Assume you knew of a person like JD who stated his sincerity, and who joined others, in voicing apparently sincere concerns that it seemed that the church could not be true because there was compelling evidence that Nauvoo did not exist, knowing that Nauvoo was supposed to play an important part in church history. Would you think that this person was a "wolf in sheep's clothing," or any kind of a threat? Or would you be utterly unconcerned that this person could lead any reasonable person astray? Would you jump to the conclusion that they were apostate? Or would you assume that they were simply confused and show them a map of the United States showing the existence and location of Nauvoo? Would you move to excommuniate them without at least trying to show them the map? Wouldn't you show the world and the membership, in general, the map?

If, on the other hand, you believed that you had no way to verify the existence of Nauvoo, or make its existence appear plausible, or refute the evidence against the existence of Nauvoo, then what would you think? What would you do?

...the Church might be using this as a "teaching tool" for the membership in general. Sending them the message, "Hey asses, pay up and shut up, or you'll end up like those other three schmoes.....out on your keister!"

You're right. It is possible that the leadership thinks there are good answers but they just decline to give them. Nothing precludes the possibility that they are just downright wicked and cruel.

Of course, they don't seem to decline to provide poor answers. So, it's not that they have something against the provision of answers, generally.

It's always the same. Burn down the printing presses, because our answers are crap!

Yes, the top 15 know it is all a scam.

Lying deceivers fleecing the gullible and for some of us it is our family members who are in their trap.

Tom,

I've really wondered about that. Before I bailed out, I served as Ward Clerk to Henry (Hal) Eyring when he was bishop of the Stanford (University) Singles Ward in Palo Alto. I feel that I got to know him fairly well.

At that time, he was also a very popular professor in the Stanford MBA program. I knew him to be a very spiritual, but down to earth, dedicated believer. There was nothing phony about him, nor did he ever give any indication that he may have thought the church could be untrue. If he truly knows now it is all a scam, he must have had a cruel awakening somewhere along the way.

I, like you, absolutely know the church is a sham, but am not sure all of the 15 completely share this view - especially Hal Eyring. What is it I'm missing here?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 04:35PM by Templar.

I met Hal when he was a counsellor in the PB. I was very impressed with his 'spirituality'. I admired him greatly.

Since then I have learned more of the truth about the brethren. Hal is far too smart, and has been exposed to so much, that IMO there is no way he does not know it is a scam.

He, like the others has made a choice to 'believe' and use his persuasive powers to influence others. Initially I was touched by the tears that well up when he speaks, even in private. Holland does the same with his talks.

Now, I remember times when I have cried while bearing testimony or relating a 'spiritual' experience. Actually I still do, even though I no longer have the gift of the HG. However, if I were to retell my experience a number of times, the crying would lessen on each occasion until I could relate the experience without a tear.

Take Hal and Jeff as prime examples of convincing others using emotion. I have listened to Jeff give the same talk on numerous occasions and every time he cries at specific moments and thumps the pulpit on cue. They are actors, using emotional language to deceive others.

You cry once when talking about something 'spiritual' or personal, maybe even on a second or third retelling, but not every time after 50, 100, 200 repeats.

I can accept that Hal was sincere when at Stanford and maybe in the PB. But as you say something must have happened. He cannot be an apostle of his standing and not know. He is not like a typical TBM, shielded from the issues and not wanting to know. Like Holland, he knows the issues, knows they mean the church is not true, yet decides to perpetuate the scam. His reason? I don't know but have my private speculations.

Bottom line - I genuinely feel sorry for most TBMs whom I regard as victims of the scam. But Hal and his ilk are the worse kind of deceivers.

Tom

There was a fantastic post a few weeks ago about Michael McLean pulling similar nonsense at EFY

The tl;dr is he would do the same rehearsed number each year and pretended to be moved upon by the spirit at a certain time to have everyone hold hands and sing "You're not alone". When one kid and his friend went to EFY two years in a row and saw McLean have the exact same prompting at the exact same time, they knew it was all just a show to promote his music.

