Lol, exactly. Like a lot of he things you "learned" at church it is a mile wide and skin deep. Think about it n isolation and it makes perfect sense. Combine it with another principle and it is completely contradictory.
The OP is the exact question I asked my dad when I was about 8 or 9 years old. He was clearly pissed that I would speak such blasphemy. His answer was trite, and made not sense, like all other attempts to justify/explain away inconsistencies related to god.
It's a very basic question, but one that destroys the whole idea of an omniscient God.
Why DO they pray? Do they think they can change God's perfect mind? Do they think they can influence and change the course of his actions? Do they think they are alerting him to things that have escaped his attention?
They clearly don't believe their own nonsense about an all-knowing God. Either that, or they are of extremely subnormal intelligence.
Because it's a form of meditation where you project your consciousness beyond yourself. It can clarify your thinking on a matter. It can be a release, an act of letting go of your attempts to control the events in your life by turning the job over to the invisible man. I don't believe there's anyone out there hearing the prayers, though. I don't believe there's anyone out there granting wishes -- or getting upset that we aren't properly groveling and thanking and thanking and thanking and groveling some more. I don't pray.
There's a well known mental phenomenon regarding problem solving. You spend a short time in concentrated thought about the problem, thinking of possible solutions. Then you walk away from it and occupy yourself with something else while the subconscious keeps working on the problem. That's usually when the solution will come to you, and it will feel like it came out of nowhere. I did this my whole career.
Mormonism exploits this nearly universal phenomenon with its instructions to ponder something in your heart and then seek validation through prayer. The act of prayer is enough of a break from heavy concentration on a problem to let answers percolate into conscious thought. Then Mormons give prayer and God the credit for what was actually their own mind in action.
+1 Great observation. I have always been aware that that is the way my mind solves problems more than any other way, but to apply it to answers to prayers? That makes sense.
Give god the credit for everything. Give yourself the blame for everything. Sheesh. We should appreciate ourselves a little more.
Prayer isn't for His benefit. It's for our benefit - to grow in our faith and build our relationship to Him. The motivation to "get" something out of prayer, if it's there, is secondary to this primary reason for prayer, and really just serves as a motivator to get those of us on a lower spiritual level to do prayer and gain the primary benefit of it. The benefits of meditation, additionally, also extend to meditative prayer.
Matt 6:8 indicates God already knows what you want. Jesus therefore taught (if we can assume Jesus of Nazareth lived) prayer is a form of meditation and communion with the divine unknown.
"It's for our benefit - to grow in our faith and build our relationship to Him. The motivation to "get" something out of prayer, if it's there, is secondary to this primary reason for prayer"
These reasons are the same. You said we don't pray to get something out of it, we pray to get something out of it.
Sorry that I didn't clarify it better. You don't have to (and ideally, you shouldn't) pray to get something but prayer is NOT without its benefit. In other words, prayer is not pointless.
A true loving relationship is reciprocal. The ideal is that we selflessly love Him and give to Him, and He always selflessly gives. But if we are not yet at the point where we give without getting something for it then we can pray for something and we can get it. We can even pray for the benefits of prayer - which we would be receiving anyway - if we wish although that's not necessary. Then by having such a motivation we are praying and that gradually helps to build our relationship with God and purifies our hearts to the point where we are more selfless in our relationships with each other and in our relationship with God.
What I was taught, and what rank and file Christians and Mormons were taught: If you want something, pray for it, and if you do it right and god isn't in a bad mood, you'll get it. If not, it doesn't mean god wasn't listening or didn't care, it's that he didn't think it was good for you to have it, that there was some lesson to be learned in god saying no instead. Hell, the title of a sermon preached once in church, a mainstream, not fundamentalist one, from a minister with a Ph.D. no less, was "Sometimes God Says No" or "When God Says No." Something like that. It never sat well with me, even then, probably 35 years ago this was. This is a very common theme you'll hear from Christians. It's a cop out.
I asked that when I was very young and was told that it is so we would know for ourselves--which to me meant that we shouldn't take God's word for it, and then I thought, "Why wouldn't you take God's word for it?" Because he is like, well, God--and so my mind kind of went numb and since it was my very parents telling me this I just shelved it because my father eventually ended the conversation by saying Heavenly Father did not want us to "delve into the mysteries" which he said a lot. A real lot.
I can agree with this explanation. I also don't think it's unreasonable to believe that God, if one exists, would want us to exercise faith and ask for what he/she/it already knows we need.
What I don't understand is priesthood blessings. The efficacy of the blessing is contingent on faith and God's will, not on the power of the priesthood. So how would requesting a blessing demonstrate any more faith than a simple prayer? In addition, why would God put in place a system that could destroy faith when uninspired priesthood holders pronounce blessings that aren't God's will.
