So my parents invited the missionaries of our ward for dinner tonight. There's 5 of them. 2 guys and 3 girls. Last time they were over my mom pushed me to "ask them my questions" but I refused because I'm trying not to cause a stir in my family. But if my mom asks me again tonight I feel like I should say something that would be of significance to the missionaries or catch them off guard. Any suggestions?

Here's how you catch a missionary off guard:

Sincere bluntness.

They spend all day forcing themselves on people and finding people who are too polite to turn them away. Sincerity and bluntness is not something they are used to, typically (unless it is a quick door slam, so if it is sustained in a conversation, that is different).

Just think logically and dont let them use any fallacious reasoning. You are at a disadvantage though if you are the only non believer in the room. Likely they will just resort to testimony then afterwards help each other think they all felt "the spirit" and if you dont feel it, it is just because "you didn't try"

I wonder what would happen if I even dared bringing up John and Kate.oh my god haha!

They would play dumb. There actually is a pretty high chance they are dumb on the subject. Missionaries are kept in the dark.

I would just stick to a few major ones that they probably don't know about, to get them thinking. Make sure you drop references from credible, church approved sources.


If polygamy was called of God, why did JS marry 14 year old girls? Why would he marry women who were already married? Why would he marry a woman who was not only already married, but pregnant. It was obviously not to "raise up righteous seed".

According to the recent church essay on the translation of the golden plates, JS actually used a seer stone placed in his hat to translate, that he found years before discovering the plates. So God led JS to find a stone years before that he hoped he would still have around to translate the most important historical document needed to get us back to live with Him again?

Why are there so many different accounts of the first vision? Don't you think if a person saw God, that he would remember to state that in his account each time?

Oh the polyandry would DEFINETLY catch them offguard. Anything polygamy related I think I might bring up. I remember a few months ago I asked the sisters if there was polygamy in heaven since it's still in the scripture and they said they would research it and get back to me. Never did.

ask them how many times Joe Smith was arrested.

Another good one is the institutionalized Racism. They have their pre-made response, but the essay on racism on lds.org is pretty good.

In the essay the church "Disavows" all past teachings on race and acknowledges those teachings were based on racism.

You could ask if that is true, then why did God allow Brigham Young to lead so many people astray for so long? Especially if God is not a respecter of persons?

They would probably say something like how god works in mysterious ways and we don't know the reason but for that time period god didn't want blacks holding the priesthood. You know the usual push it under the rug response. The problem is that idk what to respond with

I would point out to them that they are just pushing it under the rug and not giving an answer. Just dont accept the "We don't know" because in truth it is not enough. Tell them that there is a reason. The reason was given by the church on lds.org: Racism. Tell them the church admits BY was a racist. Then ask: How can you trust a prophet if in reality they are no different than anyone else?

Edit: They will probably come back with a testimony about the Book of Mormon and how that shows Joseph Smith was a prophet. But that is a total non sequitur.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2014 12:41PM by nonsequiter.

I prefer mine Boiled with enough spices & sauce to make it interesting.


fried, deep-fried, not for me;

as anyone tried BBQing a pair?

Ask them what they think about the Book of Abraham issue.....they probably have never heard abiut it, so you can explain how the papyrus were rediscovered, and none of it has anything whatsoever to do with Abraham.... including all the facsimiles in the scriptures..... don't push what you think...... just ask them what they think.....

Personally, I wouldn't take the bait. If anything, I would just state that there are significant church history problems and if someone is interested in knowing what the issues are, they can quickly find out on the internet. Then take the high road.

Some folks may see this as a cop-out, but it may be best to keep the peace with the family. Just another perspective.

This is what I usually went by and I know when I get older and start going more inactive I'll probably avoid talking about any of the issues at all unless they sincerely want to know. But just have this urge to just poke around them and see what responses I get. Nothing that they'd go like "what have you been reading" but just somethig to make them think

I actually agree with this, but if I wanted to throw caution to the wind, it would be the Second Anointing! It's secret, privileged, and show the two-tiered elite-peon structure of the morg in a nutshell.

This probably really is the best. Dont have conversations if they are not on your terms.

I like this approach.

You: What types of objections do get from investigators these days?

Mishie: Well, someone went on line and read that Joseph married teenage girls and already married women! What anti-Mormon nonsense!

You: Actually, that's true. One of his youngest wives was only 14 - Helen Mar Kimball. At least 11 of the women he married were already married to still living husbands (many of them were loyal members of the church). What else are you hearing?

Mishie: One guy said the Brigham Young taught that Adam is God. I wish people wouldn't listen to anti-Mormon crap!

