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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 09:23AM

Last Saturday I was on the same flight path that I was on about 19 years ago when I returned home to RM glory in Utah. A family was sitting next to me on the plane as we prepared for takeoff and I learned they lived in one of my mission's areas. They were coming to Utah for a week-long ski trip where they'd spend 4 days skiing and the rest of the time resting & soaking in a new culture. They mentioned that they didn't know any Mormons and wanted to know if I was a Mormon.

I explained to them that I used to be a Mormon, that I had been a missionary in their area for 2 years, spent some time in their town, taught at the MTC, etc. They were curious to know why I left. I explained that for me it all started because I was sick/tired of anti-Mormon information causing my best investigators on my mission and later as a church leader to stop investigating the church. So in 1999 I decided I'd start putting together a web page to help answer the misinformation so that honest people could see through the lies and still seek the truth. Then in doing my research I discovered that I was wrong and that the fundamental tipping point was my belief changing that the BoM went from being non-fiction to fiction.

I gave them a brief overview of the BoM story from the Tower of Babel -> Jaredites & their destruction -> Lehi/Jerusalem -> bad people getting dark skin -> good people becoming wicked so bad people kill them all -> American Indians today. Basically the evidences of archaeology, anthropology, linguists, and geneticists contradict this and its now akin to calling the world flat or Santa's Village a real place on the North Pole to say that the BoM is non-fiction. I have nothing against the reindeer/Santa just as I have nothing against the never-existent boyhood heroes of mine from the BoM.

They were white BTW and very fascinated to learn about the dark skin curse & especially when I explained how in 1831 Joseph Smith got a revelation on how the Mormon men would marry squaws to turn the Lamanites (Indians) white/delightsome instead of dark/loathsome. They told me they planned to visit the Beehive House and wanted to know of some other places. I encouraged them to go to Temple Square but warned them that they'll be given lots of testimonies, feel good stories about Jesus, etc. unless they make sure the guides know up front that they're in a big hurry and need the short tour.

A man in the row in front of us returned from the restroom and then said something like: "I want you to know that he (pointing to me) isn't telling you the truth. You can learn the truth." Then he gave me a condescending, rebuking look. They were dumbfounded by his reaction. I suggested to them that they shouldn't take my word on any of this. If they decide to become believing Mormons then that's their choice I suppose. I really had to work hard to keep my temple covenant to avoid loud laughter because to me the TBM's look so silly/foolish whenever they do things like that man did.

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Posted by: Greyfort ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 09:36AM

LOL Yeah. He probably did more to make sure that they keep away.

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Posted by: JoD3:360 ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 09:37AM

That guy who rebuked you just came back from M'ing in the restroom.

Either that or had to pray for strength to rebuke you.

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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 09:45AM

I don't know why I almost always "turn the other cheek" when confronted by TBM apologists who don't really know what they're talking about. They are certainly very conflicted for sure when they face exmos like me. I should know this because I used to be so much like them. I sure felt conflicted when I first saw this message board and quickly discovered there were many people here who didn't hate the church, knew a lot about the church, and obviously had been Mormons.

But I've also learned that most Mormons don't really do any serious, deep thinking. I come from a very large family. Most of them have NEVER asked any questions of me on why I no longer believe. Its a system that does a very good job of programming people to think "inside the box".

I think for me why it was easier to escape was fourfold.
1. I've never been in an "eternal marriage" as I always have had an emotional foot out the door in marriage from day one.
2. I work in a profession where success is only really possible by questioning everything and always trying to "think outside the box". Thus when I ran across church issues I found it easy to look at all sides & points of view to analyze the situation.
3. I spent most of my 10 TBM adult years in church leadership positions or as a missionary in roles that kept me out of the classrooms. I missed out on so many of the well-correlated lessons designed to make me a drone ;) I made up for it during my last year of activity by attending way too many of those boring lessons. No wonder the men always fall asleep ;)
4. I planned to spend the rest of my life doing missionary work (either full-time or as a volunteer or in callings) and I knew that I needed to be prepared to help investigators & missionaries answer questions that would come. So I knew that (at least for me) ignoring the issues wasn't a realistic option. I knew that I couldn't address/answer any questions honestly unless I did my homework. And I also felt it was important to NOT commit the sins of omission that I see so many missionaries/members do on church history today. They resolve concerns by their ignorant lies as they give pat answers that have nothing to do with reality and everything to do with behaving like used car salesmen.

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Posted by: Skunk Puppet ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 09:59AM

Plus, he didn't offer any "proof" of the veracity of Mormonism to the ppl you were talking to. Just called you a liar. What a maroon.

