Hi Folks,

Most of you are aware that the LDS Church recently published an essay to address the growing awareness among members that DNA evidence does not support genetic ties between Native American and Middle Eastern people. https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

The essay relies heavily on the work of LDS scientist, Ugo Perego, who’s own research has led him to believe that Native Americans have lived in the Americas for more than 15,000 years and virtually all of their DNA is derived from Asia. You read that right. Perego is an evolutionist. Perego, like the majority (>99%) of biological scientists, believes that humans evolved from a common ancestor shared by all primates and he believes that our recent ancestors migrated out of Africa about 100,000 years ago and colonized most of the globe during the last 50,000 years.

Ugo believes that Book of Mormon people were absorbed into Native American civilizations soon after their arrival and their DNA was diluted away to undetectable levels. Many Mormons find this difficult to reconcile with the text, however, Perego’s views also appear to conflict with other widely held LDS beliefs (no death before the fall, 7,000 year old earth and the global flood — see D&C 77, 2 Nephi 2:22).

Not only does the essay not answer the troubling DNA question, it raises a host of new issues. After punishing and marginalising scientists and dismissing evolution for decades, the Church is now relying on an evolutionary biologist to defend itself in the face of the DNA problem. Contrast this with how the church treated another evolutionary biologist a few years ago.

Sixteen years ago I raised my concerns about DNA in two private meetings with my Stake President and his counsellors. At the time I had not publicly questioned the church, but within weeks I was branded a critic. I received letters from Area Leaders in Australia in which I was chastised, called to repentance and warned of the dire consequences of my actions. All for doing exactly what members are encouraged to do if they have doubts. Talk privately with their priesthood leaders (I was a bishop). I was so concerned for the church at the time I even wrote to Henry B. Eyring in November 1998 and alerted him to the problems that lay ahead. He never responded. It would be another 18 months before I had the courage to publicly question the church on an exmormon website.

I am now hearing reports that members of my extended LDS family have been reassured by church leaders that the things Simon was troubled about 16 years ago have been "disproven". Like many Mormons, my family have been conditioned to avoid talking about "issues" with questioning family members. Conversations at family gatherings over the last 16 years have been reduced to a few pleasantries at most. Yet all are perfectly comfortable to talk about positive aspects of the church and to share faith-promoting spiritual experiences with me. They want one way conversations about things they want to talk about.

The DNA essay shows clearly that the problems remain and the church still needs to deal with them, and its members, a lot more honestly.

From my blog:
The letters from the Area Presidency http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/blog-post.html.

My unanswered letter to Elder Eyring
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/my-unanswered-letter-to-president-henry.html

My response to the Church’s DNA essay
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/response-to-president-newsroom.html

Some comments on the Church’s double dealing with respect to evolution.
http://simonsoutherton.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/ldsorg-essay-exposes-corporate.html

My first public questioning of the church
http://www.exmormon.org/whylft125.htm

Simon, your phrase "one way" sums up how it is with me and my TBM family. Sometimes it makes me crazy to even talk politely with them.

Thanks for all your research and for standing up for the truth.

"one way"....exactly my family also. It's the most frustrating part of my life.

Simon, thank you so much for your research and knowledge and for never giving up!

One way for the true blue is the only way unfortunately.

To me, the DNA evidence against the BofM was the ultimate proof that the book was a fraud. I was always taught that the Book of Mormon was THE historical record of the Native Americans and that the Americas were virtually unpopulated when Lehi arrived, except for the last of the Jaredites. I was also taught that the Lamanites were "the principal ancestors of the American Indians".

The fact that the 15 are so willing to suddenly change their stance and abandon their former teachings shows that they are well aware that the book is a fraud and will do anything to keep the lie going (and the money pouring in). Even if it means changing the BofM intro itself. They rely on their apologists to invent some absurd story so they can pretend they've answered members' concerns.

Unfortunately, my family will believe this apologetic nonsense no matter how much proof to the contrary is presented. Sadly, a few of my family members have advanced degrees in biology; yet are willing to turn a blind eye to anything spewing from the mouths of the 15.

The letters from the Area Seventies are classic. "Simon, you will become a hollow shell of a man . . ." Well they should know. If anybody knows what its like to be a hollow shell of a man it's the church leaders! They should give seminars on how to do it. Oh, wait, they do---it's called General Conference.


I love they way he refers to BYU's expert as world renowned and then discounts other "experts" by putting them in quotation marks. OF course this makes other hollow shell mormons happy. And on top of that they claim to have disproved the DNA issue but give no back up.

And then to exhort you to ignore fact and reread and pray? That's all they have?

I love what you have done Simon. I could hardly breathe when I read your book I was so excited. Research and evidence are so thrilling now that I don't see them as the enemy.

