Random thought. Old friend of mine from my LDS days makes odd comments about how he is "still married to his wife" as if he deserves a prize for longevity.

I realized something BIG. He has not once mentioned that he is HAPPY in his marriage. He mentions she is beautiful, but never any other attributes other than her cooking. She used to have a blog years ago that mentioned many wonderful things about him, but never that she was HAPPY.

I have rarely met couples in ChurchInc. that expressed they are happy in their marriage and feel "blessed" by the spouse/marriage.

If you get any inkling about the state of their relationship it is that they are doing the "right thing" in the church's eyes/standards.

I had the feeling years ago in my youth that most married couples were happy because they had a Temple Marriage, but not because of THIS PERSON who is my spouse!

I know my ex faked being happy for years. He would put me on great display as his "beautiful wife" to the ward. His arm around me, all smiles, holding my hand and playing the role of doting husband. (It made other wives jealous)

When we got home, that play-acting changed. I would be picked apart and told everything I did wrong. The first time I refused to play act with him in public he went ballistic after church. I felt like I was hired to play a role as wife.

Many of the LDS wives I was close to, told me many stories of how they "played the angel" for the hubby who was cruel behind closed doors. They were SO unhappy and longed for a companion that treated them like a real equal.

Now, looking back at my friend who is commenting on his marriage of 20+ yrs and how sad it was that others divorce for reasons that could possibly be fixed (Ahem, Dude you never even once asked me what happened! Do not assume! A husband smacking a wife around for discipline is NOT acceptable in any circumstance!)

Longevity in marriage is NOT necessarily a happy marriage!
I cringe when this friend states how he and his wife were never able to have children, but he loves her anyway.

Those words just should NOT go together. Love her anyway? Like you are DOING HER A FAVOR? I noticed she stopped talking about her marriage years ago. Blog closed. Only LDS public functions of pictures with the two of them together.

Dude, it is not a blessing to put your wife only in the picture to make OTHERS feel like all is well in Zion.

I feel sorry for her and so many of the other people that married just to put the image out to the LDS world that they are marriageable, Temple Worthy, etc.

Now that I am dating someone who treats me so well in a healthy, committed relationship...I know the difference.

I do not need a ring to show to the world..LOOK IM SPECIAL. He makes me feel that every day!

We will take the HAPPY over IMAGE any day.

RMM

I think a lot of them are content, but most are just tolerating each other. And they want kudos for still being married. Especially the women--like what else were they going to do? Very few of them could have made it on their own. I really can't think of more than a couple of older mormon couples I've known over the years whose relationship I would want to have. And the ones I can think of are not people I'd want to have as a partner, but what they had/have together seemed to be really good.

Then I left the church and have a completely different social circle and guess what? I know a whole lot more long-married couples whose relationships I envy. So now I know it happens and those kinds of relationships exist. But still, they are the exception and not the rule of older marriages. Not enough yet to make me want to have someone around all the time again and interrupting my life or having to work around them. Once you figure out that you're not going to go to Hell if you have sexual relations with someone to whom you are not legally and lawfully wedded, your reasons for getting marry change DRASTICALLY from when you were mormon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2014 10:43AM by NormaRae.

Good post OP. My TBM aunt and uncle have a loveless marriage. They have even admitted they are just friends that like to hang out. I guess that's better than being lonely?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2014 10:44AM by Tupperwhere.

There are plenty of marriages that stay together out of convenience and not everyone is LDS. My problem with LDS people is they used to brag about temple marriage and how much better they are over civil marriage. Now the rate of divorce is just as high and I don't see the benefit. Plus it's not cheap either as you must pay your tithing in order to get into the building. So, why bother? It doesn't guarantee anything anymore.
TBM's divorce now more than ever and I don't have many friends who haven't suffered from the marriage experience or remained faithful while married. Great church!

I don't see the benefit either. Staying married BECAUSE you were married in a temple has to be the worst though. There is no excuse for keeping it going if it's already bad.

I can't imagine how dreary it must be to believe oneself married for all time and eternity to someone you no longer love or respect. How do TBMs in this type of marriage reconcile their current unhappiness and dissatisfaction with an eternal future with someone, if they are honest with themselves, they really don't like?

I don't know how they do it. I have been married and divorced twice. When I am unhappy, I am OUT of there. It would suck big time to feel obligated to keep shit together.

