I started a thread the other day about the council for the disposition of tithes. It is interesting to know that only 18 men know the whole picture.

So, anyone who knows, do they keep the worker bees seperated? I mean, do they keep the people who know about the financials for the seminary/institute program and lets say, the people who take care of money for temples? Are these people seperated?

I know personally one of the 8 people who know the full financial picture of the church. The only people who know everything include the first presidency, the presiding bishopric and two administrative leaders.

My friend was very clear that not even the Q 12 get the entire picture.

Yes they participate in the council of the disposition of tithes. But that is not all of the church's money. Just the portion related to the church itself. Not the rest of its business interests.

My friend also told me that the there are two reasons the church breaks up its operations into more than a dozen corporations. One is to limit risk. If there is a lawsuit, the whole thing won't be at risk.

The second reason he gave was so that no one could really know the full financial picture of the church.

Why should you believe that anything I have said is true?

You probably shouldn't.

But this was a real conversation with one of those 8 people. He could have lied to me. But he doesn't know I am a heretic and had no reason to lie.

For what its worth.

That makes sense. I believe you. What position do those 8 men have?

First presidency (3), presiding bishopric (3), Senior financial officer/staff (2)

There is a meeting once a year where the full books are reviewed by these 8 people.

It was interesting that the new presiding bishop (stevenson) didn't realize this when he was first called and had planned to be out of town on that particular day when this annual meeting was to occur. They had to inform him of how special he was to be part of that meeting.

I can't remember whether or not he changed his plans for that initial meeting or not. But it was in this context I was having the conversation with one of these 8.

That's fascinating 8thgeneration! Has this person shared with you any other information about the financials or inner workings of the church? Have you asked him how much money the church brings in, how they they are doing financially, how much is actually spent on things like charity, etc?

My friend was very closed lipped about what he knew. I did ask and he never disclosed anything of substance. I am pretty sure what I have shared here he would not have considered of substance. But clearly I did. It shows control and intentional manipulation on part of the church to continue to hide what it is doing from everyone. Including other prophets.

I thought was just the President, his 1st counselor and the accountants that had the full picture. And maybe a few high level non Apostle guys that have signed so much legal non disclosure to ruin their life forever if they speak up that knew the truth.

Financial data seems to be compartmentalized as much as the military treats top secret data and leaves many out of the loop only working on a few things without knowing what Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X cogs in the machine are doing.

Yes I am surprised if this info is correct that the presiding bishopric is allowed to see the for profit financial picture as my understanding is that the corporation of the presiding bishop is the non-profit arm of the financial empire. What would the point be for them to see the for-profit picture?

sanitationengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes I am surprised if this info is correct that
> the presiding bishopric is allowed to see the for
> profit financial picture as my understanding is
> that the corporation of the presiding bishop is
> the non-profit arm of the financial empire. What
> would the point be for them to see the for-profit
> picture?

Don't forget the PB was closely involved in managing City Creek:

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=19428181

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/money/53826007-79/burton-church-lds-lake.html.csp

H. David Burton, longtime presiding bishop of the LDS Church and the genial public face of the faith's decadelong effort to build a mammoth urban community of residences, offices and shops in downtown Salt Lake City, was released Saturday from the ecclesiastical post he has held since 1996.

The announcement — by Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the faith's governing First Presidency, during the 182nd Annual General Conference — came just nine days after the church and Taubman Centers Inc. opened the retail component of City Creek Center, across the street from Temple Square and LDS Church headquarters.

Jason Mathis, executive director of the Downtown Alliance, said Burton "changed the fabric of downtown in very meaningful and beneficial ways," but also helped people in less public ways.

What 8thgeneration says is money in the bank. Truth is spoken here.

What I've never understood since becoming aware of it is why the Presiding BP would know anything about financials. Growing up, I always assumed they only worked with BPs around the world.

See my post above, the presiding bishop is the man that initially controls all of the tax free money (tithing, mish fund, fast offerings etc.)

