Lots of comments on the original post (http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1304556). Just a few replies.

With regards to the protests that I shouldn't share opinions on what "self-respecting women" ought to do on grounds I'm a man - if we applied that very same logic to other situations, we should have to say that *women* should never share opinions on how "self-respecting men" should behave; or perhaps, any men, anywhere. And that, of course, would include the many complaints that women have about the all-male Mormon priesthood. That would silence Katy Kelly herself.

So I disagree with this view. We are all human; we are allowed to share views; and some Stalinist insinuation that a member of the opposite sex should shut up on an issue only because they are a member of the opposite sex is unfair and unreasonable.

In this case, we have a movement led by a woman who continues to spiritually fellate a sex predator by repeatedly announcing how sincerely she believes in him and his demeaning, idiot religion - which has a shameful history of the most outrageous sexism, racism, and control-freakism - and how much she wants to keep on being a member of it. (Her male followers, the Dehlins of the world, are doing the same). And for all those people who keep typing on here that they are "certain" that Kate Kelly knows it's a fraud, Kelly herself keeps saying she's a sincere believer. NO, this is not all a big strategy to bring the church down. She and her followers are still sincerely under the impression that Joseph Smith's religion is real; and their behaviour is granting validity to an entity which should be denied it by everyone.

This is my complaint. I don't want to see a female slave talking about how slavery's great, how she wants to remain a slave, how God made slavery, how God wants her Master to be her Master, how she loves the meager rations and long work hours and beatings...but wonders if there's a way the overseer could stop raping her quite as often? It's demeaning. It implies total brainwashing. It grants validity to a totally illegitimate institution. CLEARLY, that woman (and the men who support her) is missing something important. If they want to be slaves, great - if they want to remain slaves because they are still under the mistaken impression that "God wants them to be slaves", because their rapist slavemaster told them as much and they believe him, yes, I have a problem with that. And so should everyone on here. It doesn't matter that I have a penis, just like it doesn't matter that you have a vagina. We have brains, and hearts. That's what matters.

In a way, THIS is the big moment for the Katy Kellys and John Dehlins of the world. This is their moment to stand up and say, "You know...I've loved being a Mormon; but I'm not going to go on. This religion is not what I thought it was, and not what I want it to be. And so, with sorrow in my heart, but with full determination in the rightness of my decision, I walk away from it. I excommunicate the demeaning, fraudulent, sexist, racist, control freak, spiritually abusive institution that is Mormonism; it does not excommunicate me".

But what instead I am hearing is "sobs" (Katy Kelly's own word), and plea to be allowed to remain in a spiritually abusive, sexist organization, founded by a sex predator and borderline pedophile.

That is self-abasing behaviour, and I don't like it, and neither should anyone on here. It shows that Kelly (and Dehlin) have been *broken* by this thing, like Winston is broken by Big Brother at the end of "1984". They love the bully; they only love the bully to bully them a bit less. Screw that.

Whether a critic has a penis or a vagina doesn't matter. The spiritual abuse by Mormonism, and its validation, does. We ought to be united on that - "Katy and John, we sympathize with your struggle, but we do not sympathize with you granting validity to a fraudulent, abusive organization. It does not deserve you, and you should leave". It's that simple.

Just my two cents.

"Okay, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man."

--The Dude

You can have your opinion, but don't try and tell me what mine should be.

Agree, love the people but think they are idiots for their subjecting themselves to a corrupt corporation that cares only about MONEY!

I was once just as critical of John Dehlin - I would still like to see him and his family leave - however, over the years I gained more empathy and understanding of what he sees as his mission and the positive affect he has had on people both in and out of Mormonism.

I've been on the fence about Kate Kelly, and agree with much of what you state here, however, to seek understanding and empathy for one's situation and circumstances is more important than forcing them to accept my views.

Tal Bachman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Katy and John, we sympathize with your struggle,
> but we do not sympathize with you granting
> validity to a fraudulent, abusive organization. It
> does not deserve you, and you should leave".