I'd say my wife and I were very happy until I let her know of my disbelief. My wife would frequently mention that all her girlfriends ever did was complain about their husbands. Her friends would be amazed when she told them that I help cook, clean, wake up with kids, compliment her, etc... She would often say that I was the ideal husband and tell me how lucky she felt to have me.

Some of that changed when I told her how I felt about the church. Now she wonders why I can't be more like the "worthy priesthood holders" up the street...the same guys whose wives constantly complain about them. She complains if I don't initiate family home evening, family prayer, etc... We both lost a bit of respect for each other. I don't respect her willful ignorance, and she doesn't respect my new beliefs. We've gotten to the point where we just ignore the topic. I'd still say we're happy for the most part, but it's a pretty big elephant in the room.

If you had asked me two weeks ago who was the happiest married couple in my old ward, I would have said "Bobby" and "Becky." But a few days ago, my daughter (who is best friends with their 15-year-old "Samantha") came upon DH and I kissing and said "Eww - why can't you guys be like Bobby and Becky? Samantha said she has never once seen her parents kiss." That shocked me - I know different couples have different levels of PDA in their relationship but for your child to never have seen you kissing in 15 years seems extreme. It made me wonder what their marriage is really like behind closed doors.

More telling, perhaps, is listening carefully when talking to Mormons. I've always had a lot of guy friends and as we all know, once you marry any member of the opposite sex is a shameful temptation (sarcasm alert). So when I talked to guys at church I'd say something about their wives like "Hey, I hear your wife is running in the 5K this weekend" or "How is your wife liking the cooking class she's taking at the community college" or "I heard your wife is looking for a new job." Almost invariably, this was news to the guy I was talking to. DH and I have a marriage that is anything but easy but we always know what the other is doing and always talk about everything. Not in a micromanage sort of way but I know that today, if I don't see DH, he's off helping his mom install a swingset in her backyard or getting stuff for the treehouse he's building in our backyard. Mormons tend to live parallel lives, like stage actors who play their roles well when "on stage" but don't pay much attention to what the other gets up to when they aren't performing.

I've also heard a lot of Mormons make snarky comments about their spouses behind their backs. A lot of people probably do that but like someone said, Mormons claim to have these superior, happy marriages but actions speak louder than words and if you watch them, their marriages aren't better but are often considerably worse than others. I think it's because they marry each other for all the wrong reasons (sex, temple marriage, fear of being an old maid) rather than true compatibility. They have way too high of expectations of what they are entitled to in marriage. And when those expectations are not met, they feel they can't leave but have to keep up appearances. It's a toxic combination, not likely to succeed. That it sometimes does succeed and bring happiness is amazing. But it's no surprise that most Mo-marriages in my age group (40s) seem to have an underlying unhappiness or indifference that makes the answer to the OPs questions an undeniable "NO."

" but we always know what the other is doing and always talk about everything"

oh yeah, this drives me nuts with my TBM brother and his wife

i talk to my brother quite a bit

i also talk with my SIL quite a bit

but i often get into the awkward situation of assuming that the one i am currently talking to knows what the other one already told me

it's unreal

I don't think that for someone to be happy they must declare that they are happy. Constantly talking about, or writing a blog about how great a spouse might be is a very good indicator of happiness.

In my experience I've met many happy Mormon couples and I've many more unhappy ones. I'd assume that most people have had this experience as well.

That being said, when I was married to a TBM, we weren't happy and it was 100% without a doubt because we were both Mormon.

I think a lot of peoples marriage whether LDS or not suffer from similar issues. It seems a lot of married people put on a good show in public, but in private are really struggling. Marriage can be difficult. It is not easy to live up to all of society's expectations, especially in a Mormon society. I do like the direction that society is heading though. In being more accepting of relationships that don't require marriage and in people that have divorced. It would be great if we could all be more open, honest, and loving toward all.

IMO mormons as a group have worse marriages and are less happy than they could be. My reasons are:

1. They frequently marry far too early and far too young. Imagine how much you changed from when you were 18 to when you were 22!

2. My years of leadership access to inside information convinced me (from experiences over more than a few wards) that there are very few "perfect" families and far more where there are significant intractable problems. The ratio in my experience of well-balanced healthy marriage relationships to deeply dysfunctional and troubled ones was about 20% - 80%, again just my own view.

3. Conservative groups that share a common ethic discouraging divorce tend to have a lower divorce rate than average. The fact that the divorce rate of mormons is about average suggests that there are many unhappy marriages.