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Posted by: alex71ut ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:11AM

The guy in front of me basically gave a very weak general testimony whose central message was that I was a liar. And he gave NO specific examples on what I was "lying about".

One thing I did concede to them was that I really could be wrong. Santa might actually have a village at the North Pole. The Book of Mormon actually could be true. Potentially I could be deceived about many things. Satan could be one severely cunning shithead ;) But one thing I absolutely know is that the LDS church never gives any official guidance/assistance on any issues related to Book of Mormon historicity. Whenever I tell people the story about my visit with a SP 10 years ago it reminds me of why I'm free. I asked the SP a simple question "have you received any official guidance on Book of Mormon historicity questions from the Brethren". The SP replied "no" and I expressed my desire/willingness to listen earnestly/intently to anything official from the Brethren on this topic in the future. And with that I felt free to move forward in life. If the Brethren don't have time/focus to honestly/sincerely try to address questions dealing with the keystone of their religion then they're obviously ignorant, fakers or just a bunch of mean sickos. And if God wants his church to be run by mean sickos then God can just go ahead and BBQ me right now. But the reality is almost certain that most of the Brethren are just as TBM/ignorant as I was and/or they're very good at faking it.

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Posted by: mav ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:59AM

personal attacks....... It is kind of funny to watch now.

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Posted by: dane ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:17AM

and you remain calm when confronted (as you did), you come out the winner. Thank you for sharing your "rebuke". It's proof positive that you shook your attacker even more than the people you were sharing with.

Perhaps his cog. diss. will cause him enough distress that he will actually start to think. You done good and I am am proud of you!

I would need to practice staying calm and resisting the urge to strike back (weakening my arguments) when the fatal blows have been delivered through my congeniality.

Please keep sharing your story. It deserves much more exposure. (You can bet your attacker is sharing his and each time he does, it just tears him apart more.

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:36AM

"You have no power here! Begone, before somebody drops a house on you, too!"

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 03:24PM


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Posted by: Quoth the Raven "Nevermo" ( )
Date: April 03, 2011 12:10AM

wine country girl Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "You have no power here! Begone, before somebody
> drops a house on you, too!"


LOL. Love your sense of humor!

Great line. Especially since one of the running jokes at the Washington DC temple is the graffiti on the overpass before the temple that reads "Surrender Dorothy!".


http://www.mormonstoday.com/011207/D1WashDCTemple01.shtml

WASHINGTON, DC -- If you visit the Washington DC Temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints often, you've probably seen it. On a railroad bridge, as you approach the Temple from the East on the Capital Beltway, is scrawled in graffiti words that say so much about how the Temple is misunderstood. "Surrender Dorothy" they read.

Or at least they did, and probably will again. For more than 20 years, if this reporter remembers correctly, the words have adorned that bridge, just as a driver gets his first glimpse of the Temple rising up out of the ground as you top a hill. Oz is appearing before your eyes.

"I hear people talk about our temple as though we were Disneyland or something like that," said temple administrator John Laing, who laughs at the graffiti. Laing says he, and many other Church members, frequently hears fairy-tale comments when he tells acquaintances that he mentions the Temple. But, he adds, most LDS Church members in the area laugh too, "We find it kind of amusing that people don't know any more about us than that." But he doesn't want to encourage the graffiti, but only because it defaces property, not because of the Temple.

The words aren't always there. Periodically the Maryland State Highway Administration removes the message, and they were there again at 10 a.m. last Friday, removing the latest iteration, "We've fought an uphill battle for years with people putting graffiti on that bridge," said state highway spokesman David Buck. The maintenance crew last week had to shut down two lanes of traffic for about an hour while workers scrubbed the yellow spray paint from the bridge. And its sometimes the same workers that remove the graffiti each time, Ronald Shifflett says he remembers clearing the words five years ago, and again two years ago

Buck admits that the Highway Administration doesn't remove everything put on bridges and along roadways. Since September 11th, signs, flags and other messages have proliferated along the highways, and the agency has had to determine which ones must go, "It's a case-by-case thing," Buck said. "I think anything that poses a distraction we want to take down."

Apparently they consider "Surrender Dorothy" a distraction, because they keep cleaning it off the bridge. But even so, they don't clean it off as often as they would like, "We don't want to just close the Beltway over and over again," Buck said. "We hope people won't continue to do this."

Both the Temple and the graffiti are in prime spots. The Beltway loops around the building in a nearly 180-degree circle. And coming from the East, the building seems to rise out of the ground, right before you see the bridge. The Highway Administration says that some 260,000 cars pass the Temple, and the graffiti, each day.