I can confirm that what 8thgeneration says about the 8 is correct.
The FP, the PB and 2 employees

In my days the senior financial officer was Dick Edgeley who was later in the Presiding Bishopric. Robert Hales was the PB and Henry Eyring was one of his counsellors, now both Apostles.

Tom Phillips

Thanks again!!!!

Fascinating.

I wish there could be greater transparency. Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant...

Yes it is. I wonder if anyone has been tracking the "8" through their various church assignments? Rewarding them for being good boys and keeping their mouth shut.

I wonder if they sweep the room for bugs. Could a focused audio device penetrating through the windows to record the meeting. Perhaps a tie camera could be worn.

Annointed One thanks for the info.

This raises two questions for me that you or others may or may not know.

1). Is this a source of friction between Packer and Monson? Especially in light of speculation of Monson's onset of dementia and the fact that BKP from several accounts is still mentally sharp even though his physical condition is declining.

2). Is Hales possibly an extra member of this group given his previous position as presiding bishop? If not is it a source of friction for him?

In a small training meeting with stake presidencies (my FIL was in attendance), Hales was asked about how he like being in SLC around the COB. He replied that he would prefer to go back down to South America where "in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

sanitationengineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Annointed One thanks for the info.
>
> This raises two questions for me that you or
> others may or may not know.
>
> 1). Is this a source of friction between Packer
> and Monson? Especially in light of speculation of
> Monson's onset of dementia and the fact that BKP
> from several accounts is still mentally sharp even
> though his physical condition is declining.
>
> 2). Is Hales possibly an extra member of this
> group given his previous position as presiding
> bishop? If not is it a source of friction for him?

My response FWIW:-

(1) There has always been friction between Monson and Packer. Monson is primarily a business man (MBA) concerned with corporate matters and has been very lacking in teaching doctrines. Whereas Packer is ex CES and very concerned about a conservative interpretation of doctrine. Both can be very cruel to others and are not known for their 'loving natures'.

Latterly the church leaders have been vying in the 'Monson camp' or the 'Packer camp'. Packer's camp is smaller and seen by the others as having a time expiry (his death). The strongest camp in recent decades was the 'Hinckley camp' because GBH could be a unifier and seen as good on PR. He was the church's best 'spin doctor' if that is a virtue (I do not consider it so).

(2) Hales will no longer be party to the financial details and I don't know how he feels about it. You could ask the same question of Dave Burton and others. I suspect Hales does not really care. He is a corporate man - Mr. Gillette, Harvard MBA - although he has more deference to doctrine than Monson.

When I first met Hales he was a mission president and obviously concerned about increasing baptisms. When he was Presiding Bishop I attended a lunch with him and the main topic of his conversation was BYU football. I had looked forward to a more church focused discussion, but not to be. I don't think he viewed his job as PB much differently than his job as President of Gillette Europe.

Don't assume from the above that I am against MBAs, that and lawyers are what the church needs as it is clearly not a religion. I just contrast the corporate types (Monson, Perry, Hales etc.) with the would be theologians (Packer, Maxwell, McConkie).

The would be theologians clearly got it wrong and the corporates should be given some credit for selling a very dodgy product. Though I consider they should be given blame rather than credit.

Thanks for the response. I was curious about Hales and your thoughts of him as I know some of the less celebrated half of his progeny.

Note that the LDS Church is a bunch of corporations. For instance, if you work for them your check will probably say something like:
Corporation of the First Presidency or some other such title.

Yes, the LDS Church is both non-profit and for profit. There is a list of them on a Utah web site.

From what I have determined, there are so many sections or different corporations that only a few know how it all works.

I have known a man for many years who works for DMC in a very high position. He mentioned some years ago, and I assume it has not changed, that Deseret Mgt Corp has 4 Q12 on the board on a rotating basis. He noted that some know their stuff and contribute, some don't know a thing about business and keep their mouths shut and listen, and a few know nothing, but like to tell the pros what to do. Packer fit nicely in this camp.