I've dated a number of LDS wives (after they divorced of course) and I agree with NormaRae they report having been content, but when you drill down with a few questions I think they were mostly just tolerating each other. Divorce or the idea of approaching empty nest seems to wake many of them from their Pollyana sleep and as they look back it's seem to have been mostly a parallel play type of companionship. They seem unusually nieve when it comes to closeness, intimacy, good sex and sometimes even PDA. They are some of the worst kissers I've ever dated, honestly High School was better so what could have been going on in their marriages? But in spite of these dating experiences I have meet a few LDS couples who seem to have very fulfilling and loving relationships.

I wouldn't know for sure, but it seems like there is a mentality that only LDS couples have strong lasting marriages. Everyone outside the church has sham marriages, ready to crumble at the first breeze.

A friend of mine got married a year before graduating from college and she just crowed about it, like it was the ultimate acheivement. She even rubbed the other, married students on our crew the wrong way. They even approached me and asked me what her deal was. And when she got pregnant within the first year it got even worse because none of the other marrieds had kids yet, they were actually family planning (smart kids!).

So, yeah, I think Mormons think they have the corner on "happy" marriages whether they are actually happy in their marriages or not. They'll make sure others know they have this eternal marriage, neener neener, boo boo.

I wonder if it causes them any cog dis to see atheists and ex-Mormons in wonderful marriages, without the temple, without the gospel, without God. And to the OP, even seeing happy relationships without marriage must drive them crazy. Anyone who is blessed with a happy relationship is lucky indeed. I am so happy for you and your good fortune. It must be like night and day.

When you go to sacrament meeting (if you still do), sit at the back and look at the married couples in front of you. I hardly ever see a man put his arm around his wife, or hold her hand. My guess is that the majority are not happily married. They are "enduring" the situation.

Interesting observation! I remember one couple who obviously loved to sit together and I've seen several women caress the back of their DH's neck but I don't recall any men showing PDA for their wives except suspect syrupy sweet comments from the podium during testimony meeting. What about the rest?

I constantly had my arm around my exwife during sacrament meeting. When I didn't have my arm around here, I was scratching her back (or her mine). Her and I held hands quite a bit. The PDA was overwhelming.

Not all people who are happy hold hands and not all people who are unhappy avoid PDA.

I am blissfully happy in my marriage of 41 years to my sweet Catholic wife....we were meant for each other...I used to see lots of couples when I was in church as a kid that didn't look like they enjoyed a happy minute as a couple.

Ron Burr

I just love Catholics. Should have been one I guess??

Many are, many are not - just like outside of the church.

BUT the facade that all are happy BECAUSE of the gospel is patently false. Just last week a friend mentioned that 'happily married' TBM couple of nearly 40 years are at the brink of relationship breakdown.

He has spent years in Bishop/Stake Pres callings from his mid-20's onwards and she has done Stake RS pres and every major female ward calling etc.... They've raised a large family, served diligently in every calling, attended every meeting....and as their kids now leave the nest, only now are they starting to realise that the years of intense busy-ness and church service have left their own relationship completely malnourished.

They've simply not had the time to develop any interests or friendships outside of the church. TSCC has sadly chewed them up during the best years of their lives and will shortly spit them out again with no regards.

We've been happily married now for 9 years, which isn't bad out of 25! lol!

I was thinking about this just the other day. I know some LDS couples who have solid marriages and are happy. But, as I compare the non-LDS couples, with the LDS couples I know it was surprising to find that the non-LDS "happy" couples were more numerous than the LDS.

I know of one LDS couple who are in their late 60's early 70's who openly talk about living on different sides of the house, and visiting thier grandchildren at different times so they do not have to be together. They are obsessed with thier church callings and making sure the grandkids are raised in the cult.

I know of another wherein the husband has suffered through his wife's food issues (Anorexia & Bulimia). She ignores the children, and takes SSRI and Benzodiapine medication between binging and purging. The husbands parents (non LDS) have pretty much raised the children with him. She holds a temple recommend, and he just smiles through it all and enables her disorder by ignoring its effects on the kids and everyone else.

You know... Mormonism teaches people to not develop qualities, but only to be obedient. You don't have to be kind, just be obedient. You don't have to have empathy, just be obedient. You don't have to be supportive, just be obedient. We talk all the time about how TBMs are super shallow and are mostly only about superficial appearances, right?

