As I read the Open Letter to the leadership in another thread, I wonder how a coup d'état in Mormonism would work?

I truly believe if we could get rid of the 15 men who lead the church now and replace them with sane, rational, caring human beings that almost all the pain and suffering in Mormonism could be prevented and reversed.

As I look at this site and others on the internet, I sense that there is a growing, yet unorganized, resistance movement among LDS members that might be a movement for change if it were organized.

First of all, it would have to be non-violent. No Operation Valkyrie type plot.

Second, we would have to take a few years to build a "Mormon Underground" movement on the internet.

Third, we would have to rely on a coming crisis within Mormonism and then be prepared to legally seize power when it happens.

All I have at this time is an outline. I'd be open to ideas.

GEtting rid of the top dudes would mean there would be a next step-all should be okay to be rid of the BofM. Would that even be possible??? No reason to keep doctrine that is false.JS has to go!!! Then what? Tear down the Temples? Gosh it would involve lots of decisions about what to do with them. I hope I am able to see the demise of this organization. The seizing of power is a nice idea, but then what?

The only logical next step would be worldwide secular humanism.

Shut the front door!!!!!
I had the same exact thought when reading that letter! My idea was more along the lines of uniting all exmos and noms and doing something really big to wake up he sheeple to the truth.
My other idea was~~Wouldn't it be awesome if the prophet stood at the podium at the next conference and said "look, I need to level with all of you. The church isn't true. I'm not a prophet. Let's all just cut the crap. I am the emperor and I'm not wearing any clothes and we all know it. Everybody just love your families. We are all now FREE!"

It would be so beautiful...

You'd have a bunch of power-hungry, self-righteous manipulators ready to jump into the empty space you described, the minute you ousted the big 15. I think this tree is going to have to topple from internal rot, not be chopped off at the top like some bible parable and replaced by healthy branches grafted in.

That being said, I've always maintained that if the members knew what the big bubbas were doing with their money, their much needed earnings, sacrificed-to-pay tithing dollars, there would be an exodus. Even if the government knew what the Mormon leadership was doing hiding behind the invisibility cloak called "religion", there would be a scandal. Make them show what's in their books - that'll unseat them. I'm not sure anyone could seize power then - things might just implode. Either way, it's OK by me.

In my mind, there is nothing in Mormonism worth salvaging. Anything good in it, like love they neighbor and stuff, can be found elsewhere. I have no desire to reform something a think is pure crap from the very foundation. It would just be crap with a new coat of paint.

Removing the top 15 would be a game of whack the mole. They would be instantly replaced with nearly identical clones, believing and preaching the exact same doctrine, demanding the same sacrifice, and claiming to be the exact same One True Church.

But lets suppose for a minute that we got the prophet to announce at general conference that:

*) The Book of Mormon is fiction.
*) There is no such thing as priesthood.
*) Temple work and family history is a waste of time.
*) Jesus was just a regular human who tried to get people to be
loving and non-judgmental.

At that point, the LDS church would have no purpose...

After the coup there would have to be a MAJOR restructuring of Mormonism.

First of all the Big 15 would be subjected to term limits. Perhaps 10 years or less. Women would have to be given the priesthood so that they too could serve as apostles.

This would end the dictatorship of the 15 and open it up to a more democratic way.

No more untrained leaders. A bishop would be paid from local tithing funds. I think that there is a precedent for paid clergy in church history.

Other things like temples, the Book of Mormon would have to be dealt with more slowly although temple marriage would have to be open to all people (members and non-members) right away.

The FIRST goal is to end the dictatorship of the 15 and the local bullies. The second phase is up for discussion.

There is no need. It's already collapsing. The Prop 8 fiasco was a desperate attempt to unite against a common enemy (gays). And why would they do that? Because the church is collapsing as has been well exposed in this forum in other posts.

It is collapsing financially due to lack of growth, bad investments and the bad management so common in leaders without humility- hubris, if you will. There's no possibility of change because firing/changing would simply expose the rot, which the leaders have obviously chosen not to do.

