wondering came from, I have no idea. Books, music, people and especially my kids make this life so great, I wish it were heaven.

I was once so far in debt, so hunted for by haters and so abused in my own thoughts that I am not supposed to be alive now.

Now, I have a girl whom I dearly love, our three little boys, a home that is paid for and still, amazingly, my nearly-perfect health.

I see that those who never surrender are the lucky ones, after all. A bowl of soup and reading to drowsiness often is my estimation of great wealth.

I have all I need. I am in heaven, already.

You loving parents understand.

OP:


You remind me a lot of myself...but I love math.

So who is the god that you believe in, or hope is out there?

Better questions if your scenario were accepted for discussion.

Would it be of upmost importance that "gods" children did not have more than 2 earrings?

Would it be important to this alleged god that children be interrogated to demonstrate their masturbation technique?

Would it be a good idea to not have unqualified and unlearned people speak for this alleged god?

Might some type of specific instructions with a legit chain of authenticity be a better way than a make it up as you go system?

Would this god make people in his own image? If so would some of them be homosexual persons or transgendered?

What would be the purpose of this god making so many species extinct before the creation of his children?

And most importantly....

Do you think this god would direct his children to steal planes and ram them into occupied buildings?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 05:06PM by deco.

Well said, but as you have noticed, those among us who know all things lack any humility, so I wouldn't expect much improvement in treatment. Sometimes I wonder if a separate website of former Mormons who still "believe in "something" might be a better choice for some of us.

Why can't we just live and let live? Everyone is free to believe whatever they want. It doesn't attack your way of thinking just because someone else disagrees with you. I agree with Carl Sagan:

"An atheist has to know a lot more than I know. An atheist is someone who knows there is no god."

“My view is that if there is no evidence for it, then forget about it . . . An agnostic is somebody who doesn't believe in something until there is evidence for it, so I’m agnostic.”

And I'm agnostic as well. I'm perfectly fine with supporting others in their rejection or acceptance of deity. Just remember there is no evidence for either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 05:16PM by raygun.

It is in the home you build, with the woman you cherish, the children you learn from and the neighbors you know as true friends. There, the trees are green, the sky as blue as any, the clouds pure white, and the food grown locally.

http://lifebeyondthesea.com/?merchant_return_link=Return+to+LifeBeyondTheSea.com&auth=AJDI-coDL92.kYOnOrXMPVQXz3-fKo3ARvqU94VEBmPUfSfk8po.4kSui6Vf3SMI-kNPg3WIkkieSjF7fX4HrDw

Won't you be my neighbor?

HINT: My humble home has a MORMON-FREE ZONE sign out front. Come, you each are welcome. I mean it.

Even you hard-boiled atheists.

Let me show you what rice really tastes like, and pork chops that have never been refrigerated, eggs that are warmly delivered before sun-up daily, and where the crowing of scores of roosters are the only alarm clock in all the happy villages.

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 05:30PM by brotherjoseph.

<<First, if man continues to evolve at the increasingly rapid rate,>>

I'm sorry, but man is not evolving at an increasingly rapid rate, so it is not possible for him to continue doing so.

brotherjoseph, I'm an atheist, but I love having respectful conversations. I used to have wonderful discussions with a Catholic friend. We politely disagreed about many things, which made for some interesting lunches. I propose that stay on conversation, the question of if there is a god or not, and just ignore anything else, including any off subject comments from other posters.

For me, having respectful conversations mean not making comments such as believing in God is mental masturbation. I believe that people can look at the same thing and come to different conclusions so I’m very interested in hearing how you arrive at your. Also, instead of linking to youtube videos, can you please summarize the points.

I didn’t see your other thread, so please let me know your premise.

For the question in this OP, and correct me if this is wrong: Is it possible that some sort of being could become so evolved to that in 50,000 years an evolved human can seem like the god of the old testament.

At first glance. The short answer is “nope,” but in order to debate this, I need a lot more information. What powers are you saying that such a god has? You say you believe in a creator god who designed your cells. Do you believe in young earth creation or ID?

Do you believe in a god who reads souls and provides inspiration? Tell me what your god is like and I can tell you why I don’t believe that is possible, or at least why such a god does not exist on this planet.

I think atheists have been far too civilized, far too accommodating, and far too quiet in this discussion....

Religion hurts us as an American (and I am sure other) societies.

First of all, these religions are big businesses that are subsidized by the taxpayer. Mormonism would be number one on that list.

Secondly, religions have not historically played nicely or civilly with people that do not agree with them. The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind, as well as the handful of countries that being an atheist is a capital offense that people are routinely beheaded for.

Additionally, the religious industry meddles constantly in politics and the formation of public policy.

Also, one might add that incidents such as demanding of giving credibility to ideas such as creationism in children's classrooms does have long term ramifications. It does stifle science education...and could cost us research of important new technology...like better iphones in the future.

Should we throw in suicide bombers, the kamikazes of september 11, or christians bombing reproductive health clinics?

I see no reason to treat religions with anything other than scorn, ridicule, and contempt.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/03/2014 05:30PM by deco.

God is not found in any religion: only in hearts that love.

Jesus Christ taught no one to build a single building, in fact, he spoke about the temple...being completely dismantled.

He warned of the "long-robed" in the marketplaces who loved adoration, wherever they went.

Today, those long robes have become "suits" and the leaders of hypocrisy do enjoy being fawned over, wherever they go.

"God is not found in any religion: only in hearts that love."

I think some religions might disagree with this.

I'm with you. I DO very much believe in God. But I totally understand why so many Exmo's go the rout of atheism. After all we have been taught that All other religions are abominations in His sight...right? So when you discover that THCC is a complete fraud then where does that leave you with religion?
I am an educated man with much experience and life and advanced degrees from a major university...NOT BYU. I've given this much consideration and study. And I agree with Einstein who said "My since of God is my since of wonder at the Universe" .. That pretty much sums it up. Call it intelligent design ..call it what ever you like. This Universe and its creation is no accident. How in the hell can that sort of accident with the complex materials be distributed in such a way that it has created life across its expanse? You have heard of achems razor right? Well, the only realistic answer is that an intelligent force is behind this creation and it does have a purpose. Just because some simple minded idiots turned it into a theocratic endeavor does not mean there is no higher order of thinking at its origins. AND PLEASE do not criticize people who do NOT believe the way you do... isn't that why we all left THCC ??? think about it.

Proclous Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm with you. I DO very much believe in God. But I
> totally understand why so many Exmo's go the rout
> of atheism. After all we have been taught that All
> other religions are abominations in His
> sight...right? So when you discover that THCC is a
> complete fraud then where does that leave you with
> religion?
> I am an educated man with much experience and life
> and advanced degrees from a major university...NOT
> BYU. I've given this much consideration and study.
> And I agree with Einstein who said "My since of
> God is my since of wonder at the Universe" .. That
> pretty much sums it up. Call it intelligent design
> ..call it what ever you like. This Universe and
> its creation is no accident. How in the hell can
> that sort of accident with the complex materials
> be distributed in such a way that it has created
> life across its expanse? You have heard of achems
> razor right? Well, the only realistic answer is
> that an intelligent force is behind this creation
> and it does have a purpose. Just because some
> simple minded idiots turned it into a theocratic
> endeavor does not mean there is no higher order of
> thinking at its origins. AND PLEASE do not
> criticize people who do NOT believe the way you
> do... isn't that why we all left THCC ??? think
> about it.

-
The longer the thread, the greater the insights. Thank you for this gem. (Can I use that word?)

Advanced degrees?

Really?

"And I agree with Einstein who said "My since of God is my since of wonder at the Universe"

achems razor

Really?