Thank you for posting this. Thank your for your book based on research and evidence. I didn't even need to pray to get a good feeling. The good feeling came from somewhere in my intellect.

Or maybe they're so blind to the enrichment of an authentic life that they are only able to see an empty container.

Love that.

Too bad they put so much emphasis on reading the Book of Mormon when we were young. It would make swallowing this argument so much easier if we hadn't read it. This is not just an issue of genetics, but also what the Book of Mormon text and Mormon leaders have to say about Native American origins.

Kudos to Simon for delving into these issues in addition to the genetic evidence in Losing a Lost Tribe.

It is just hard to see how this society of the Book of Mormon is totally consumed by the questions of these Israelites, but these are only a tiny minority of a bigger culture. Where are these other people in the story of the Book of Mormon? The larger culture that the Lehites were absorbed into never comes through in the Book of Mormon.

Quite the opposite, everything about Native Americans--at least from the point of view of European settlers on the North American frontier--is "explained" by the Book of Mormon's story about the ancient Israelite settlers. The darker skin tones of Native Americans is explained by the Israelite story--the result of the sinfulness of Laman and Lemuel. The Book of Mormon's story about the Israelite settlers seeks to historically justify the impression that Native Americans were indolent, violent or "loathsome" through its Israelite focused story.

Thank you Simon for your diligent research. I lack the expertise to debunk lds.org's essay on my own, so your analysis is incredibly helpful.

"one way" isn't a conversation but it is the only way the church operates. "one way" is preaching and that is all that ever happens in the LDS church. One man stands at a pulpit and tells you what to think. There are never "discussions" between the leaders and the followers in mormonism. Every good TBM learns this immediately. You don't discuss mormonism you preach it.

Thank you for your post. One way conversations sums it up for me too. Your family must be very threatened by your education and research background. I don't have anything remotely close to that background, and my unbelief and resignation has produced "one way" conversations where they can share their spiritual journey and outlook, and I am not at liberty to share mine (per their request).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2014 11:41AM by iris.

Every time I turn around I read another story about how DNA's "Focus" is getting sharper and sharper and thus exposing deeper and deeper details about the past. If this is so, eventually there will be no place for the LDS church to hide.

Is this really the case, or am I reading too much into the stories I've heard?

The letter from the Area President is a choice piece of work. It epitomizes the condescension and arrogance that some associate with Mormons. Calling you spiritually immature, claiming that a testimony of the church still burned deep in your heart, insinuating that you will no longer have moral restraints in your life … what’s ironic is that his narrow world view in which the LDS Church is the only true church on the earth and any evidence to the contrary from “experts” can be discarded is a clear example of spiritual immaturity.

His quote from Holland’s book also reminded me of what a duplicitous man Holland is. Claiming, with (for Mormons) apostolic authority, that no one in 150 years has come up with a credible alternative to Joseph’s story of the origin of the Book of Mormon, is deceptive and detrimental to thousands of Mormons who will take his word as inspired by God and will not look elsewhere.

The tone of Featherstone’s second letter was better than the first, but it is disturbing that the Church would create a culture where intelligent, good people would say things like this:

“If every single scientist on the earth could prove absolutely through DNA or any other means what has been stated in such publications to which you have referred … it would not affect my testimony one thousandth because my testimony of the Book of Mormon is in the book itself.”

My wife, children, parents, siblings, and in-laws all share this perspective, and it is clear evidence of a cult environment.

Thanks for your efforts, Simon.

Excellent analysis.

All my kin believe in the book and ignore the questions about its origins and our relationship to the theory of evolution.

For them it is all angels and Adam and Eve.

Temples and fictional characters from a Bible fanfic book.

Simon, thank you for all the work you have done. Your book is among those at the top of my reading list, and I always enjoy your posts here.

It as both terrible and fascinating to see how the leaders reacted to your sincere questions.

It reminds me of a moment I had when I was first starting to take a closer look at the church. I was part of an online forum that had started having OT discussions about religion. One person there was "bashing" (being truthful about) the church. I started reacting very defensively, similarly to the reactions you go in the letters from leaders.

After posting, I had a moment of smug satisfaction at how I'd been able to defend the church so soundly against this "anti-Mormon" but it was followed immediately with a sour aftertaste as I thought about how I'd just completely glossed over the fact that this person had been a victim of serious abuse that had be fostered and then covered up by the church culture.

I asked myself "what does it mean that my knee jerk reaction was to defend the church at all costs rather than have true sympathy for this person and want to understand what happened and find out if what they were saying was correct?"

I didn't want to be like that.

I wish more of the LDS leaders also did not want to be like that.

