Nevermo here, but with lots of mo friends for years.

To a tee, almost all the Mormon guys I've known seem to be highly effeminate, or maybe a more apt term would be submissive, beta-male, etc. Even their physical features are rarely masculine these days.

If I didn't know better, I would think that most Mormon men I met were gay. In fact there were several that frequented parties thrown by one Mormon friend. One of the two was over the top flamboyantly gay (think Cam from "Modern Family"), they were both in singles ward for over a decade, and the two always came and left together as a pair. None of the Mormons seemed to notice it.

I have met some absolutely gorgeous women who are married to pudgy, pasty, pushover Mormon men. In many cases the women are the ones calling the shots, though the men seem to think they are.

Also what is the deal with the goatee on Mormon men? Is this the only acceptable Mormon facial hair today?

Sorry if this comes across the wrong way, but honestly I'm curious if any Mormons have any input on why a lot of Mormon men come across this way. It may be a simply regional thing, here in the greater Seattle area.

From a great memoir by Augusten Burroughs ("Dry"):

"And Rick sneaks looks at the waiter's crotch and I catch him every time. It is astonishingly satisfying to look at him and think, **Closet case**, and know he can read my mind as he looks away, flushed. All Mormons are gay, I believe. Rick is merely a further example." (p. 222)

For those not familiar with this author, Burroughs is gay himself, so the above passage shouldn't be interpreted as anti-gay. The colleague he's describing is an utter bastard to him, however.

Incidentally, I really recommend the book to anyone who's struggled with alcohol or other substance abuse issues...or who enjoys blackly funny, brilliant writing. Burrough's other books are great too.

Indeed, anything written by Augusten Burroughs is a must read, whether you're gay or straight.

As for Mormon men, what you perceive as "effeminate" is most likely their submissiveness.

Dry is a FANTASTIC book. I actually have a signed copy; I got to meet him when he came to speak at CU. He was so gracious. He spent 5 minutes talking to me even though there was a line.

As a *very* broad generality, I have to agree. The church exalts them on one hand & emasculates them on the other. It begins with teaching them their genitals are a source of evil.

Church broke = no balls

That wasn't my experience growing up. The Mormon guys were the ones that could both change the oil in their cars and take AP calculus.

That said, the long-standing suggestion in Mormonism is to have the mother be stay-at-home with the kids while the dad works. I can readily see how that would lead to pasty, not-in-shape men (sitting at the desk all day in order to provide for their women), while the women are generally better able to take care of themselves physically.

But, if I look at the list of TBM's I know, they're as physically active as the rest of the background population is. It could be confirmation / selection bias on your part, or a regional variation (most LDS in Seattle area are probably white-collar professional, which doesn't lend itself to exercise much).

many LDS men live in fear of wives wrath!

men want sex, women 'give it' to get "Love" + family, shiny cars, etc. Really, it's often a straight trade.

Oh; women enjoy the compliance-conformity enforced by tscc, it's comforting for Many of them (sorry to others).

that's 'just the way it is', not because I said so.

I see this a lot too. Luckily DH and I both love sex and have a give and take relationship.

when I inquired about a neighbor boy whom I thought might be gay, I was told by a TBM friend "no, he just acts effeminate because he is really close to Christ. He's always been very prayerful and meek"
Alrighty then! Or, he's just gay. Pesky "countenance" thing I guess.

Because meek, humble and submissive are traits prized in Mormonism. Individuality, independence and thinking for yourself, traits usually found in strongly masculine men, are not. It seems like the more manly men in Mormonism are sidelined and the pasty-faced, wimpy bullies get the leadership positions. Maybe Mormon leaders are as afraid of strong, independent men as they are of strong, independent women. So more submissive men get the leadership positions, making meek and effeminate seem like something to aspire to.

Just a guess. I've seen Mormon guys who are plenty masculine and others who are more effeminate than some of the gay guys I know. But I do think the leadership wants men they can bully and rewards them accordingly.

CaGirl Nailed it.

you did nail it CA Girl, but what baffles me is the super aggressive salesman personalities that are rewarded when they go on missions. It's like, ok, you raised me from primary to be meek, soft, gentle, and now I'm supposed to be the shamwow guy. So which one are you supposed to be? My own father falls into the effeminate category. His last wife ordered him around like a prisoner. She was BRUTAL. I can't believe he put up with her for 20 + years.

