Below a conversation between DW and me.


Me: Since our grown son wants nothing to do with the Church and violates all its laws, then he will not be with us in the CK.

DW: He was Born Under the Covenant, so he is sealed to us forever, even though we don't fully understand the difficulties he is going through. So, it doesn't matter if he isn't active.

Me: Can you give me a scriptural reference for that?

DW: I have heard it said by leaders.

Me: Can you give me a reference? I was taught that a spot in the CK was contingent upon faithfulness.

DW: I know that he will be with us in the CK. I know it.

Me: Then I guess I will make it, too, regardless of what I do. You see, I was Born Under the Covenant, too.


Is my logic o.k.?

My teacher in the MTC randomly told us one day that being sealed basically means nothing.

Well he was right, of course... but he meant that children being sealed to parents wasn't going to mean those children go to the CK.

I think the church is kinda confused with Parent-Children sealings. Like they dont really seem to have a point or a reason. But people think a great deal of them so the church cant just get rid of it.

For me, this was the straw that broke the camel's back, er, should I say shelf.

This sealing business never made one lick of sense to me. Parents were sealed to their children, either by being BIC or getting sealed later. Yet, if the child wasn't worthy to get into the CK, then what was the point of the sealing. And what about down the line, what if other kids weren't sealed? Middle kingdom for them? How is that fair or makes sense? And how is it we (well men anyway) can be sealed to different women, like if you're first wife dies and you remarry. So in heaven you have two wives? Or do you choose the one you like better? And what about the 1st wife, what if she doesn't want a sister wife in heaven?

The mental gymnastics required to make it make sense is exhausting.

TSCC has always said that polygamy is an "eternal principle" and will be practiced in the CK. So yes, if a man is sealed to more than one woman, he will have multiple wives in the CK. I think he can also marry additional wives as well.

What the women want doesn't matter. Even in the CK it's a mans world.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2014 10:59AM by brett.

Women are indoctrinated to believe that their role in this life and the eternities is to be submissive and obey her husband. That will bring her the greatest joy in life, not following her own dreams. So, if she wants more, she is disobedient and needs to pay pray and obey more. after that, if she wants more, she is disobedient and needs to pay pray and obey more, if she wants more....and eternal circle

It only works if both the parents and children all pay tithing on the gross.

More families should start playing it safe and all aim for the Middle Kingdom.

I have met many people who were convinced they were going to the CK. Not a one of them worth talking to.

There is a promise to the "second annointed" that none of their progeny shall be lost. Baptism, gift of holy ghost, priesthood ordination, endowment and sealing are all conditional until one receives their second anointing.

I put Celestial Kingdom into Google Maps and nothing came up. If Google can't find it, it must not exist.

Bednar gave us further light and knowledge about that alleged sealing power. It was quite the subject of discussion here when it came out:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/faithful-parents-and-wayward-children-sustaining-hope-while-overcoming-misunderstanding?lang=eng

Highlight:
The statements by Joseph Smith and Orson F. Whitney are construed by some members of the Church to mean that wayward children unconditionally receive the blessings of salvation because of and through the faithfulness of parents. However, this interpretation is moderated by the fact that the most complete account of the Prophet’s sermon was not available to Church historians at the time they compiled an amalgamated version of his teachings from the notes of Willard Richards and William Clayton. In the more complete set of notes recorded by Howard and Martha Coray, Joseph Smith is shown to have qualified his statement to make the promised blessings conditional upon the obedience of the children:

“When a father and mother of a family have [been sealed], their children WHO HAVE NOT TRANSGRESSED are secured by the seal wherewith the Parents have been sealed. And this is the Oath of God unto our Father Abraham and this doctrine shall stand forever.” < my added CAPS to replace original italics >

This clarification is more consistent doctrinally. Except for the additional information contained in the Coray records, the concept of unconditional salvation for disobedient children would contradict many foundational teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, including the second article of faith that “men will be punished for their own sins” (Articles of Faith 1:2).

And yet Joseph Smith also said that Emma would be with him in the celestial kingdom even if he had to go to hell and back to get her.

(So even if she was trying to get away from him she couldn't :-P)

1. Joseph Smith apparently has reign over who goes to hell, not Jesus or HF

2. Mormonism doesn't really believe in hell, sorta, maybe.

3. The idea that the sealing saves the people, and not their own actions is represented in his statement above, along with his statement to Helen Mar Kimball that she and her whole family would receive exaltation just by being sealed to Joseph.

Try that one on for size (#3). OOOOHHH, I think you should bring that up in gospel doctrine class (and to your wife) and see how that goes!!!!!

It was just yesterday I read a quote by JS saying that if a child goes astray, the parents need not worry. If the child was BUC they would be sealed to parents for eternity, no matter what.

I think it was Hinkley who also said the same kind of thing.


I read that under a post by Elder Berry. The post about "Why you can't leave".



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/15/2014 09:12PM by madalice.

the definition of pure hell to me...

I know a woman who was VERY worried that her teenage daughter was behaving in such a way that the mother was worried her daughter wouldn't be with them in the CK. My first thought was, "my...you assume a lot don't you?"
I always thought the whole idea of different levels of heaven was idiotic. Like, if you're stuck in one of the levels below the CK and you try and sneak in the border guards would smite yer a$$...mightily??....kind of a Berlin Wall thing...

Ron Burr



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/16/2014 09:29AM by Lethbridge Reprobate.

Challenge any TBM on sealings of faithful parents to an apostate child and they melt down... at least the few times I've had the conversation.

"I know the church is true... I know the church is true... I know the church is true..."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man marry a wife according to my word, and they are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, according to mine appointment, and he or she shall commit any sin or transgression of the new and everlasting covenant whatever, and all manner of blasphemies, and if they commit no murder wherein they shed innocent blood, yet they shall come forth in the first resurrection, and enter into their exaltation;"

-D&C 132:26

-D&C 132:26 was Joseph Smith's "get out of jail free" card that he wrote for himself so that he could carry it around with himself at all times in his trouser pocket and yank it out to throw into the face of any disgruntled disciple who caught him in yet another act of his cronic hyprocrisy.

See what it says here? He demands, pointing to his own revelation, supposedly from god. Was I ordering an innocent person to be killed? No. No, the person I wanted dead said something offensive about god's annointed, and I'm god's annointed. How do you know? Because I said so, and you have no choice except to believe and obey me because I'm god's annointed.

So don't be telling Joe he ain't agoing to god's best heaven! Now, what was your daughter's name again?

I don't know that anyone has said that sealed children who go astray will be in the celestial kingdom because they are sealed. What they have said is that the sealing bonds will preserve the relationship. What I envision is that family who make it to the CK will be able to see those to whom they are sealed, talk with them, interact with them.

And by lds theology, members who are sitting around trying to game the system, instead of doing their personal best to live the commandments, aren't in the group that can access mercy in the atonement either.

Dear how about this,

Hang around. It will be very interesting to read your posts two or three years from now.

its like arguing about whether unicorn have 4 or 5 spirals in their horn. It it is all made up, who cares?