For the Temple, at least, its good advertising. Laing says that people often stop by the Temple because they have seen the building from the Beltway. And, he adds, the Temple is equiped to deal with that, "When they don't know you, people seem to think you resemble Oz." he said. "That's why we have a visitor's center."

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Posted by: shannon ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:55AM

Great story!

;o)

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Posted by: Tauna ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:59AM

Of course in his story, you will admit that you really believe that the BOM is true and that you just left the church because you wanted to drink coffee. Then the couple that was sitting by you will tell him that they felt the spirit when he told them that you were a 'liar, liar pants on fire'.

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Posted by: apikoros ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 03:53PM

Tauna, in his testimony he'll no doubt identify you as Mick Jagger, Ozzy Osbourne, or some other 'devil worshipper.' Some anonymous guy on a plane doesn't pack the same punch as an easily-identifiable representative of the 'dark side.' He will immediately boost hundreds of testimonies through his fearless denunciation of you, and become an instant hero in his stake.

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Posted by: worldwatcher ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 11:04AM

I'm surprised he didn't intone, "By the power of my Melchizedek Priesthood I rebuke you"...with his arm held to the square...

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Posted by: Guy Noir, Private Eye ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 11:19AM

I hadn't heard th one about MoMen (being told to) marrying "indian" (Native Americans, First Nation) people so that children (coming generations) would become 'White & Delightsome' (yeah Right)...

Is that documented? Where?

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Posted by: caedmon ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 03:45PM

Guy Noir, Private Eye Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I hadn't heard th one about MoMen (being told to)
> marrying "indian" (Native Americans, First Nation)
> people so that children (coming generations) would
> become 'White & Delightsome' (yeah Right)...
>
> Is that documented? Where?

REVELATION RECEIVED WEST OF JACKSON COUNTY, MISSOURI, ON 17 JULY 1831

In July 1831 after the arrival of Joseph Smith, Jr., and others in Jackson County, Missouri, plans were made to preach to the Native Americans. Smith received a directive on intermarriage with the Indians. At a later date William W. Phelps wrote, evidently from memory, what he claimed was part or the substance of this revelation:


"....Verily I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state, knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my holy priesthood. but ye shall know when ye receive a fulness by reason of the anointing: For it is my will, that in time, ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites, that their posterity may become white, delightsome and Just, for even now their females are more virtuous than the gentiles."


http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/indianpolygamyrevelation.htm

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Posted by: anybody ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 11:50PM

Hmm...now this is interesting. Being part red Native American puts you on the "white and delightsome" track whilst being part black African American does not:

"The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. 'No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood' (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a 'Nation of Priesthood holders'." (Mark E. Petersen, 1954).

I suppose that Joseph "I've-Just-Got-To-Have-Sex-With-You-Right-Now" Smith was merely interested in another possible group to be celestial wives.

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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 03:22PM

What's worse is that someone would do this because of an opinion on religion. : (

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Posted by: wine country girl ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 10:16PM


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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: April 03, 2011 10:51AM


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Posted by: angsty ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 05:06PM

That guy probably just single-handedly guaranteed that those folks will never take Mormonism seriously. Bless him.

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Posted by: ontheDownLow ( )
Date: April 02, 2011 05:32PM

The same thing happened to me on both sides of the coin. When I was tbm I would get upset at anything that appeared to anti-rederick. Now, I am experiencing the same by my family who is trying to attack my personal integrity. My bro said I was never obeying the rules on my mission and that I was luke warm at best. Its funny, I had the most baptisms of all the missionaries that served in my immediate family. Also, 2 that I know of served missions. In addition, I baptised a family who is serving in the bishopric and RS.

At any rate, I have also noticed a profound hypocracy in my family. I always used to get upset in church about the lesson on charity and how it starts in the home first. I got a super TBM bro in UT who host poor folks from 3rd world nations to live in their home and so forth. Yet they got a bro that is in dire need of employment and has been for a long while. Not one phone call. Not an e-mail to ask if they can circulate my resume. They just avoid me. But expect me to be tbm too. Its a sick hypocracy. Its hard to see through it while your in it though.

Props to Alex71ut. I did basically the same thing. I got tired of anti-propoganda. I was good and dueling in the bible. This time however, I was using the apologetics website to justify the blacks and the preisthood and polygamy and then I ran into a hateful speech given at byu in 1954 and polyandry. I was stunned to say the least.

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Posted by: lissie ( )
Date: April 03, 2011 11:02AM

I have never heard about that revelation to Joseph Smith about marrying Native American women so they can become white and delightsome.

I am especially interested in this topic, do you have any references where I could read more about this??

Thanks :)

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