OP: Another Never Mo here (exposed by marriage to Mo culture). Didn't notice the goatees (there's a lot of those in the non-Mo community around here...but now that you mention it). But, I couldn't agree more with your observations. All the Mormon men I know are very milque-toasty, pudgy, pushovers, who cry at the podium during F&T Meeting right along with their pushy TBM wives. That said, as much as they come across as pu$$ies, many are very much bullies within their own Mormon circles. I did meet one senior missionary, a rancher, who came across like a real man.

Considering the number of stories here about Mormons being arrogant jerks who don't respect boundaries, which is it: submissive pushovers or arrogant jerks? Can't very well be both.

Unless, of course, there is some of each type in the group.

Who says it can't be both? I think it very well CAN be both. That's passive-aggressive, which Mormonism produces.

Pretty broad brush. I hate to see a subset of a population targeted with less than flattering characteristics. This subtle attack on Mormon men has been tried with many cultures and ethnic groups. It's not a good road to start on.

The Mormons have lots of faults that are low hanging fruit. Mr. mancat, you are better than this.

I thought the same at first, but I'm sorry, he has a point. It doesn't apply to EVERY Mormon man, but it does exist.

While I agree w.r.t. paibting with a broad brush, and I really try to avoid it, these ARE the characteristics of the Mormon men I know personally, and others that I have met through Mormon friends or when flying undercover at church activities with one mo friend. Even the missionaries that have come to my door have been this way, at least until they sent a couple cute girls who smiled but seemed genuinely terrified to talk to a non-Mormon guy of similar age.

Really you people.

"Effeminate, submissive, beta-male, pudgy, pasty, pushover..."

I guess now that there are several stereotyped gay characters on TV, oh, and you now know that one guy from work, you're in a position to know "what gay people are like?"

Ridiculous.

Did you ever consider that most gay men you encounter in your lives you don't recognize as gay because they don't fit your facile, old stereotypes?

Not being a Mormon and growing up in Seattle, I've had many close gay/bi friends over the years, and have a pretty well-tuned "gaydar" for a straighr guy.

Your type always THINKS he does...

I think you're mistaking my characterization of Mormon men as effeminate in many cases, as being the characteristics of gay men. Not my intention. Many Mormon guys do give off a certain vibe of questionable sexuality, which I'm sure has a lot to do with the teachings in church.

"your type" - thanks.

mancat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think you're mistaking my characterization of
> Mormon men as effeminate in many cases, as being
> the characteristics of gay men. Not my intention.

Really? Your words...

"To a tee, almost all the Mormon guys I've known seem to be highly effeminate, or maybe a more apt term would be submissive, beta-male, etc. Even their physical features are rarely masculine these days. If I didn't know better, I would think that most Mormon men I met were gay."

Even better, you end with...

> "your type" - thanks.

The irony that YOU'RE upset about being stereotyped is hysterical. Why the fuck do you think that I wouldn't resent it just as much?!

Typical straight dude...

...so are you hitting on me?

Took you long enough! :)

I've often wondered how much of it is due to self selection where the more aggressive type A, big Ts leave in their late teens and early 20s.

Men need to spit out the Mormon bit.

I struggle with male NOMs for this very reason. Grow a pair. Save yourself, save as much of your family as possible. They are in jeopardy and daiy, quiet crisis and it gets like an episode of Oprah sometimes.

Spit out the Mormon bit, with prejudice.

Mormon men are NOT effeminate!!! Just look at Elizabeth Smart's dad as an example. Ummm, wait a sec, let me think of another example.....

Bouncing up and down and clapping hands here in AGREEMENT.
OP is not saying all LDS men are gay. GAWD. Reread post.

YES! I have known LDS men for years that I was thought were exactly as you described.

I have known many good, beautiful women who were with spouses that I really thought were beneath them in many ways, but they had that LDS stamp of approval.

One of my dearest friends, married the wimpiest man. She told me before her marriage he was her "Dream". He was the typical blonde, blue-eyed, big LDS family, returned Missionary, Temple recommend holding Dream.

She got pregnant on her wedding night. Also her "Dream".
Three kids later, she was telling me she wanted a divorce.