I'd link to it but this is the worst exmo board there is and it won't let me.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 08:18PM by whitethunder.

Tom,

Thank you so much for your well thought out response. Obviously, its been over forty years since I was close to Hal. He could well have changed a great deal in that time. I'm sure you will agree that he is one of the sharpest, if not the sharpest of the "unholy" fifteen. He has a keen mind and can readily size up a situation and act accordingly.

Perhaps he's now like many I have met over the years that have determined that the church is false. They, nevertheless, feel it's a great way to keep their wife in line and raise their kids. Their attitude is "what the hell, it can't hurt" without acknowledging the real harm the church does to so many people. Basically they approach it all with their head in the sand and try not to rock the boat. On the surface they appear to be TBMs, but deep down they have become agnostic and now just keep their mouth shut and go through the motions without conviction. They are like the "body snatchers" - identical to their former self, but now lack real emotion.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 12:50AM by Templar.

I agree.

The apparent inconsistency only seems like a problem to those who are not wickedly deceitful themselves, or who have not come face to face with people who are.

This reminds me that some years ago, before the internet had really taken off, I had a couple dates with an employee at the COB. A very intelligent person. We didn't really hit it off romantically, but I was impressed with the caliber of their person. This employee was obviously struggling with their testimony and wanted to talk about it. This person said that they were starting to believe that there must be no such thing as right or wrong, given the things they had seen at the COB. Thinking back I wish I had pressed for details, but at the time I wasn't sure I should. Instead I tried to convince this person not to base their ethics in the Church. However, this person did mention that Henry Eyring was against releasing church documents in digital form because that would make those document too easy to search. This person said that knowing this didn't bother this person's tesimony, but it was clear that it did.

Mormonism is a proven fraud, the work has been done. The Fifteen know they are not Prophets, Seers, or Revelators. The Fifteen know they have not seen a God or a Som of God named Jesus Christ who is reported to have lived, died, and come back to life.

When they testifying of anything in these categories they are knowingly perpetuating a fraud.

I didn't even touch Church history or Truth claims. Just the roles the claim they have assumed and the experiences these roles are to perpetuate as Special Witnesses.

Wy is this so hard for people to see.

These guys are con men. Founded by a con man, entrenched by a bully con man, perpetuated by con men to this date.

Well said.

gentlestrength Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mormonism is a proven fraud, the work has been
> done. The Fifteen know they are not Prophets,
> Seers, or Revelators. The Fifteen know they have
> not seen a God or a Som of God named Jesus Christ
> who is reported to have lived, died, and come back
> to life.
>
> When they testifying of anything in these
> categories they are knowingly perpetuating a
> fraud.
>
> I didn't even touch Church history or Truth
> claims. Just the roles the claim they have
> assumed and the experiences these roles are to
> perpetuate as Special Witnesses.
>
> Wy is this so hard for people to see.
>
> These guys are con men. Founded by a con man,
> entrenched by a bully con man, perpetuated by con
> men to this date.
--------------------------------------------------------------
It's hard for people to see when they have an emotional tie to anything. That's all religion is, a crush.
Hm, I really meant to hit the "quote" tab.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 07:32PM by bearlaker.

They are such good con men they are even conning themselves into thinking that their lying and scamming is okay, because it is for the people's own good.

anointedone Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Lying deceivers fleecing the gullible and for some
> of us it is our family members who are in their
> trap.

I'd put a sharper point on that "some of us." For most of us, the whole emphasis of the LDS church is on "our family members" staying in the "trap." The number of exmormons who never have had to cope with family members being the church's unknowing hostages and agents is a small minority.

Personally I'm not certain that we can say that all of the 15 KNOW 100% it's a scam. Sure they know of the major issues and sure they know that JC hasn't personally appeared to them, but over the years they've probably become really good at explaining away doubts and reinforcing their faith.

I know lots of SPs, TPs, MPs and 70's (undoubtedly a few SA recipients) that are good people and who genuinely believe despite being aware of issues. I'm not certain that this faith necessarily changes once they become Apostles.

