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Posted by: janeeliot ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 07:23PM

Or are they subhuman because they are Irish?

Glancing over some other threads on the serious and disturbing news article about approximately 800 bodies of children were found in a septic tank at a nunnery in Ireland, I was struck by the tone and lack of thoughtful analysis in many of the post. Many, too many, seemed eager to blame "Christianity" or to just get their hate on. While this might SEEM like perfect excuse to do that, I don't live in a world where getting your hate on is ever a good idea.

The thought -- if I might stretch the word and call it that -- was that simply because this happened at a nunnery, we could blame Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. And if you didn't want to go along with that program, and you honestly though this deserved more thought -- and perhaps more information -- well you were just as bad as a baby-killer yourself.

Wow -- is that response unhelpful.

And eating away at me as I read these threads was the realization that this also happened in Ireland. So can't we just -- by the same logic -- blame Irishness as well as Catholicism? This is an old, old stereotype, perhaps older than our own hatred of those of African descent. This hatred of the Irish -- which was -- ironically enough enforced by the urban legend they ate babies -- was what caused the English to withhold food from Ireland during the famine causing one of the greatest mass die-offs in modern history -- half the population of Ireland died at home or trying to flee. Take a moment and imagine half your family, half your friends dying -- when the neighbors could have helped -- but didn't -- because they considered you subhuman -- capable of eating babies -- or whatever.

And remember that in Ireland, Irishness is defined by -- religion. Those PROTESTANT Irish? They are human enough. It's only those CATHOLIC Irish who are subhuman -- an opinion many here still hold.

One poster shrieked this was (this isn't an exact quote) a state sponsored honor killing. Huh. Doesn't the state have to know it is happening for it to be state-sponsored? Just wondering. And doesn't someone's honor have to be avenged -- or whatever -- for it to be an honor killing? That happened when the mother dropped the infant at a nunnery door. Whose honor was upheld when an infant at a nunnery got substandard health care and consequently died young? I don't get it.

And I wonder how many shrieking posters oppose paying for the health care for the poor children in OUR society -- and how many children will die untimely deaths for the same reason those Irish children did -- which is like -- totally different, man. And OFF-TOPIC.

One way to assert the humanity of a group is to refuse to rip them out of all historic and universal perspective -- yet those who did so in this case where attacked. Huh. Why? It is important to understanding what really happened to put it in that perspective. As a matter of fact, whether it helps you ride your hobbyhorse of hatred of religion or not so much, unwanted children have presented societies with moral dilemmas since time immemorial. Infanticide was common in pre-historic societies, and in a few tribes still is. Then women figured out abortion seemed kinder -- than that and also kinder than bringing a child into a world where there was no food for her. Fortunately, that totally solved the problem! Now we've had a good laugh, let's move on.

Don't get me wrong. I think the Catholic Church is wrong wrong wrong about its tangled knot of teachings around sex, women, birth control, and abortion. I think there are daily small tragedies that do not grab our eye the way this has.

I also think Catholics for Choice are doing a much better job addressing that than this site. And that there is no excuse for dehumanizing anyone -- not even Catholic nuns. I think information is more important than childish ranting. So sue me. I think we should take a long, hard look at the culture we grew up in before we are quick to condemn others. You can read "Wake Up Little Suzy" if you think the Catholics in Ireland are the only ones who screwed this up, although it might not make you as comfortable and self-righteous as this board does.

http://www.amazon.com/Wake-Up-Little-Susie-Pregnancy/dp/041590448X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1402096873&sr=1-1&keywords=wake+up+little+susie+single+pregnancy+and+race+before+roe+v.+wade

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 07:42PM

Excellent and thoughtful. Kids in orphanages have never fared well even in America. I just read a book about modern Chinese orphanages where children are abandoned, if they are lucky enough not to be left in a ditch, and where care is substandard,uncaring, and where many die. It happens everywhere and it is wrong everywhere.Some posters may want to check out Shannon's story of how her daughters were treated in a Russian orphanage.I dont believe it was run by a religious organization and may well have been run by atheists left over from theSoviet Union.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 07:50PM

By the same token Mormonism had nothing to do with the mountain meadows massacre right?