And of course, my sound rebuttal to their statements against the church were complete bunk. I figured that out soon afterwards thank goodness.

SG

There should be a site where multiple scientists, especially the ones called out in the LDS Essays can or would post Essay's that debunk the LDS Essay's.

It's a shame that as least a few courageous yet believing ignorant have nowhere to go if they wanted to verify what non-LDS scientists have to say.

So a believing evolutionary scientist still believes so you should too.

All the while the LDS prophets, seers and revelators don't ever address these issues authoritatively nor do they say shat on any of these Essay's. And why should they? The prophets have the followers inoculating each other. It’s a self-perpetuating anti-truth virus system.

> All the while the LDS prophets, seers and
> revelators don't ever address these issues
> authoritatively

I think this is the red flag that TBMs seem to miss. They go on and on about how great it is to have a living prophet and revelation... but that awesome prophet stays silent on the really big issues! GBH dictates one earring per ear but Monson never speaks plainly about DNA... how does that make sense? Why can't Monson just stand up and say "Thus sayeth the Lord" and settle he DNA debate in one sentence?

It's because they're weasels, not prophets, that's why.

Thank you for your work and persistence on this.

Losing a lost tribe was one of the first things I read on my journey out. I loved it. I also read where you said one of the most spiritual experiences of your life was watching your country win the America's cup and how that got you thinking just what those warm fuzzy feelings mean. It really resonated with me because one of my most profound spiritual experiences involved a sports team too.

So thank you Simon, for opening my eyes with scientific facts and helping me understand what feeling the "spirit" means.

I'm baffled as to how Ugo Perego can assert that the DNA of Lehi and his family disappeared in the resident native american population, in a few thousand years. Has he ever expanded on this notion? Or is it another "just believe"?



Seems like they can still find denisovan DNA in modern humans:

"Surprisingly, the scientists found genetic overlap between the Denisovan genome and that of some present-day east Asians"

https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/denisovan/

And Neanderthal DNA:

"Today, the biological remnants of that collision between two distinct populations remain alive in the genomes of Europeans and East Asians."

http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/anthropology/science-neanderthal-genes-modern-human-dna-01734.html



And that's 30,000 years later.

How does Ugo explain this away? To himself, and to the unwashed masses? Or, like most, is he just too invested to be able to extricate himself at this point?



Just wondering.

The only way out is the Meldrum way. They need to deny evolution and say the Algonquin tribes share mtDNA with Middle Eastern peoples. Forget the Mayans and concentrate on the Algonquins. If the evangelicals can deny evolution, the Mormons would be smart to do the same. That wouldn't make them right, but they would probably be able to convince more of their traditional members.

Thank you Simon.

I still don't understand how the essay can even exist. To believe in its argument, you must discount the entire first chapter of second Nephi. How can a truth seeking person who believes the BoM is "true" tolerate the bait and switch?

5 But, said he, notwithstanding our afflictions, we have obtained a land of promise, a land which is choice above all other lands; a land which the Lord God hath covenanted with me should be a land for the inheritance of my seed. Yea, the Lord hath covenanted this land unto me, and to my children forever, and also all those who should be led out of other countries by the hand of the Lord.

It says forever. If Lehi's seed cannot survive a bit of genetic drift and population mixture, than it is defacto not his seed anymore.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2014 03:38PM by fudley.

Yep. Also, Jeff Holland, Ether 2:8, and 2 Nephi 1:8 all say that there were no other inhabitants on the Americas to dilute the Hebrew DNA.

The essay is indefensible.

"You must buuurnnn de book"!

Remember that from vincenzo de francesca?

It's amazing the double standard the church applies. It tells us Martin Luther is a hero for asking challenging questions then tells us not to ask challenging questions. It tells us to stand up for our principles so long as those principles don't demand you take a stand against the church, we're asked if we're honest with our fellow man just so long as we're not honest with ourselves.

The double standard and hypocrisy is amazing. Integrity led me out of the church because only by lying to myself and denying all of the facts and inconsistencies could enable me to stay in.

Thank you for all your notes of appreciation. As is usual, I posted late in the evening, the earth rotated, and the thread has moved on.

I just wanted to comment further on Perego and Meldrum.
Perego has thrown his weight behind the vanishing Mesoamerican geography model. He is prepared to believe that the few dozen Hebrews that arrived were quickly swallowed up by millions of Mesoamericans making it difficult to detect their DNA. Evidently, Perego believes that the leaders of the Native American civilizations allowed these Hebrews to almost immediately assume the leadership of their civilizations without any apparent struggle. The Book of Mormon tells us nothing about any of this of course. You need a heap of faith.