Think of praying like this forum. God may know everything, but that's a lot of ion to process. Praying is like bumping a thread. The topic goes on the front page so He is more likely to see it. Thus, this is why it's sometimes encouraged that multiple people pray: the topic stays on the front page longer.
Thus, priesthood blessings are like stickied posts that stay on top. Add oil to the blessing, it's like the best of page here.
You are right. I have also found that when you put someone's name on the temple roll, your results are proportional to the number of times you put their name in. (kind of like stuffing the ballot or raffle box.)
When I used to go to the temple with my wife, she would have me to write our son's name on the prayer roll. I never used to get any results with only one entry. After I started putting his name in on 20 slips of paper each time, the results really started coming. What a great kid he turned out to be!!
I doubt I would have ever God to notice or care about my son if I hadn't gotten aggressive about it. God is so busy keeping it from raining on Mormon girls camps, finding parking places, wallets, and lost dogs for faithful Mormons that unless you make some waves he is likely to forget about you.
9 million kids under 5 years old will die this year in spite of some pretty sincere praying by a lot of people. (Mostly non Mormons so no biggie) Don't expect God to notice you unless you make yourself stand out from the crowd. Tell him you will give up soda or chocolate... That seems to get good results. He also likes blood a lot. Spill lots of blood. Or money. God always needs money... all powerful... all knowing... he just needs money!!!
While I don't believe we're praying to anyone, if I was a parent and knew my kid needed something, I may be inclined to wait for the kid to ask rather than just give it (assuming it wasn't life and death) so that the kid has a chance to handle things themself.
Was the first pre-Internet concern for me to cause me reason to see the fraud.
Supplication to an All-Knowing, All-Loving Father or a ersonal relationship with Christ, talk to Him like it is a personal conversation, Jesus is on the other side of the door with no handle, only you have the handle on your side. All absurd, all making prayer useless. Not to mention the multi-generational useless responses that make prayer pointless, but eternally justified and rational to a TBM.
At the end I could not get my TBMs to see how I saw prayer. I just asked them, could it be nothing more than requiring obedience and showing respect to things bigger than us and out of our control and understanding.
Nope.
See all the things above that are the Mormon prayer, add your own.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2014 12:28PM by gentlestrength.
That's one thing that's always bugged me about the lost 116 pages: God knew that "evil men" sometime in the far future would try to screw Joseph Smith over, so there were 2 sets of plates to cover that eventuality, because he knew it was gonna happen, so....?
However, JS asked god three times about letting Martin Harris borrow the 116 pages and he said "No" the first 2 times, then changed his mind and said "OK already, just stop bugging me about it." But he knew it was gonna happen, so....?
He may well know everything, but we pray to get him to change his mind.
Prayer is a self centered, egotistical request that God suspend the natural laws of the universe in our favor. It is an opportunity to point out to the omniscient ruler of the universe that he should alter his otherwise perfect plans to better accommodate our personal interests.
While believing that he does indeed know everything, we nevertheless think he needs an occasional reminder to keep us his highest priority.
Prayer is also useful as an opportunity to negotiate concessions and special favors. No matter what we propose on our end as trade for his special treatment, God always goes along.
The way I was taught to pray was ridiculous. First you address Heavenly Father and shower him with accolades. Apparently his ego is his Achilles' Heel. Then you thank Him for all the relatives you can name and pets as well. Make sure to praise his excellency for your marvelous parents, the ones who told you to do so. Once you've softened the old duffer's heart, you deliver the pitch:
A new bicycle A puppy Death to your enemies Find your car keys
Then you pretend you don't really care about your request all that much and would prefer God's will in the end. This is complete bullshirt, as you are obviously desperate enough to try begging an invisible being to fulfill your desires. Then you end by citing His son as a possible supporter of your cause by putting it all in the kid's name.
Good question........because unless you are big-banger he is a jealous God (He or it owns the joint) and all he asks is...ASK ME...and by ASKING ME you are believing in me.
That's the best that I can ascertain out of the NEW Testament
I was a labor & delivery nurse for many years, here in SLC. Often, LDS patients would call for a blessing, and whatever priesthood holders were available would come and administer one.
One patient whom I had been caring for called for the elders as we were preparing her for a C-section because the labor was not progressing. She had a fever, and the baby was showing signs of stress. The elders came, and it was requested by the family that all medical personnel leave the room so the patient and her unborn baby could receive a blessing. From the nurses station, I watched the baby's heart rate take a dive during this "blessing". We rushed the patient to the operating room, but the baby was compromised.
I have beat myself up for this for many years. Why did God allow this to happen, and during a prayer? What could I have done differently? The physician felt the same, as I recall. This made me feel that it's just possible there is no God who cares about individuals, else why would he allow an innocent baby to be harmed as a prayer was given in it's behalf?