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 07:53PM

Nobody said anything of the sort and I am through responding to you, RJ, MJ and others who twist my words. My meaning is clear for those who actually read it.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 07:58PM

Umm, if you look I was asking the OP, but I am still flattered

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Posted by: janeeliot ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 08:47PM

No, I didn't say anything of the sort. I said I wanted to put it in a global perspective of how a class of children are considered unwanted and how they are subsequently treated, and I wanted more information.

Perhaps those wishes are so reasonable they have to be twisted to be attacked. But isn't that what the Mormon Church does to those who ask questions?

They don't even know at this point how the children died or they came to be in the septic tank. It is all speculation. Not that we shouldn't start a lynching party on mere speculation. Witch burnings! Always a good idea! Let's get the torches and pitchforks!

Also I want a bit of perspective -- which would include our society. One of the theories is that the children died from inadequate medical care and malnutrition. Well, to be brutal, that happens in the U.S.A., and which children die and which ones live is hardly decided any more fairly than it was in Ireland. Such factors as income of the parents, language, skin color -- and yes, parents' marital status play into that.

Some children are treated unfairly -- and that is global and through time. There are harrowing stories aplenty. Read up on Canada's orphan trains -- or the fate of children born into American slavery.

Did Catholicism play a role? I am sure it did. But then it wasn't Catholicism that turned Romania's communist era into a much larger hellhole for women and children, now was it.

I won't burden you with the whole clip -- here is a small excerpt:

From 1979 to 1988, the number of abortions increased, save for a decline in 1984-1985.[4] Despite this, many unwanted children were born, as their parents could scarcely afford to care for the children they already had, and were subsequently abandoned in hospitals or orphanages. Some of these children were purposely given AIDS-infected transfusions in orphanages; others were trafficked internationally through adoption.[4] Those born in this period, especially between 1966 and 1972, are nicknamed the decreţei (singular decreţel), a word with a negative nuance due to the perceived mental and physical damage due to the risky pregnancies and failed illegal abortions.[7] Over 9,000 women died between 1965 and 1989 due to complications arising from illegal abortions.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Romania

But hey -- yeah -- let's pretend that CHRISTIANITY is the only problem women and children face -- because -- that lets you totally off the hook, doesn't it.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:00PM

And non mormons raided pioneer caravans, so hey Mormons are off the hook, right?

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Posted by: Old timer ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:00PM

Bona Dea and janeelliot might as well be the same person. They work as a tag team. Jane is Bona Dea's minime/+1 on any subject and they both consider themselves Catholic Crusaders. Bona Dea says she is not Catholic but she sure seems to jump to their defense and she will post about going to mass on occasion. They will always have to have the last word but a review of their posts tell the true story. So predictable. I knew as soon as this topic was brought up they would be here to defend again.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:10PM

Fine with me. I am just looking for a little logical consistency

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:36PM

We are not the same although we do know each other.AskSusan

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 08:26PM

But just to be clear, the OP said something exactly of the sort. In a previous thread he/she said this had nothing to do with religion

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Posted by: Free418years ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 08:01PM


Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 08:53PM by Free418years.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 08:33PM

http://feministire.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/no-country-for-young-women-honour-crimes-and-infanticide-in-ireland/


A blog by Stephanie Lord
===============================================================



"When I was in first year in secondary school in 1997, a girl in the year above me was pregnant. She was 14. The only people who I ever heard say anything negative about her were a group of older girls who wore their tiny feet “pro-life” pins on their uniforms with pride. They slagged her behind her back, and said she would be a bad mother. They positioned themselves as the morally superior ones who cared for the baby, but not the unmarried mother. They are the remnants of an Ireland, a quasi-clerical fascist state, that we’d like to believe is in the past, but still lingers on.

The news broke last week of a septic tank filled with the remains of 796 children and babies in Galway. The remains were accumulated from the years 1925 to 1961 and a common cause of death was malnutrition and preventable disease. The Bon Secours “Home” had housed thousands of unmarried mothers and their children down through the years. These women had violated the honour of their communities, by bringing shame on their families through “illegitimate” pregnancy and therefore had to be hidden at all costs, and punished for their transgressions. The children died as they lived, discarded like the refuse of society that the Church considered them and the mothers that gave birth to them to be. Most of the children who survived were put to work in industrial schools under the supervision of perverts and sadists.