So the church either morphs into a mainstream Protestant Church OR it collapses. Obviously the latter is not what's going to happen, so you may live to see a "Back to Basics Revival" which will feature Back to the Book of Mormon, which it will redefine as an allegory pointing to and reinforcing the Bible and all contradictions will be called "insignificant non-spiritual cultural details which do not affect the spiritual power and magnificence of the Greatest Spirituality Guide for the Modern Age."

New Order Mormons will eventually take over, and LDS will become like the Community of Christ.

Sheesh, these, PUI sorts just leave me shaking my head...

And I'll ask the same question without the assumption that the current leaders are deluded, believing gonzos; they may be character-disordered crooks for all I know...

The sheeple wouldn't stand for this, and seriously, this kind of nonsense is a discredit to the board...

I could be persuaded you're really Danites in disguise...

No, I'm quite serious Cabbie. Even if the Coup didn't work (and given the totalitarian nature of Mormonism there is a high chance at this time that it would not) it may give those within the church who are suffering a voice. The national media would pick up on a story like this.

If it happened during a very slow news cycle, it could be front page news.

You will have to admit that something needs to be done. How many more parents have to stand outside temples while their children are married inside? How many more men and women have to be dragged through the mud and have spouse and family turn against them for simply being honest? How many more suicides?

I've left out the idea that there may be one member of the Twelve who might be a non-believer with a conscience. He might be willing to join us.

Cabbie, it's a long shot I know. It sounds crazy. Yet no one today looks back at Claus von Stauffenberg (the man who tried to overthrow the Nazis) as crazy even though he and the others with him failed.

We have the internet. We have a growing number of people who are tired of the good old boy network that runs the Mormon Church. Memebers came out AGAINST the church on Prop 8. I think it's time to act.

I don't think that this is a joke. This isn't something that we should just play around with and joke about. I really, really think that it needs to be done. Like many others, the church has caused pain in my life that is unnecessary. People go to church and hear that things are supposedly so nice and rosy and whatnot. A lot of people there actually believe that everyone else just simply believes, and without open communication, the facade goes on unnecessarily. I had the fortunate experience of being able to go to a devotional last week on Friday where a woman came and gave a special speech on how the church is losing ground due to the internet, and SPECIFICALLY cited this site. She also said that the church is hemmoraging members and investigators are quick to lose interest in the church. I was slightly shocked at the admission of these facts, but hey, they have to try to win people back somehow. She also cited major problems with how people view the church, especially in regard to the church's online presence, or the lack thereof of positive influence. I think back to Boyd K Packer's fan site on this one. Anyway, she was specifically trying to turn everyone into robot propagandists and I was literally sick to my stomach. I mean, so many times when I go to church, the same thing is talked about....How can we get people interested in the church? What can we do to influence them? How can we show that we have a happier, more fulfilled life and that we are better in every way and that they need what we have? I hate going to church because all they want to do is talk about taking over the world and they don't give a da** about anything else usually. The general consensus is that the church can cure you and you don't need someone else to help you with that. That's why church sucks. If you have problems, to them, you're not following the church enough. I desperately needed a place to vent and be open about things at certain points since being home, because I thought I was the only one who thought like I did. I have loved these sites and needed them. I still do. But there has to be some kind of organized front where people can reclaim ground against the societal ills that are caused by the church. Where people can be themselves and feel free to do things without feeling stifled. Is that too hard to ask? I always felt like many of the problems that are caused by society here in Utah come about because people are isolated and feel alone with no area for expression. I still suffer from that. But what do you do?

My point, because I think I failed to make it clear... I think we need another internet site that is perhaps connected to Facebook where people can join together in some kind of way to become united. I'm in already.

Well that's two of us.

I've got to run off to work, but I'll check this thread later.

My main object here is to try and stop the pain and suffering caused by the Mormon leaders. I've heard so many times on this board about the church imploading and being destroyed.