They stand in front of the world and say they KNOW. If you are going to do that despite knowing the "difficult" issues, you better have exhaustively researched and come up with answers for all the difficulties that would satisfy a reasonable intelligent person. They aren't dodos ya know. If any of them had done this the good answers would be available. They may have surface justifications, but deep down when they are alone with themselves...they know. Just like any of us know. Also, there are things other than belief that motivate people to stay and lead despite their knowledge.

But do you think they know there are (currently) no good answers to the questions many people find belief shattering? It doesn't even have to be knowledge. Could be belief. Do they believe there are (currently) no good answers to the questions many people find belief shattering?

Some probably are aware that answers are lacking. When I've asked difficult questions I've either received the textbook FAIR BS or the 'we'll understand in the next life / it's a test' BS.

Recognising that there are issues and that some answers are lacking, still doesn't necessarily equal sure knowledge of scam. There was probably a time just before our shelves finally collapsed when each of us were aware of some problems and yet justified our faith and testimony. Fortunately we allowed ourselves to then take that additional mental step. There's a huge amount of stuff that might potentially stop one of the 15 taking that step.

Saying this, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a few are aware and yet continue to perpetuate for what they probably try and justify to themselves are good reasons. I just don't think we can make a sweeping statement that ALL know 100% it's a scam.

Sherlock, you are too kind towards them.

In decades past I may have agreed with you but today, they know of the issues and they know there is only one answer that explains all the issues. The church is not true, it was made up by JS and others.

Now if you go through the 15 name by name there are differences in their knowledge/belief but they are all culpable.

In the past I would have excused the likes of LeGrand Richards as not having the relevant information. But not the current 15.

I may make a separate post setting out my reasons for this view.

"I may make a separate post setting out my reasons for this view."

Please Please Please Do!

Maybe AO. I suppose I look at some 'church broke' people that we both know well. Former SP's, one or two who've received the second anointing etc. They definitely know the issues and yet don't believe it's a scam.

Apologists understand the issues better than most and yet they find a way to make it work for them. Don't get me wrong, I think the 15 are guilty of a lot of things - I'm not convinced however that we can categorically state 100% that all of them know it's a scam. For some of them that won't be the only logical conclusion from recognising there are indeed issues.

Sherlock,

I have looked into the eyes of some of those men and seen the discomfort. They know it is false, yet choose to believe for their own reasons. They brainwash themselves into believing, because they think the top boys have the secret/sacred answers. They may be entitled to delude themselves, but to delude others is why I hold them in contempt.

The top 15 have no such excuse. When I get some time and still feel like doing it, I'll list each of the 15 that I have known personally and provide my view as to what they 'know'.

That said, I am not disagreeing with you. I would like to think some of the 15 are not in on the scam. It is just a very great stretch. Some, such as Elder Nelson may just choose to ignore it all, so that he does not feel he is committing a fraud. But Monson, Hales, Oaks, Holland and Eyring know for sure. Perry will not be bothered either way and Packer (well I have said enough pro tem).

Tom



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 04:36PM by anointedone.

I think this is close to the root of the situation. At every stage up to the top 15, they are tasked with obedience and being a good shepherd to their charges. They are not in charge of doctrine, running the church, or providing answers to thorny questions. They are tasked with obedience!

Once you get to the top, your responsibilities change. You are now tasked with making things work. This means answering to the day to day problems as there is no one to kick them up to. You're it. And yet they know there are no answers. There never have been, but it didn't used to be their problem. Now it is. That is when they decide they'd rather keep people in by lying to them, than ever admit that no one is wearing any clothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/15/2014 04:42PM by Devoted Exmo.

Well stated.

Tom,
It's a very interesting point of discussion and I appreciate your unique insights. I guess I look at some of these lower level leaders that we know (perhaps including your own son too), people that are intelligent, well meaning, aware of the issues and yet choose to/brainwash themselves to still believe.

Perhaps these mostly good, but vastly misguided people give me some degree of hope (for those of my friends and family still trapped) that not all those at the highest levels are fully aware of the scam and that at least a few are genuine in their faith and testimony - not that this is in any way excusable, but I guess the difference is that self-delusion in the face of facts is shoddy & pitiful, but willingly perpetuating something that you know 100% to be a scam is criminal.