Thousands of the healthy ones were sold abroad – mostly to the US – for “adoption.” For the ones who remained, the outlook was poor. Mortality rates of 50% or 60% were common in these homes. In the case of the ones that died, either the Church did not feel they were valuable enough to feed and care for, or they actively worked towards their death. The risk they posed to the social order by virtue of the circumstances of their conception and birth was too great to let go unchecked. These children certainly did not die for lack of money or resources on the Church’s part (they had an income from the children they sold), and the fewer children of this kind there were, the less threat there was to the church’s control over society.

If the Church had allowed them to grow up to be functioning adults in Irish society it would have ran the risk of demonstrating that the institution of marriage was not absolutely integral to the moral well-being of a person. Women were not allowed keep their babies because the shame that their existence brought upon the community would be far too great. They were imprisoned within Magdalene Laundries to atone for their sins of honour, and their babies were removed from them as part of their punishment – women who dishonoured the community were deemed to unfit to parent.

Contemporary Ireland feigned shock when stories of the Laundries and residential institutions emerged. Perhaps the shock of those who were too young to be threatened with being put in one for “acting up” was genuine, because the institutions started to close as the years went on. But people in their fifties and sixties now, will remember how the “Home Babies” sometimes came to schools, and were isolated by other (legitimate) children, and then sometimes never came back. While those school-children may not have comprehended fully the extent of what happened, their parents and teachers, and the community of adults surrounding them knew.

Ireland as a whole was complicit in the deaths of these children, and in the honour crimes against the women. They were the “illegitimate babies” born to the “fallen women” who literally disappeared from villages and towns across Ireland in to Magdalene Laundries. Everybody knew, but nobody said, “Honour must be restored. We must keep the family’s good name.”

The women themselves served a dual purpose in the Laundries. They were a warning to others what happened when you violated the rule of the Church, and they were financial assets engaged in hard labour on behalf of the Church. They were not waged workers; they did not receive payment. They could not leave of their own free will, and their families, for the most part, did not come for them; the shame on the family would be too great. Ireland had a structure it used to imprison women for being sexual beings, for being rape victims, for not being the pure idolised incubator for patriarchy, for not having enough feminine integrity, or for being simply too pretty for the local priest’s liking. Ireland has a long tradition of pathologising difference.

People did know what went on in those institutions. Their threat loomed large over the women of Ireland for decades. On rare occasions when people attempted to speak out, they were silenced, because the restoration of honour requires the complicity of the community. Fear of what other people will think of the family is embedded in Irish culture.

The concept of honour means different things in different cultures but a common thread is that it can be broken but restored through punishing those who break it. We are familiar with the hegemonic concepts of “honour killing” and “honour crimes” as a named form of violence against women in cultures other than ours. The papers tell us it is not something that people do in the West. Honour killings, and honour crimes are perpetually drawn along racialised lines and Irish and UK media happily present them within the context of a myth of moral superiority.

Honour crimes are acts of domestic violence, acts of punishment, by other individuals – sometimes family, sometimes authorities – for either real or perceived transgressions against the community code of honour. However, it is only when there is a woman wearing a hijaab or a the woman is a person of colour, or ethnicised, that “honour” is actually named as a motivation for the act of violence. It is a term that has been exoticised, but it is not the act itself or the location it occurs, but the motivation behind it that is important in defining it.

Women of colour, and Muslim women, are constructed as the “other;” we are told these women are given in marriage at a young age by controlling fathers who pass on the responsibility for controlling them to husbands. “Protection” of women is maintained through a rigid sytem of controlling their sexuality in a framework of honour and shame. When these women transgress the boundaries of acceptable femininity they are abused and shunned by their community. Punishments range from lashing to death, but include physical beatings, kidnappings and imprisonment.

Imprisoning women in the Magdalene Laundries deserves to be named as an honour crime because of a cultural obsession that believed the family’s good name rested upon a woman’s (perceived) sexual activity that either her father or husband or oldest brother was the caretaker of. Her sentence to the Laundry was to restore the family honour.