I believe it deserves them both. Them and Rock Waterman and Denis Snuffer, and, and, and even Michael Quinn with whom I have the most sympathy unfortunately for me. At least he researched the mess that is LDS Inc. and probably should best know better than try to be a Mormon.

Anyone who has captured the public eye and knows that how they captured it was with LDS Inc. should know better than calling foul when their leaders call foul play on their own court. Trying to go for the gold on the court of love seems exceptionally futile and tells me that the people who try it deserve to stay tethered to their mothership - even in excommunication.

Tal, I took offense to people on this board insinuating that just because you aren't a woman, that you can't have a valid opinion about this.

Dogzilla especially loves to tell men on this board that we are "misogynistic and condescending" and that our "conditioning runs too deep" in order to marginalize us and invalidate us. What she doesn't understand is that for her, equality isn't enough. We must submit to her opinions because she can pull the sexist card out on us and invalidate us. I appreciate very much that you aren't falling for it. She is as much a misandrist as any misogynist I have seen on this board. Always quick to tell men that they they can't have a voice or are invalid because of their penis.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2014 04:33PM by braindead.

#NotAllMyPosts

I'm a self respecting gay man.

I was raised in this cult which abuses gay children and youth.

A quarter of a century after leaving the cult, I still deal with the brainwashing and torture of being gay and brought up in this evil cult.

I support Ordain Women because it has done massive damage to the Fucking Cult in a way that a rabid anti-Mormon like myself couldn't do.

I support Ordain Women because I believe that just by its existence it gives hope to girls suffering their second class status in the cult.

I support Ordain Women because it pisses off misogynistic Mormon men.

I support Ordain Women because men are happy to continue to enjoy their unearned position if privilege in the cult.

I support Ordain Women because it had brought enormous negative press to the Mormon cult.

I support Ordain Women because it is giving Mormon women a reason to question the cult and its Leaders.

I support Ordain Women because it forced the cult to excommunicate Kate Kelly, which will in turn further damage Mormonism.

I support Ordain Women because anyone reading the headlines in the part few days will equate Mormonism with Sexism.

I support Ordain Women for this and many other reasons.

I support Ordain Women, and I'm a self-respecting gay exmormon man.

Amen brother!!!

I agree with every single point.

I like and agree with your list, Sonoma. Allow me to add something to the "many other reasons":

If women had the priest-hood no single mother need be bullied into marrying a priesthood-holding asshole just so she has "the priesthood in the home." I've seen this and the ruined lives of the son and mother still sickens me.


The essential point in this discussion, made by others in other threads, is to distinguish between the metaphysical and temporal powers of the LDSinc priesthood.

Human

Ers"

Absolutely no man who has the intellectual hubris
To presume it is their logical right
To tell any woman they must leave their home and people rather
Than strive to improve it or themselves & their way if life within their home; it is their birthright

Who is it with the hubris to demand or make any woman cast out, a wanderer between tribes with no nation-where they had a home & desire to remodel it, and if a wall should crumble plan with a committee (of women) & rebuild it, now that they see it is faulty, with improvements.

Some who are all or nothing, black and white absolutist non abstract thinkers think one must abandon everything because it is yet imperfect; where as much more sbstract thinkers who are not concrete, not all or nothing , not black and white thinkers - see and say : this is my home, my birthright has been obscurred by the less enlightened;
No more candles behind drawn curtains, private praying to hesvenly mother , standing healing behind my high priest brother sending my energy through him into the circle - ENOUGH !