You: Actually, BY did teach that for 30 years from the pulpit as a revelation from God. He sanctioned anyone who refused to accept the teaching as doctrine.

Hey.... if your mom is giving you the green light..... take the opportunity to probe them!.... if it causes trouble with the fam, just say that mom told you to ask.

Just ask them if they can tell you how Joseph Smith really translated the Gold Plates. If they say anything other than using a Rock in the Hat, call them to the carpet.

Make a copy of the CES letter and give one to each. Then sincerely ask for a rebuttal.

Ah this is great! Hah

Question You: “The most important thing in LDS theology is the War in heaven where Free Agency was fought for and won, correct?”

Mishies: “Yes”

Statement You: “In D&C 132: 26 Emma is told by god that if she did not accept polygamy and the other wives (:52) that Joseph had married she would be destroyed. And if she still chose to not accept polygamy that Joseph would still be blessed even more.”

Mishies and mom: murmur, bug eyes, murmur, concerned looks.

Statement You: "It’s right there in black and white in that quad you got right there if you want to look it up. While looking that up I have only one question. What did that do to Emma’s Free Agency?"

Leave it at that.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/12/2014 02:54PM by AmIDarkNow?.

I like this one from Leviticus.
"Just ask them if they can tell you how Joseph Smith really translated the Gold Plates. If they say anything other than using a Rock in the Hat, call them to the carpet."

But print out the "translation essay" on this subject before hand. So when they look at each other and stammer you can hand it to them. Saying this came right from TSCC own website.

Anything you ask them have legitimate resources handy from tscc own publications. Non-Anti. The thing with tscc it's own published writings, talks, books, newspapers from lds conception up till today is it's own worse enemy.

How did it go? Did you bring anything up?

Well they were actually a lot more friendly since the one got released. My mom didn't ask me to ask them any questions so I decided to save myself the talk later with my parents. I did however ask them about why they allow elders and sisters in the same ward now and I also had a good conversation with the one while she was doing our dishes. It was about the whole Obama releasing the terrorists thing and she didn't hear about it at all!!!! And then I also mentioned how just two weeks ago they legalized gay marrige in Pennsylvania and she said "great! One more state!" I thought she was being sarcastic at first but I guess not! My dad gave her a weird look though hah it was great. And I was actually relieved to hear that from a TBM because you just get so much homophobia out here in PA. Like my mom saying the legalization was the most terrible thing ever. I'm glad I didn't bring up anything intense though because 7 tbms right there, one 16 year old girl. Think about it. I wish I had guts that big!Oh the elders also walked our dog which was nice.

Very interesting indeed, I'm glad your night turned out enjoyable

Thanks for the follow-up. Glad that it went well...

It wastes your time and annoys the pig.


I have been on this board a LONG time. In all those years there have been so many things that people thought were the straw that was going to break the proverbial camel's back. NONE of them did. Ya see religion especially mormonism, is not about facts. It is about a CHOICE to believe something despite facts and evidence.

I remember the South Park episode about the mormons. Dum-da-dum-dumb-dumb. The cheerful revealed all kinds of craziness about the mormon church. THe missing translation, the witness who never witnessed, the stone in a hat. They did it to music for chrissakes. People thought the church would topple from this disclosure. NOPE.

NO matter how clever, how articulate, how accurate, or how compelling, you argument is wasted on someone who has an a priori decision to believe NO MATTER WHAT.

NOW when somebody is ready to listen…well then all that stuff is very compelling. But until they are ready all it does is solidify their defenses and make you sound like a zealot.All of the information, the so-called questions…is readily available on the internet.

FOR ME…I just say…"I used to be just like you, and when you know what I know…you'll be just like me" and walk away. If they insist I shake their hand good bye. (in the spirit of full disclosure I DO use the patriarchal grip when I shake their hand but that's just because I'm an ass)

I can't figure out why your mom would think that the missionaries would have any answers to your questions. They're 18 and 19 year old kids, fresh out of high school. What do they know? In the MTC, all they learn are the discussions, and a few sales techniques. They're not in any way qualified to be giving answers to deep questions about theological or philosophical topics, or even about church history. You probably know more about it than they do, anyway.

People take their tough questions to bishops, stake presidents, and even general authorities, and those guys can't come up with any good answers... so why would two teenagers do any better?

But with that said, I agree with the suggestion to give them each a copy of the CES letter. It does a great job of laying out the basic issues with doctrine and history, and saves you the trouble of explaining it all at the dinner table while all the TBMs stare at you with disapproving looks on their faces.

Ask them:

If the temple is so secret, I mean sacred, why did god let someone take an iPhone in and film the Satan movie and the secret, I mean sacred handshakes, and post it on the Internet?