Recently a friend of mine tweeted when the verdict was returned in the murder trial of Robert Corbet. Corbet was convicted of murdering Aoife Phelan, a woman from Laois he had been seeing, who told him she was pregnant. He hit her, then strangled her, then fearing that she was not actually dead, he put a black bag over her head and fixed it with two cable ties and buried her in a barrel on the family homestead. The next day he got on a plane to New York to meet his ex-girlfriend to attempt to repair their relationship. My friend had outlined the case and on twitter referred to Robert Corbet attempting to have a “dirty weekend away” in New York.

Following this, my friend received unsolicited mail to her facebook account, from a person claiming to be the cousin of Robert Corbet’s ex-girlfriend saying: “….how dare you say a dirty weekend in new york and speak about my cousin who is his ex girlfriend like that . you don’t know what happened when he went over or why he went over you don’t know my cousin so how dare you say that it was a dirty weekend away.”

The point of mentioning this is certainly not to make anything of Corbet’s ex’s character or actions, but his intentions after he killed a woman, as well as the the mentality of the person who sent this mail. That message is a symptom of rural Ireland’s chronic obsession with shame and the keeping of a person’s “good name” at all costs; a stranger made a post on the internet about a man’s probable intentions after murdering a woman, and someone else’s immediate reaction is not to read what she said concerning the murder of a woman, but to attest to the moral purity of her cousin. There is something very wrong with that.

There was something wrong in Listowel when a parish priest gave a character reference for Danny Foley, a man convicted of sexual assault, whose victim was refused service afterwards in bars and shops. When the verdict was returned, fifty people (mostly middle-aged men) formed a queue in the courthouse to shake the hand of Danny Foley. Journalists happily took quotes from locals saying what a shame it was, as this wasn’t his character; he was a good man, from a good family. The victim did not matter. The priest said of her, “Well she has a child you know, and that doesn’t look good.” John B. Keane wouldn’t have batted an eyelid.

We have not come so far from the Magdalene Laundries. Robert Corbet initially lied to the guards about where he had buried Aoife Phelan because he “wanted to protect the family home place.” The need to keep the family name intact is embedded in Ireland so much, that there are even other women happy to be complicit with, and benefit from patriarchy. They are the girls in my school who wore their “pro-life” feet pins (one of them is now a doctor I am told). They are the women who shook Danny Foley’s hand. They are the women who condemn other women for doing things that would have landed them in a Magdalene Laundry a few decades earlier. Let nobody question their honour.

Irish culture has had a traditional focus on eradicating troublesome women and their offspring. For years unmarried pregnant women were punished and hidden away in homes. Women who need abortions travel in silence to have them in secret in England, or they have secret home abortions here. Government ministers actively engage in policies that make it more difficult to be a single mother, and to speak out against it is deemed immoral and not of value to the community. A person sending unsolicited emails to a person concerning a third party’s moral purity, and then publicly tweeting in relation to it demonstrates her own value to the community by positioning the importance of women’s role in public morality above that of the murder of an individual woman – a woman who was buried in a barrel to protect the family home.

We are told to be silent and not talk about things. Difference, and naming difference in Ireland is pathologised. Even those who are meant to be the good guys are not exempt from the cultural effect of this. Women when they are abused in activism or online are told not to retaliate. We are called “toxic and hostile” for having the audacity to name misogynist abuse where we see it. We get death threats for speaking out about abortion. But we are told to “be kind” at all costs. When people abuse victims of domestic violence online, we are told to leave their abusers alone. Women must never appear to be angry. We must be nice to those who abuse us. We must be always nice no matter the cost to us; we must not bring shame upon the community.

This is not so far away from the mentality that locked women up in homes and threw children in septic tanks to be forgotten. It absolutely depended on complicity of wider society. It could not have existed without the collaboration of the whole community; the teachers; the priests; the nuns; the people that ran the undertakers; the local councillors; the people who brought the laundry to the nuns; perhaps your grandmother who cuddled you to sleep at night.

We are told it was a different time, and things are different now.