So why would they be A) looking for qualities in their mates? B) acknowledge whatever qualities their mates have, or C) strive to develop qualities of their own in order to be a good mate? There's no call for personal development within mormonism, and nobody ever says jacksquat about personal development for the sake of being a better partner or a better parent. The ONLY thing mormons are supposed to do is be obedient.

Men are for providing money and women are for providing babies, and both of those are examples of obedience. That's why the men talked about in this thread haven't ever said anything like, "my wife is so awesome with budgeting," or "my husband is so supportive of my goals..." They don't even know what each other is good at, they have no idea how to support another person. All they know is obedience.

What an empty, shell of a life. I'm so glad I'm out.

One of my biggest eye opening moments was meeting my nevermo inlaws and seeing just how good of people and happy they were. Wait they drink, don't go to church, and they are happy? That wasn't the narrative I had been taught.

Let's be honest -- marriage is a tough gig -- period.

Regarding the posting, I can honestly say that I see some happy LDS marriages out there. So, in my opinion, they can and do exist.

However, the notion that LDS marriages are happier than non-LDS marriages is a myth that TSCC wants to perpetuate for PR reasons.

LDS marriages have some pros and cons but I highly doubt that LDS marriages are happier than those marriages of the general population. Again, there are always exceptions to the rule.

That's how I see it.

As far as PDA or lack of PDA being an indicator, I'm not buying it. My wife and I are not big in the PDA department. To us, we don't feel the need to be constantly all touchy feely with each other. Some display is okay. But if we can't keep our hands off each other and people get the impression that we are going to bang the sh*t out of each other on the sacrament table right then and there, then that's a problem. There's a time and place for that. It's kinda like a thumpin' car stereo at a red-light. The only one who thinks it's cool is the idiot with the stereo, the rest of the people all think he's a douche.

Now, is our sex life good? Hell yeah! Are we prudes? Hell no! Are we happy? Yeah, we are. Both of us choose to stay together because we generally like and enjoy each other. Life is richer experience together, despite my being an ex-mo and her being a TBM.

If you can't tell the difference between honest displays of affection and the way teenagers slobber all over each other to impress their friends, then I would say that's a problem in and of itself. Married couples do vary in their PDA's - some of the people who are seen pawing and stroking their spouses to excess in Sacrament meeting shows a teenager mentality right there. But most adults who are in synch with their partner naturally are comfortable with a hand on the shoulder or back, lean toward each other while talking, hold hands and most definitely, are OK with being seen kissing by their own children. Even if they don't want to kiss in front of everyone, in the privacy of their own home if they are never caught kissing, that's suggestive of some sort of hang up about showing affection.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2014 01:31AM by CA girl.

CA girl, I agree with you totally. The level of PDA I'm talking about is the level in excess on the teenage mentality spectrum. I've seen more of it from adults in church than I have from teenagers. It reminds me of this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbDNU0-N7Ig

Bwahaha!

The success of an LDS marriage has a direct correlation to the 6" long thing in the husbands pants...the Checkbook!!

bigger the better the more longevity in the marriage.
Just sayin'... after all you were promised all that prosperity and hap-penis when you joined the TSCC

Ask me how I know... about the checkbook that is**

One of my best friends in this ward did not like her husband. She is about 80. He died 18 months ago. They had 11 children. She does look like she has worked herself to death. She did think of leaving him in the few years before his death.

A family member has an absolute ass for a husband. I don't know how she stands it.

Every time I "mourn" the fact that I don't have an intact family for my kids, I try to remember the miserable Mormon marriages I've seen and realize it could have been worse.

Like Dr. Phil said "Better to be from a broken home than IN a broken home." For the record though, I hate the term broken home. It's not broken if it's working - no matter who is counted a part of the family in question.

I think there are a lot of Married mormons who are enduring to the end.

madalice Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think there are a lot of Married mormons who are
> enduring to the end.

Yeah......

...except that if you are a believing Mormon, it is NOT the end......it is the beginning of the rest of ALL ETERNITY!!!!!!!!!

This "forever family" stuff is one of the most frightening religious concepts I have ever heard about, because if it were true, and if it were MY family, there are certain people (the serial child molester who pimped his kids---both genders---to his male friends, two generations back...and the horrible psycho wife-and-child beater a generation before him...plus all of the slaveowners I was always being told to be SO PROUD of being descended from...among a few others I also know about)...

...who would EVER want to spend literal ETERNITY with these people???