That's not going to happen. What can happen is a group of caring people who put humanity before dogma could move in and take over. Contrary to the propaganda, Mormonism is not all that big. There are only a few million active people compared with the millions and millions in the Catholic Church devoted to the pope. I feel that would make it easier.

About what happened to Von Stauffenberg and most of his followers (including Erwin Rommel, who may or may not have been involved).

And be willing to accept the consequences for violating Godwin's law...

Seriously, I know from past history this board is not a place for "activism" (per its owner, Eric), and I agree with his philosophy (even though I've got a variation on Brent Metcalf's "Galilean moment for the church" I keep as a favorite fantasy). Eric doesn't denounce activism; he merely says this isn't the place for it...

I am content to park my taxi here and speak softly and be willing to be a big prick (at times). I trust the forces of education and rationality even though political events these days have me shaking my head...

People come here for answers, and many of us seek to provide them without evangelizing... Mormons thrive on persecution and propaganda, as their history shows...

Martyrdom-R-Us is not my cup of joe...

run out and find another cult to surrender their souls and finances to? 50%, 25%?

I would like to think that all of the sudden the several million TBM's would "awake and arise" and blossom with insight, spirituality and individuality, but I'd be dreaming.

Not cease to exist. That's not possible. With millions of believers it's not going to happen.

But you can change what they believe....in a heartbeat. One day blacks could not have the priesthood, the next day they could.

One day the endowment had a minister and death threats....the next day it didn't.

I maintain if kind humans had the reins then Mormonism could be transformed into a force for good.

Your new church won't get any of that, just whatever income you can bully the members out of.

There have been quite a few splinters in Mormon history.

Perhaps one of them would fit your needs. The RLDS (CoC) no longer preach that the BoM is scripture.

This is going to be complicated. First of all If we take away Mormonism, how do we prevent suicides, or another wakier faction of Mormonism from rising?
Second of all, I can tell you that it is impossible to create a perfect church.
However, I want to see all of my friends and relatives who are good people be able to open their eyes. So once we can all figure out a plan of how to tople Mormonism's power structure, or get them to admit to the truth, I am on board. Please keep me informed.
P.S. Great Post, I had actually dreamed of a "Mormon Rebellion" for many years.

Everyone is running a little too far ahead of themselves dreaming already of what they would do once a takeover was within grasp. But what about those first steps? Many of the Mormon Underground / NOM are intentionally pretending to be TBM. One of the main reasons for that is they feel that their families lives, their personal lives, and maybe even their professional lives would be put in serious jeopardy if it were ever found out what they truly believed. WE all know about the trolls lurking on these sites who would love to OUT one of us to the "authorities" We've got this site, the NOM site and others in which the mormon underground is at least talking to each other, but what next? What specifically are the first steps to take? I love reading about the big dreams of everyone, but what do you think the first small steps really are?

The Mormons that I get a long with the most are very reasonable. The only thing keeping them interested in attending church has nothing to do with JS or the BOM, it is simply being kind and loving on another.

I had a conversation with my mom when I told her I was not going to church anymore and she told me that you do not have to believe in all of it and that she didn't. She told me that she holds on to her testimony of eternal families and that nothing could change that. I told her that I think if the prophet told the church that other groups also had that authority to grant eternal life and eternal families that she could pick another church to join that has not bred such a bad culture. She didn't really have a defense. I believe the bottom line is that people will do and believe what the 15 say to do and believe. The trouble is, if you only have 1 of the 15, that 1 will be labeled as an apostate and kicked out on his ass. This may cause some to leave, but not a lot. I like the idea of a grass roots movement to gather all of the reasonable Mormons - I think if this group got big, with mormons, non-mormons and ex-mo's, the 15 would announce that members in good standing should not be a part of it. They will be threatened with excommunication and family destruction.

So my question is - how do we get the 15 or a few of the 15 to admit the faults and not be labeled as apostates? I am not sure if this is possible. If the revolution comes from any other source, other than the 15, I don't think rank and file members will budge. At least the ones I know.