Youth Defence still sell their pins online. Joan Burton continues her crusade to paint single mothers as lazy and worthless. National newspapers will freely print opinion pieces denigrating them. 796 dead children will get a memorial but no one will be held to account for their deaths. Those who ask for it will be told to be kind. The religious orders who put them in a septic tank will continue unquestioned. Those who put the women in Magdalene Laundries will continue to work for “fallen women”. Women will be denied control over their own bodies. They will die for the want of medical care.

It must be so. To do otherwise, would bring shame on the family. But when we look the other way, and allow the lie that we live in a modern progressive democracy to breathe, we allow our authoritarian Catholic past to continue to cast its shadow."

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:00PM

Dave the Atheist:

Two minds with but a single thought. :D

Excellent post...VERY well done.

Well deserved kudos to you. :)

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Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:12PM


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Posted by: Richard Foxe ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:29PM

Feel better by attacking someone else. Some pop therapist should can it (and then get canned himself).

Actually, it's an age-old technique: feel superior by finding inferiors--or framing them that way--and ragging on them. Only one (huge) problem with that approach, which may get you stoked in the short run. It's called reverse projection. The way you perceive others IS eventually the way you will perceive yourself. Not condoning bad behaviors, but seeing through them. We all have to get over the Fundamental Attribution Error (and its reverse, the Actor-Observer Bias), which explains others' bad behaviors in terms of qualities or internal traits instead of considering external factors (and the reverse for ourselves).

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:26PM

Yep, and then people are surprised when people who are the most vociferous against a particular topic are some of the worst offenders:

http://hatethechristiannotchrist.com/christians-be-cautious-list-of-disgraced-christian-leaders/

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Posted by: helemon ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:19PM

I somehow doubt that the daughters of the well to do members of the community were discarded in these laundries. This reeks of classism disguised as sexual shaming. It was a way for the church an upper classes to get rid of people in the lower classes. It was a way to justify enslaving people on the pretense that they deserve it and are worthless.

A recent study of slut shaming demonstrated that it has nothing to do with how much sex a girl is having, but is about policing class boundaries between the rich girls (who were actually having the most sex) and the poor girls (the "sluts").

http://www.asanet.org/documents/press/pdfs/SPQ_June_2014_Elizabeth_Armstrong_News_Release.pdf

It looks like the Catholic church was slut shaming these girls for their own power and benefit in contrast to what Christ said to the adulterous woman.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 08:46PM

There are far too many returns on these Google searches for me to even begin to try to pick out the "right" ones to quote, so--for an objective view--do Google searches for the following:

"how complicit was the Irish Catholic hierarchy, Magdalene laundries?"

"bon secours, how complicit was catholic hierarchy?"

--and/or--

"tuam, how complicit was catholic hierarchy?"

"pedophilia, Irish Catholic hierarchy"

Some of these returns will be from Catholic apologists (Catholic newspapers, etc.), others are non-Catholic Church publications, analysts, etc.

There is a particularly interesting return from:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057224185

This is evidently an Irish message board, and I quote:

4/06/2014 14:38 from: [poster] the culture of deference

Title: "TUAM childrens home, time to remove the Catholic church from existence"

[BEGIN QUOTE]
Today it was announced that there maybe at least 3 or 4 other similar mass children's graves.

Sean Ross Abbey in Tipperary was another: in the first year after it opened in 1930, 60 babies died out of a total of 120. Those who survived, meanwhile, were often sold abroad to childless couples.

Mary Lou McDonald SF said that similar graves could exist as "dozens" of mother and baby homes across the country. "As shocking as Tuam has been - and it is very, very harrowing - it's not an isolated incident at all.

Gerry Adams noted that the "vast majority of people didn't know" what went on these homes, adding that "the church hierarchy wasn't about liberation of souls - it was about control, about power."

...

"The Republic of Ireland has already published four major investigations into child abuse and its cover-up in Catholic parishes."

[END QUOTE FROM THIS MESSAGE BOARD]

There is far, far more available via Google searches on both the complicity of the Roman Catholic hierarchy and, as well, the complicity of the Church hierarchy with the Irish State (the federal government of Ireland).

To say that the responsibility stops at the heads of the various institutions which have been proven to be guilty of these crimes is disingenuous. Not only was the hierarchy of the Irish Catholic Church involved (all the way up the chain of authority), but so was the State of Ireland government itself.

