It seems like most of us would agree that the 15 know this is a hoax and are in it for the money, power, or maybe something else.

If money is the big contributor, someone should incentivize them to deviate from the truth by offering a large sum of money if they come out with the truth. Of course, this could go two ways...there are other social costs to confession, and if no one confesses, this incentive could be used as evidence of the truthfulness...however, imagine the implications if someone, even one of the 70 with good knowledge of this, takes the offer.

Per another board, there was a 70 who also knew the flaws and was inclined not to follow, but the costs were too high. If even one 70 were to proclaim the truth and this would be incentive enough to cause someone to act, it might be worth it.

Could this work? What amount would be enough? Probably at least a few million...

I think we're assuming too much if we think they "know" anything of the sort. I've always thought they're just like most Mormons: they see no reason to go beyond the correlated stuff and find the real history. I'm sure some GAs know about the issues, but my guess is that most are as blissfully ignorant as the membership at large.

I've heard people say, "But surely they know God isn't talking to them!" I would simply answer that most of us thought God was talking to us when we were Mormons.

I wouldn't say that most of us thought that God was talking to us. I grew awfully frustrated due to the fact that God WASN'T talking to me, giving me answers, etc... I still maintained my faith...until I learned the truth. Then, everything started to make sense. I would say that very few members think that God talks to them. They might feel like their prayers are answered, but often in round-about ways.

"They might feel like their prayers are answered, but often in round-about ways."

When Hinckley was asked about how he received revelation, it sounded almost exactly like what you describe above.

Elder Scott has described how he receives "revelation" as well. He prays, then reads, takes notes and writes his thoughts, prays more, reads more, takes more notes, etc... He eventually comes to a conclusion that he feels good about. So, Jesus spoke directly to Joe, gave him revelations in his own voice, but he leaves the current profits with this tedious process? I don't think so.

I totally agree with you.

If all the GAs knew that it wasn't true, given that there've been HUNDREDS of GAs over the years, you'd think at least ONE of them would have said something...

I think most of them believe, and the ones that don't believe just pretend to everybody that they do so as to not cause any drama (like many mormons do).

Imagine how traumatic it would be, being a truly 100% believing mormon for your entire life, many decades, then getting called as a GA, then getting told "By the way, the church isn't true, but you need to make the members think it is true". Even though when you get called as a GA you get lots of money, I'm sure there would have been some who said they wouldn't put up with it.

Most of the people that get called as GAs are very rich in the first place. It's not like they NEED the money they church gives them.

Note to self: re-read "The Emperor's New Clothes"

The LDS corporation raises individuals to the highest levels by raising their families to prominence. This includes giving extended families financial opportunities. The LDS corporation has a segregated information system for those financial procedures that involve families of LDS royalty, and another system that tracks fraud among the "common" business partners they work with.

If an apostle were to ever get a conscience, his family reputation would be ruined, and he would be declared mentally imbalanced by the rest. His family would not recover financially.

Dieter is the only original UT outsider, and he became a UT outsider long before he was called to the Q12. You won't likely see an apostle called that cannot be carefully groomed through family business involvement.

At the COB, only a dozen or two people know about the separate financial tracking systems.

you should post about this as a separate topic.. it is something more people should hear about.

very interesting

I don't think it is that simple - it's about more than just money, there is also the power and prestige of the position, plus stepping down wouldn't affect just the lives of the GA and his wife. Due to nepotism and inbreeding within big-name mormon families, numerous people closest to the GA would experience an immediate financial hit and social downgrade. They would lose the benefits of being able to name-drop and there would be concerns about the eternal family being torn apart. It's extremely difficult for the average person to openly leave when most of their relatives are TBM - attaining a position of status would make it even harder to leave in a public manner.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/08/2014 04:34PM by Plaid n Paisley.

That's the carrot approach to incentivization.

There is also the stick approach.

Maybe Mormons don't turn the light off on participation in their Church because of the phallic nature of the light switch. Too oogy for some of them. Dimmer switch is in order then.

Instructions.

Push off. Push on. Dim on. Dim off.

"A few million" would be like offering a cocaine addict a doobie to get him to quit cocaine.

The big15 probably get a least that much each in compensation every year in the travel, wardrobe, housing, health care, tuition to YBU for family. That doesn't even touch on the real reason they are there: POWER and adoration

They enjoy the power that they have over the mormon faithful. They enjoy the rockstar status they receive from the members. They get there because they have a personality type that thrives on that environment. The 70 secretly hope they one day get the call to the Big15.

I don't think it's a good idea at all. It seems too morally wrong. It effectively equates to bribery. If one is after truth, then that truth should be obtained and revealed by honest and ethical means. It doesn't really help the cause of truth to engage in such an action. This applies for any truth and not just the purported "truth" being referred to on this thread. If the leader in question is so unethical as to be driven by money and he happens to be swayed into action by receiving money, that same leader could just as easily be swayed into another direction by being offered even more money. And in any case if it becomes known that this truth was obtained in exchange for money, then however valid or truthful the claim of truth obtained by it may be, it would not be taken nearly as seriously as if it were obtained by more ethical means, since it would effectively be seen as a case of receiving funds by bribery in exchange for spilling secrets or making dirty claims. It could also backfire. Those who don't believe in that truth would simply brush it aside as a lie that was told under pressure with bribery. And it just simply doesn't offer good publicity to the cause of truth. It's bad on every level and should not even be tried.

I am applauding this answer. Beautiful.

And TBM's state that those that leave are morally corrupt and will live ugly lives. Your reasoning is great.

Scientology is famous for video-taping their adherent's "confessions" er "personal audit sessions" which are easily held over the head of anyone who might reveal "too much" about Scientology to the outside world. Those, and records of any snitching made against them that they probably have no idea about. Which probably happens in Mormonism too?

What I've learned so far about leaving Mormonism is that it's like trying to graciously walk away from a tar pit.

@anoninsider .... wow, had no idea! if only a credible news agency could do some investigative reporting...if only...

@Happy Hare Krishna I don't think this is a bribe...the definition of a bribe could be broad to some, such as lobbying equating to bribes, but I don't see how this is illegal...or unethical, as this would be transparent...there are many more unethical things such as MLMs...

For me, this is more of a matter of finding truth and understanding more rather than getting people to dissent, while also allowing others to know the truth

If the GAs know their fraud, they should have the courage to do this regardless, but some struggling with this might find a little extra incentive to be a whistle blower

I do not think any bribing scheme will work.

What may work is pressure from inside the GAs family to expose the truth.

This is possible since many of the GAs do have independent wealth.

It may also happen as family pressure may intensify as LDS Inc remains so anti LGBT.

Additionally there is the other issue of one of the GAs being caught with a hooker, or some bad financial dealing that would expose LDS Inc to some unsavory PR. LDS Inc would dump the GA and an opening would emerge for a tell all book deal.

Additionally, and probably most promising, is the idea of a LDS "Edward Snowden" releasing confidential insider info via wikileaks or something similar. This is do able and we may see it.

@deco

a snowden would be perfect...time will tell

To borrow a well-known phrase from Will Rogers: "The Mormon church has the best leaders money can buy."

The very fact that they were paid to leave would be all the members need to dismiss anything they say. They’d just see it as Satan working extra hard on the lard’s anointed.