Brigham Young stole the football a long time ago. It just goes to prove if someone else steals it in modern times, it will probably continue to exist in one form or another somewhere else. Fist, something would have to shake the church up pretty bad in Salt Lake like a huge scandle or disaster or something. You have to kick the anthill and scramble the ants first.

You simply weigh the benefits and costs. The benefits of more freedom of choice sometimes gets beat by the cost of upsetting family, employers, friends, the community ect... It's one reason for a lot of the hypocracy in the church.

I think it's a minority that actually stay in because they actually believe in it. Most of the sane members rarely are up there during testimony meeting.

But figuring out which ones actually don't believe but are still pretending would be a chore. No one in my ward has any idea that I think the church is false and would be shocked if they learned. Makes me wonder if there are others in my ward or in my stake who feel the same way but who wear the facade just as well as I do. How do you bring those people together without jeopardizing the facade so that you can bring these forces together and actually do something.

The church went through a big change in the 60s, and continued it through the 70s, and now they've cemented their position.

The first change was correlation. Before correlation, the church allowed people to think for themselves, prepare their own lessons and "be led by the spirit" to the extent they believed in such things.

The next change was in the 70s, when the church took a stand against the equal rights amendment. They had a very clever and effective political strategy, and have played off of that with regard to same sex marriage politics.

The result of these changes has been that only the most militant mormons remain in the church. As a result, the leadership of the church is the most militant of the militant...etc.

So, all of the current apostles and the 1st presidency have been in leadership positions through these changes. They've been scared of things like Sunstone, Dialogue, and now the Internet. They've weathered the storm by marginalizing anyone on the margins. If you voice a question about the church, you'll never be bishop or relief society president. If you don't make that rank, you won't be an SP or GA.

Ultimately, this was a very smart choice for the church. They drew a line in the sand, and maintained the ranks of the real believers. There other choice would have been horrible for church revenues, and etc.

For example, if they had welcomed all to the fold, the doubters and nay-sayers would have eventually forced a logical approach on the church. Many of the core doctrines, like priesthood, BoM and prophets would have been undermined. The people remaining would be like Quakers or RLDS...people who want to live their lives well, in a community, but without the commitment to tithing, missions, or church leadership that the church enjoys today.

The church chose the right strategy.

Now, I cannot figure out why anyone would be in the church...but there are plenty of militant mormons who simply don't want to look outside the box.

The church is strong, as a result. It would have become weak, had it been open to other ideas.

But I'm still a little unclear as to what you would really hope to accomplish.
Are you looking to create a new church that is only claiming that Mormonism isn't true?
Are you looking to create an exmormon.org, but not on the web?
Do you just want to steal the current churches assets, so that you can distribute them to the poor?
Because that last one sounds like a fun idea, but it's never going to happen in reality. You aren't talking about a coup just with 15 people, you are talking about the whole COB and area 70s who are in their positions because they LOVE TSCC. If they stop loving it, they leave.
Are you just hoping to find a charismatic leader to give voice to the frustrations who would be willing to accept all of the character assassinations that others have already endured by trying this?

The problem is that, in my perspective, most general authorities have testimonies that are based entirely on their riches, though many may give a lot to the church. For those of us who dig deep to find spiritual meaning in Mormonism in hard times, the appeal quickly wears off. They merely give talks to boost missionary morale, while the missionaries are cannon fodder on the front lines. I personally almost lost my mind because of the threat of eternal damnation more than once. It was a dark time for me, but what do they know? They get the easy life. Once the facade wore off, I was truly happy again for the first time in a while. If I were to have had a successful, happy time after getting back from the mission, I never would have deprogrammed. I was already high on the fact that I was in rm status and all the girls were supposed to want me. When that didn't happen, I had to look inside myself and ask some deep questions as to who I really was as a person. Without the glamor of a life falling in step with a perfect Mormon fairy tale, the illusion quickly faded and I was left to see what I had become, an empty sole propped up behind the false security of the church.it was a hard lesson to learn, but one of the best of my life.