Perego has also been openly critical of Meldrum's Heartland model. Perego's own scientific research has helped to reveal that the X lineage is derived from Asia. Since its X or bust for Meldrum, there is no way that Perego can follow him. Meldrumite Jake Hilton had a meltdown on his Facebook page after reading the Church's essay, because he felt they had sided with the Mesoamerican crowd. Its all a circus.

For most sensible people, Meldrum offers a brief glimmer of hope until they dig beneath the surface of his sham. He is a snake oil salesman making a living off those desperately struggling to find something credible to hang on to. But he is failing to reach the younger generation who are better educated and can see through his nonsense.

So Perego is holding to the notion that the DNA of ≈ 20 could be totally subsumed and undetectable in a population of ≈ 1,000,000.

Is that a plausible theory on his part?

And per my post above, why can we find neanderthal and denisovan DNA in modern humans. Is it because there was substantial interbreeding with the humans of their time? Or is it because DNA fingerprints, once encoded, are hard to erase?

Just wondering if Perego's theory holds any scientific water, so to speak...

The implosion of Mormonism really has begun. In the absence of any official statement, the leaders could merely wash their hands of apologetic nonsense. However, if something posted on the official church website is not considered an official statement, anonymous or not, then I don't know what is.

I already know what Mormons are going to now say retroactively regarding the NA/Lamanite position. They are going to say that they did the best they could with the information they had available. Funny how the "most correct book" with people that are supposed to be endowed with special revelation can still mislead them so profoundly.

There is another important point, which is that not just mere opinion, but claimed revelation from God to Joseph Smith referrs to Native Americans as "Lamanites." Importantly, it says "Behold, thus saith the Lord" indicating that it is not just Joseph Smith's opinion


Doctrine and Covenants 54:1-2,8

1 Behold, thus saith the Lord, even Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, even he who was crucified for the sins of the world—

2 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, my servant Newel Knight, you shall stand fast in the office whereunto I have appointed you.

8 And thus you shall take your journey into the regions westward, unto the land of Missouri, unto the borders of the Lamanites.



Doctrine and Covenants 49:24

24 But before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness, and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose

Doctrine and Covenants 28:8
(To Oliver Cowdery)

8 And now, behold, I say unto you that you shall go unto the Lamanites and preach my gospel unto them; and inasmuch as they receive thy teachings thou shalt cause my church to be established among them; and thou shalt have revelations, but write them not by way of commandment.

As usual, they have no facts or evidence, only excuses and rationalizations for why there are no facts or evidence. And also as usual, in order to defend Mormonism you have to abandon a literal interpretation of the young earth.

Thanks, Simon, for this well-written post, and for the follow up post above.

The essay is weak because it's apologia. I really doubt the DNA could possibly be "diluted to undetectable levels," seeing the short time that has passed. The BoM speaks of the Nephites and Lamanites existing in the millions. In fact, the very idea that "other peoples" existed among them was never, ever taught and isn't mentioned in the book. I call BS.

Simon: "It would be another 18 months before I had the courage to publicly question the church on an exmormon website."

Hmmmmmmm its as if Simon was living in a regime like North Korea. We should all remember that it's ok to honestly analyze the doings of the great glorious supreme leader ;)

Simon,

In your essay 'first public questioning of the church,' your thoughts on guilt and the pressure to always do more, be more, and be perfect really hit home with me. In my last years as a TBM, I burned out on perfectionism.

You put my feelings into written form, and I thank you for sharing.

Perego? The scientist who conducted "exhaustive" studies trying to find the progeny of Joseph Smith.

And guess what? He didn't find any--no, not one.

And now on to another impartial apologetic investigation....

One cannot claim to be a scientist when one is called to prove an assertion rather than conduct a real investigation.



Kathleen Waters

Simon, thank you...from one ex bishop to another. Your book was one of the first that I read on the way out of Mormonism. One thing we were taught in the church is that truth will prevail. I see stifled growth and an inquisitive generation coming up that will not be hoodwinked as our generation has....I appreciate individuals who are not afraid to tell the emperor that he is bare ass naked. Thanks again.

Simon, thanks for standing up and clarifying these issues for us. Your book was critical in my exit. Since then I have shared my copy of your book with several LDS members and relatives who have approached me with questions about why my family left. They have all since left the Church and your book was critical in their journey. In my opinion the DNA science completely under minds the legitimacy of the BOM. Anyone who critical examines the data will always resolve that the BOM is fraud. What you write helps people like me see through the smoke screens put up by apologists.

Thank you again for keeping us abreast of new developments in DNA science and it's impact on the Church. I'm very grateful you continue to challenge the apologetic papers put out by the LDS Church and others.

Best,

-Johnny