Some of these articles (available via the Google searches) analyze how the aims of the various "mother and baby homes" (and institutions like the laundries) aided the Irish state in establishing behavioral controls of various types over all of its female citizens. Not only were the institutions themselves literally fearsome (for any Irish female, because just about ANY Irish female COULD be incarcerated in one of them for any number of specious reasons), they acted as "benign" external societal controls to keep Irish females in line with the norms prescribed by the Catholic Church and sought by the Irish government.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 08:48PM by tevai.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:02PM

The slow murder via neglect does not get your anger on, there is something wrong with you, not us.

Sorry, it is a major straw man to make anger into hate.

BTW, it was the article itself that laid the blame at the teaching of the Catholic Church, not us.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:17PM

When I hear you complaining about the murder through neglect in orphanages in the former Soviet Union or Red China, both of which were atheist run,you will have some credibility.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:20PM

When I hear you not supporting child rapists, you will have some credibility.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:39PM

Ha! But that has nothing to do with religion.

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Posted by: Tevai ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:26PM

The former Soviet Union, Red China, Romania...

They (and many other nations and areas like them) are all, effectively, beyond our grasp. They are, for the most part, separate worlds, and we have no more power to change what is going on there than we do right now in the countries where females are routinely (and brutally) genitally mutilated and raped to the point of fistulas RIGHT NOW...TODAY...THIS VERY MOMENT.

But Ireland...

Ireland is OUR (American) ancestry. After German, it is probably the second-most contributor to the DNA of most Americans (at least up to recent decades). The "Irishness" in us Americans, as a people, is overwhelming--even now, in the twenty-first century.

And Ireland is WESTERN Europe. It is one of the major contributors to what has become AMERICAN culture.

Ireland and the USA are apples to apples comparisons.

Ireland and the former Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China are apples to durian fruit...and most of us have NO influence on durian growers.

To discover that this has been going on, up until nearly the dawn of the twenty-first century, in a country which IS so much of so many of us is not just upsetting, it is shocking.

My maternal ancestors came largely from Ireland. I married two men who were both largely Irish in ancestry. This is US.

Can you not see the difference?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 09:27PM by tevai.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:38PM

Oh,please. Wrong is wrong whether we can do anything about it.or not

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Posted by: Nightingale ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:33PM

Me too with the Irish genes, as well as the Irish Catholic faith in the maternal line. Many Irish immigrants came to Canada as well as to America, looking for work and a better life. Ironically, many Irish workers are again flocking to Canada to find work in many of our robust industries.

Those are valid reasons why these topics arouse our interest. For me, a big part of it at first was shock and sorrow at all the abuse and loss of life but also that, contrary to my expectations, the faith (which I equated to admirable ideals) had not made people "better" (i.e, more loving) as indicated. In fact, it could well be argued that outsiders would have acted with more compassion. Disturbing - no? Surely our beliefs are open to examination when we (1) preach; (2) send out missionaries; (3) influence social policy; (4) engage in politics; and (5) otherwise interact with society outside the confines of our brand of belief.

As for discussing issues in places like North Korea or atrocities throughout human history perpetrated by atheists, that occasionally occurs or at least is referenced here. However, as the board is mainly devoted to a discussion of a particular Western faith, it makes perfect sense to me that topics related to that are of interest and within the confines of the purpose of the board. Being able to draw parallels between certain situations helps with understanding and healing, hopefully. Discussing North Korea will inevitably be political, Korea and politics both not being the main topics of concern here and the latter not even allowed, according to board rules. Discussing other religions is always considered on topic. We can discuss atheism to our heart's content, from my observations. But some threads are about certain situations related to Catholicism. It doesn't mean we are obsessed by it or give undue attention to it. Some threads are about atheism, some about Zoroastrianism. Some about resigning from Mormonism, some about hymns in Protestantism. And so it goes. No big mystery.