I think they married In a different narrative.
I think they were happy that they are married

I do not know if their narrative encourages allows or facilitates for them to know if they are happy individually, (its called selfishness in that narrative)

you'd have to change the paradigm & see if they are happy individually

happy individuals have happy patterns of actions thoughts plans statements stories that act on and re enact happiness

I was thinking about this a few days ago. A couple that I knew, that I thought had a great marriage divorced. I was shocked. They always went to the temple, did HT, VT at 100%, raised kids, were basically the perfect Mormon couple.
In a bad Mormon marriage there are ways to "hide" and never be home and others will think you are so spiritual.
One can go to the temple a lot, take on more and more HT and VT, do genealogy, say yes to all callings,etc. Because of untrained clergy(and because the leaders are from the ward), they will not and won't see the signs. In fact it will be encouraged.
I remember listening to a preacher being interviewed a few years ago and he said he never worries about the people who say no. He worries about the people who say yes all the time.

"All I need is a piece of white bread and a glass of water for dipping."
--Ned Flanders

Happy with TSCC in their bedroom / rest of their lives?

I don't understand how or why

Further thoughts after reading responses.

On regarding if couples should declare openly "I am happy?".
No, I do not expect a spouse to make a declaration, but I find it really disturbing that a TBM spouse will fixate on their partners good looks, spirituality, homemaking, breadwinning, etc, But little to nothing else about their FEELINGS.

It strikes me odd that that same spouse in engagement days will go on and on about how they had a FEELING about the spirit leading them so this person, they had a FEELING about how they were meant to be their forever spouse, but they never publically declare any FEELINGS for their SPOUSE. It is all about the church first!

On regarding marriage is hard. Yep, not for wussies and totally agree there that whether or not a couple is in CHURCHINC. That there are many couples that marry for the wrong reasons and fail because there is no genuine compatibility.

I totally agree that marriage is NOT for everyone and some people should remain permanently single. I also feel some people are NOT meant to be parents.

I do not think that public verbal affirmation or PDA is a key indicator of marriage happiness, but I DO believe that totally affectionless couple is NOT healthy. My BF is not a gun-ho PDA person either, but he does hold my hand, give me public pecks, and his body language always says "I adore my woman" even if he does not SAY it or have his hands on me.

I just think way too many Mormons stay together for the sake of the church and put on a good show. As someone mentioned earlier, many LDS believe they have the Market corner on "Happy" and that somehow Temple marriages are just bound to be happier than Non Temple or Non LDS marriages.

I had this same attitude for years! I was so manipulated to feel that anything OTHER than a Temple Marriage would be miserable. The happiest marriage I ever saw was between a lesbian couple I befriended. I was jealous over their bond. They were not publically affectionate, they did not verbalize "Gee I really love you, you make me happy, or I am so lucky to have you."

They had a deep level of protection and respect for each other than their life together.

When I reflect on my past LDS marriage, I realize there was NOTHING I could do to make it better/happy if I were NOT Mormon. Mormonism was the dealbreaker for my ex. I felt that I did a "bait and switch" on him 12 years into the marriage.

My faith had nothing to do with HIM. It was a personal choice before my marriage and I naively thought my ex loved me for ME.
Nope, I had a church stamp of approval, and I was just the young virginal bride on the shelf he purchased for his eternal life. Once I was no longer church approved, I was no longer a wife in his eyes. (How many times did I hear "You are not worthy of ME anymore" or "You are not worth my kindness now that you have fallen"??)

I went into my marriage with little relationship experience and thought I really was doing the right thing for the right reasons. I was focused on what was right for us and had NO clue how deeply ChurchInc. played a role in our lives at that time.

Now that I am in a new serious relationship, I reflect and hesitate a lot..yes, my Bf tells me I overthink everything, but he understands why. He knows what I went through. He just holds me and says "These are new times, ok?"

I made peace with my Mormon past, but not entirely with my LDS marriage. When I touch base with the LDS friend from my past, I realize how incredibly arrogant he has become. He is still by far one of the nicest LDS men around (and the women in his life fawn over him for such!) but I just feel sad to see him NOT HAPPY!

My bf and I talked about what it means to be Happy in a relationship. For him it is a state of mind; a choice. It is a state above his circumstances.

For me, it is peace and appreciation for "US".

Every couple has to work out what works for them, but in nutshell I have seen way too many LDS couples act like they have bondage chains instead of joy!

RMM