She opened up, crying, and letting me know she was so disappointed with him. He was the biggest wimp, had no social skills, no home skills, was verbally abusive and in the lovemaking department- all he knew was where the penis goes.

So yeah, you CAN have an aggressive and EFFEMINANT man!

She eventually did what a lot of women do, she got counseling, lost weight, got a make-over, and joined some clubs that were meaningful to her. He accused her of having an affair.

I never knew what happened to her, because she stopped speaking to me when I left the LDS ChurchInc. But my heart still thinks of her and hopes she is happy.

OP is observing how "mismatched" some couples are I suspect. How do these smart, beautiful, well-rounded women get these wimpy guys? My theory is that ChurchInc. approval convinces these ladies that is all they need and the rest will come later.

On the flip side, I HAVE seen some very masculine males in the church who were viewed as sexual deviants. Why? I do not know?!
Is it a swagger? Pheremones? I think being sexually attracted to someone in the church is to be feared..and the one who brings it out of you is often the source of the problem.

Perhaps, some women choose effeminate partners, because they are seen as having more "control" sexually, when really they have less testosterone/drive? Just a thought.

Discuss.

RMM

"How do these smart, beautiful, well-rounded women get these wimpy guys?"

2 things jump out at me about this

I went to Ricks in the 90s and the male/female ratio was way out of balance - from what I hear most singles wards (whether attached to a college or not) have far more girls than guys that are marriage hungry - this gives those guys an advantage that they wouldn't have in real world dating

the other thing is that Mormon culture rewards a lot of that effeminate behavior - crying and speaking at church in that sing-songy voice - also, Mormonism is very effective at programing these girls to want certain kinds of status from a male (RM, heavily involved in church, important sounding callings, etc.)

I don't like painting with broad strokes, either, but after growing up in 'the mission field' these dating dynamics and the unusually high number of effeminate males pulling super hot chicks were painfully obvious to me during my college years in 'zion'

My good mo friend in the OP married a very nice girl who is on the jack side - doesn't care about a lot of the requirements of the church, and I suspect doesn't really believe, but continues on any way.

My friend is frankly a poor husband. He makes good money, but when he's home he's playing with toys (literally, video games, legos, erector sets, etc) and never helps with the house work, leaves their two kids to be raised by her, and rarely interacts with them.

I love their two year old son, and play with him like he was my own when we visit. He was one of the reasons I decided I wanted to have kids, once I learned that I was actually really good with them.

When he complained about being out of shape (he is a stick with some flab), I invited him to hit the track with me, and he showed up in jeans, loafers, a flannel shirt, and I presume his garments. Then he gave up after the second try because it was too hard.

My wife feels sorry for her and has even said, "she should've left the church and never married him." We'll never tell him that though, just like my wife will never tell him about how his good mormon wife smoked a few cigarettes and joints, and drank a few beers before they married.

I think - hypothesize that the Roles thing is a Large part of reasons MoMen 'only' want to be seen in their suits, whether $$$$ or Goodwill/DI or Armani.

book: Snakes In Suits.

http://www.amazon.com/Snakes-Suits-When-Psychopaths-Work/dp/0061147893/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1400348347&sr=8-1&keywords=snakes+suits

First, of course, that cults want their members to be submissive to authority.

Second, the fact that males who are successfully "broken" are perceived as feminine shows that patriarchy does the very same thing to women! Women are not naturally submissive. No one is! Whether male or female, submissive people are trained to be that way from birth.

It should be sad to see anyone in that condition, but we're so accustomed to women being treated that way that it seems normal, and we're only shocked by it when it happens to men.

If you object to men being trained to be obedient, you should object to the same thing being done to women. It doesn't matter whether it's a cult or the mainstream culture doing it. It's wrong in both cases.

I've felt this way for years. I first noticed it when running a half marathon in Utah. The women were running, the men were taking care of the kids. The women were tan and in shape, the men were pasty, overweight and wearing white dress shirts.

The missionaries I see now walking the streets tend to be pasty, overweight dough boy types. It is rare that I see a manly thin missionary. It is like the church has emasculated these guys.