I look forward to your future post on personal interactions with the 15 when you get a chance.

I agree that there is a difference between believing that there are no good answers and believing that it's a scam. And I agree that we cannnot say that we know 100% that all know it is a scam (though I think that, at this point, anointedone is right; it strains credulity to think otherwise).

My thinking is this:

(1) The weaker assertion that they believe that there are no good answers seems virtually certain, even if the stronger assertion that they know it is a scam is not. The weaker assertion is witnessed by the lack of forthcoming answers, the way in which questioners are handled (seen as threatening), the bizarre, unattributed essays, etc.

(2) But even though this is the weaker of the two claims, it is still devastating. Why? Because it makes them like the rest of humanity. Largely clueless. And they can't afford to be seen as clueless. Especially not on issues related to God, salvation, and His church. Their very reason for being is supposed to be that they aren't like the rest of us. They are supposed to know things.

To me the whole weaker this and that, they know issues but choose to stay ignorant, blah, blah, blah is just all the same thing. They are lying when they say they know the church is god's one true church.

As Tom said, they take on the responsibility themselves to define and teach and witness the doctrine. That means they have a responsibility to make certain that what they say is true. They are not the followers, they are the leaders. If they come upon difficulties, they have the responsibility to resolve them to their satisfaction and the satisfaction of those they teach. Instead, the leaders of the Mormon church hide, distract and even change documents to keep the followers in line. When someone is accused of a crime, evidence of trying to hide and lie about the facts is taken as evidence that the accused knows they did something wrong.

YES! The cover up proves the guilt. They know.

For guys that are supposedly lead by Jesus, who have extra special spiritual abilities and all that crap, they seem to always be at a loss when it comes to dealing with thorny issues. Would Jesus flounder about, blustering and threatening?

There is no question in my mind these men know what they are doing and they know it is wrong. I don't know how they justify to themselves, but I'm sure they do somehow. If some of the things we hear are true, like signing over their assets or getting $1 million+ "forgivable" loans, the church may have them by the financial short hairs. Still that is no excuse for the suffering they cause. I would dearly love for one to fear that there may be a God and finally come clean.

The only way these church broke apostles and prophets are actually going to see Jesus is if they take 7 grams of Magic mushrooms.

Then they can see God just like the prophets of old....

Of course these old fools know it is a scam and we can say that with confidence because....

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE $$$ AND PROTECTING THE CORPORATION....rather then serving the Lord by serving his children.

You do not ride around in Million dollar Audi Security 8 and fly first class or on private jets living in million dollar housing and still believe it has anything to do actually with being Christlike or an apostle of Christ.

Sure they believed it once...but know they are on the other side of the curtain and took the $$$ to perpetuate the long con.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/2014 09:13PM by whatiswanted.

“Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.”

Winston Churchill

Mormons are the kind of people who keep dishonest used-car salesmen in business.

Christianity emerged from syncretism of mystery cults. Keeping information away from the masses is critical. People were once burned at the stake for reading the bible, which was reserved for the elite church leaders only.

It has always worked on the mushroom principle. Keep 'em in the dark and feed 'em BS. The other defense against unwanted information is to say "The adversary provides false information outside our approved reading." That isn't working any more because people are more educated and realize how secular written history works and how to analyze it.

I'm actually surprised that LDS authorities don't pull out the "You have to accept it all on faith" card more often, like the Catholics and others do. I think they themselves do not operate on faith, so it doesn't occur to them. They are faking it. I saw it in Holland's eyes during the British TV interview.

I have to agree they know it's a fraud. I grew up in Ballards home ward and he spoke at my grandmother's funeral not to long ago. Had I been a believer I wouldn't have seen it, but looking at it with fresh eyes it was unmistakable. When he spoke as an "apostle", it was just so obvious there was no sincerity there. You could see it in his eyes and hear it in his voice. It was a very strange experience for me.