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Posted by: bona dea ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:44PM

Nobody brought up North Korea that I recall although I may have missed it. The countries under discussion were the Soviet Union and China and the subject was orphanages and how they are generally bad regardless of the religion or lack thereof of the administrators.As far as the ancient world, they were not atheist as you seemed to imply ,even if they werent Christian. The term is pagan.You may not think these subjects are relevant. I do

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:02PM

I know you are not responding to me but..these other atrocities have received considerable attention in the western press, blame has placed where blame is due. These are the results of disgusting totalitarian regimes, and sometimes the tyrants are rightfully executed. Wars, (cold wars, and proxy wars) have been conducted with these very atrocities used as justification. Why can't you just admit that Catholocism fucked up in this scenario?

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:09PM

Very true.

NOBODY here is blaming all theists for what the Catholics did in this case, we are blaming the Catholic Nuns and the Catholic church, the church's marginalizing these children because they came from single mothers being the major influence that set up this situation. Nobody is expanding this to all theists.

Bona is being intellectually dishonest to expand what the Soviet dictatorship did to reflect on all atheist or atheism.

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:49PM

Show me EXACTLY how Atheism played a role, other than the leader being atheist, in the deaths in the soviet union, then we can talk.

From the article that started all of this:"Conservative Catholic teaching at the time denied children of unmarried parents baptism and therefore burial in consecrated land." Direct reference to Catholic teaching that those babies were not valued. Lack of a baptism would have denied them a lot of chruch devices, leading directly to neglect. The article itself points out that those children were an out class because of the teachings of the CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Where is the DIRECT references to atheism in the deaths in the dictatorships you mention?

Do you get it, BONA, I am laying this at the foot of the Catholic church, NOT THEISTS. To try to act as if I am attacking all theist is just more of your intellectual DISHONESTY.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 10:59PM by MJ.

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Posted by: Dave the Atheist ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:08PM

Is this the "Atheists murder in the name of Atheism" strawman ?

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Posted by: MJ ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:11PM

I think it is the "There was an atheist involved somewhere, some how, so that means atheism is at fault" fallacy.

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Posted by: dk ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 09:34PM

Two books come to mind, "Half the Sky" by Nicholas D. Kristof & Sheryl WuDunn and "Unnatural Selection" by Mara Hvistendah. Both books talk about the plight of women around the world today. In patriarchal societies (regardless of religion) women are not valued. They're not people equal to men. Women are seen as property and/or a burden on a family.

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Posted by: janeeliot ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:16PM

Thanks for the many responses.

You might want to know a little about me -- or maybe not. Perhaps you prefer your assumption there, too.

I have a bad habit of toiling away on rather scholarly projects. Then I shoot myself in the foot, and they never see the light of day. I have a couple of masterpieces I am "painting." (Hints of eyes bluer than robin's eggs.)

One is the history of abortion in America looking at the rise of the Pro-life movement as a continuation of the Prohibition movement and both as modern witch hunts complete with power gained (and lost) and outbreaks of hysteria permitted. This isn't always popular, by the way, not even in feminist circles.

Of course I am a feminist. I went to the first meeting of a one of the original feminist groups in Salt Lake in 1969. What were YOU doing in 1969? Gee -- I so hope it wasn't passing the sacrament -- because I was so out of there. I have enough women's studies classes under my belt to minor (although I didn't).

Thanks for the info on the Magdalene laundries. I have known about it -- for -- I don't want to think. It makes me feel old and realize I never complete my work. When I found out about that I hope you weren't passing the sacrament. I know a great deal about the problems with Catholicism and women -- but also other problems for women. Have you read Mary Daley yet? No, I didn't think so. But thanks for thinking me in need of your instruction. Just a little sexist of you, but then when was the last time you passed the sacrament?

I am also puzzled how it applies here. It doesn't tell us what happened at the nunnery in question, and it does nothing to justify the ugliness of some of the posts. Actually -- nothing does.

Sexism comes in many forms. In one -- men are very eager to acknowledge it exits -- as long as it is OTHER men doing it. That is clearly going down here. I have no use for men who are not interested in figuring out their own contribution. That is the "new" sexism -- if it can deserve even that adjective. Another is to assume that all women are deeply in need of being enlightened about their history and oppression -- which can always be summed up by atheist men in one word -- religion. This does nothing to deal with the many sources of sexism and nothing to explain women's own experience with religion.