I know why most mormon men are pasty, fat schlumps. They aren't allowed to go out and get a drink with the guys; they can't look at p0rn (good ones can't even see R-rated movies); and they have to work 3 jobs to provide for their 6 kids and 3000 square foot house so their wives can stay at home as full-time moms. Most of these men have no hobbies or interests outside of their wives, kids and church.

On top of that most LDS men have a calling that takes 10+ hours a week and which leaves them no time to do anything fun. When all their work buddies go to a sports bar to watch games and male bond, your typical LDS man is on his way to the meeetinghouse to do 3 hours of clerking and bishopric meetings. No wonder LDS men look like crap.

Looking back, from when I was a TBM, I realized I had zero male friends outside of the church. Since all of my male friends were LDS and in the same boat as me and I guess we all degenerated together into pale-white blobs. Add the fact that most of us are balding and that is why most LDS men look like a wimpy version of Shrek.

This is a good observation by mancat. It's something I noticed the first time I came to Happy Valley but never sat and processed it in my mind. CA girl is right when she says: "It seems like the more manly men in Mormonism are sidelined". I was alternatively stared at during sacrament meeting by married women or severely dissed for calling them on their crap. My wife calls most mormon men "Pencil Neck Geeks". Obviously, that is a gross generalization, but there is plenty of truth to it. I'm happy that my 4 boys will not be subject to the same emasculating cult abuse.

I think that Mormonism often emasculates males. It perceives many typical male behaviors as undesirable. Rowdiness, aggressiveness and independence often are discouraged by Mormon mothers. Mormon fathers are often beta-males and are more often than not “yes” men. Independent, thinking and self-confident men are not really welcome in Mormon communities, they often are seen to be a threat. The church discourages any sexuality, many young people now avoid ANY physical contact with the opposite sex until they are married, and this can’t help the situation. My grandfather always told me that by eighteen any self-respecting young man SHOULD have something good to confess to his Bishop about.

Most young Mormon men I know are always meek and subservient, they are very obedient and live very dull, unimaginative lives. They are married at about 22 to a twenty-year old girl that seems to have their balls in her purse.

Most Mormon Alpha-Male types seem to have vanished from church activity between eighteen and twenty-three. There really isn’t any room for them in church. I think the best example I can think of of this trend is several years ago, I attended my son-in-law’s graduation from Marine Corp. boot camp. Afterwards, the Church hosted a little bbq at the marina at the San Diego Marine Corp. Recruit Depot, the missionaries were there to do help out. There were about a half-dozen male missionaries, all were overweight, pasty and awkward looking, the young Marines were the exact opposite. The difference could not have been more stark.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/17/2014 03:00PM by whiskeytango.

Mormonism is a series of facades.
Being a Go Along to Get Along (sub) society, what the OP said definitely fits, to varying degrees.

O & btw... how many MoMen now change their own oil?

It's incredible how clueless many posters on this thread are to the irony of saying that Mormon makes seem "gay" because they are completely controlled by WOMEN!

Do you even think about what you are arguing here?

Not that many are making that argument. Most are simply making an observation that many Mormon males are exhibiting less than "normal" male traits. This does not at all mean they are "gay" simply that "normal" male behavior is discouraged. I think it is safe to say that many LDS men are controlled by women. The church gives women power by enforcing the view that a male is the sole breadwinner and is so overworked by church callings that he is unable to have much of a life to define his personality or who he really may be, and then enforcing the view that she must be placed on a "pedestal"...The church serves as an enforcer that keeps men in line and subservient to the church.

Mormonism is a raw deal for everybody male or female, child or adult, the bottom line is that the real power brokers are anybody in a leadership position of at least a Bishop. Everybody else is a worthless drone.

100% agree! Didn't really know why, but CAGirl nailed it: "Because meek, humble and submissive are traits prized in Mormonism. Individuality, independence and thinking for yourself, traits usually found in strongly masculine men, are not. It seems like the more manly men in Mormonism are sidelined and the pasty-faced, wimpy bullies get the leadership positions. Maybe Mormon leaders are as afraid of strong, independent men as they are of strong, independent women. So more submissive men get the leadership positions, making meek and effeminate seem like something to aspire to."

As much as people think men are controlling the women, the women are using the church to control the men too. The men are also being controlled and manipulated. I personally believe it's motivation for some women to stay in and keep their families in. It's the fear of 'what if he starts going out with the guys, drinking, etc'.