It might surprise some here to know that after she founded NOW, Pauli Murray went on to live her dream -- of becoming an Episcopal priest. She is now a saint in that church. Do I think she might know a little more about women, religion, oppression, and freedom than the posters on this thread? YA' THINK?!?!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 10:21PM by janeeliot.

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Posted by: ladell ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 10:21PM

I applaud your accomplishments

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Posted by: janeeliot ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:17PM

By the by -- the movie *The Magdalene Sisters* is good -- but very depressing. I also recommend 4 Months, 3 Weeks, and 2 Days, although that one is set in Romania and won't play into your obsession that ONLY religions are the problem. I also like such offbeat takes on the problem as *Gosford Park.* Sorry I can't explain how I think it ties in without something of a spoiler. Let's just say that there were many outcomes to unwanted pregnancies, right? And more than one potential tragedy here.

As I said, I have TWO unfinished masterpieces. The second is much less scholarly, but a bit embarrassing. Where the first is a labor of guilt and obligation, not completely unlike visiting teaching, the second is pure joy, like flying under your own power -- a novel that morphed into a four novel series. For reasons I can't easily explain, my four heroes, and they are heroes and not just "protagonists," are Catholic. I felt as though I just got stuck with that. I was in hot pursuit of cheekbones and romantic Gaelic names, and voila. I have always had complex feelings about this -- as coming out of Bountiful, Utah in the '50s and '60s I don't really know much about Catholicism -- or other religions period -- or maybe the whole world. In fact, I feel as though I know nothing. I happened to have a couple of lapsed Catholic friends and even an in-law, but really? First-hand?

So I had a friend who is also an editor, and she has an advanced degree from the top university for English in the United States. I asked her to read a few chapters. It made so much sense. She loves doing writing groups. Well, somehow, I had spaced off she WAS Catholic -- at least she was raised Catholic. She was embarrassed for me. I had never seen her blush before. She suggested as gently as she could that MAYBE I should write about Mormonism. I mean -- why was I even doing this!?! I couldn't explain about the cheekbones and the names, so I just sat there miserable.

Later I made a feeble attempt and bought Catholicism for Dummies. I tried. I really tried to make it through, but like the Book of Mormon, I knew I didn't have it in me. I was frantically emailing my friend, "How about this? Is this true?" And she would email me back "WHAT ARE YOU READING?! I HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT IN MY LIFE!" So if anyone wants to think I'm Catholic, you have no idea what a favor you are doing me! I have come to feel so much guilt about it -- and I can't stop myself because guilt seems so appropriate a response to the Catholic Church!

Anyway -- sometimes bona dea, who I know in real life, gets me to go to the local cathedral with her to take in a concert, and more rarely a mass. It seriously helps with my deep guilt in writing about something I know nothing about. And unlike some, I like religion as a source of art, ideas, and ritual. I don't believe -- but then I suspect many who actually belong don't either (nor do most of my characters).

I tell bona every once in a while she should join -- just because she seems to get something out it I don't and I believe in friends being supportive. I think everyone here would be shocked at her response. She starts in on how she hates the roles for women, how she has this rational reservation, how she has that rational reservation, and I have to admit I just say, "Hey -- so do the Catholics. You'll fit right in."

I have no idea if this will clear things up, but I can't tell you how little I care. That is problem with leaving Mormonism, isn't it. You learn not to care what others think of you. You have to.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 11:18PM by janeeliot.

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Posted by: ozpoof ( )
Date: June 06, 2014 11:05PM

This has nothing to do with being Irish. Everywhere the Catholic church operates has terrible histories of treating children like slaves, or sex slaves, or garbage. Religion also despises natural sexuality - some would say God given sexuality - and children born innocent but outside sanctioned sexual relationships are treated like something evil and disposable.

I blame religion because, while an individual may have done something terrible like this, these nuns claimed to follow a good man who taught not to judge, yet Christians ignore Jesus and cherrypick parts of the Bible they can use to attack others.

All religious texts are used the same way. In my opinion, religious texts are nothing better than hate speech when they are used to justify hate, and allow people to rationalize something so awful as disposing of children in a place for sh!t.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/06/2014 11:10PM by ozpoof.

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