It is my time , my tribe. My home & it is time to be perfected



That

Habitat,

And if Opray winfrey, or Madonna, or Michael Jackson rose from the grave to oppose this, or the president of the United States, or the Pope, or the manager of my employer, or Martin Luther King Himself csme back to speak on it, or a family godfather tried to silence me, or every cheer leader & popular person locally, or a prison gang leader tried yo pressure me, or the president of the mirmon church , or the greatest tenor operatic singer alive today, or even a drug lord, or my supervisor at work-

Wanted me based on their logic, power, money, fame, or fear to persuade or coerce me to no longer support O W and priesthood for women in the Catholic church, and full civil rights for women in the Muslim world-

What glowing glittering prominant pretense of some special reason to bow down do you have for me , my husband friends or family-


It appears we would be ptotesting politically in differing places

Ordain womens time is Now. Lds women shining a holy light with their righteous cause on mysogeny and sexism


Without the imposition of every lds female teen and woman to leave the church because we disagree ! Let female voices pkant the seeds which foster greater change casting a curse upon mysoganists from within until none can throw them out; for so many rise up against them theyd have to import women to birth their children that speak another language in order to live with them / sexist men .

.....neither Tal nor any other Ex-Mormon is telling Kate Kelley to "leave her home and people." Her "home"---the LDS church---KICKED HER OUT. They don't want her. It's no longer her home.
Kate can't "strive to improve" Mormonism; the church leaders have heard and rejected her attempts to do so.

One of the biggest problems many Ex-Mormons have is lack of support from their spouses and/or extended families. From what I have read, Kate Kelley's husband and parents fully support her actions. Now that she has been kicked out of the church, those people are her "home and people," and the ones whom she'll have to rely on for support for the rest of her life.

The faster Kate Kelley stops trying to make her abusive lover (the church) accept her and treat her right, the faster she can get on with what will hopefully will be a productive and happy life.

"Kate can't "strive to improve" Mormonism; the church leaders have heard and rejected her attempts to do so."

And on top of that, Kate is fighting against the women. The majority of LDS women don't want the priesthood. More LDS women oppose what Kate is doing than the men.

See page 54 of this study.
http://www.pewforum.org/files/2012/01/Mormons-in-America.pdf

You can't the Mormon church from the inside.

http://exmormon.org/phorum/read.php?2,1295813,1295813#msg-1295813

The best way to effect changes in Mormonism is to resign from it. Mormonism is an organization founded on fraud. You can't possibly "improve" it, any more than you can "improve" Scientology or the Watchtower Society.

As Jesus said, you can't put new wine into old bottles.

In Kates crusade. Every one whose personal catch 22 and "mama thats not fair" has been promoted, motivated, with the OW organization

And let the walls crumble from within unless true change begins

These seeds have been sprinkled throughout a generation of ym and yw, and ya s ; absolutely they will not " bow (their) heads and say 'yes' " forever

Not in this life time / OW cast them a life line , and new line cast on into their minds just as sure as she was crochet ing
She cast on another stitch yw snd ym and ya s can finish knitting the row themselves but kate and O W making a scene is launching a new meme young members can seamlessly follow this thread

I cant wait to hear about next falls socatic seminars in some secondary schools based on this sequence of events ! We need to link and archive articles and connect it to classics , lit, snd incidents in history for curticulum units to explore it / list stsndards taught

So, if this was the 1970's, you would be advocating against black men getting the priesthood?

I would prefer it if they all left the church.

I would prefer it if everyone left the church.

But I'm not going to "should" them.

I don't know a single woman that wants a man to "should" all over them.

Although I'm sure that there are a few kinky ones...

I should myself laughing.

I hate when people "should" on me. It's disgusting.

I find Tal's characterization of KK as fellatious to be erroneous. It's simplistic (not to mention rude and degrading in itself). And the assertion that KK is a slave talking about how great is her slavery seems to miss the obvious point that she was excommunicated for logding a complaint against the so-called "slavery."

If you want intelligent people to accept your position, you cannot base your argument on clearly exaggerted premises. A large part of the OP's post is nothing but argument by hyperbole.

"Fellatious" would imply something entirely different.

It's not about holding the priesthood in it self. It's about the power that goes to the heads of priesthood holders. It's about the power and control that is rained down upon women because of the mindset the priesthood holds in the church. I don't think women necessarily want the priesthood in it self. It's the treatment of being equal. Treatment is the main statement here. A priesthood holder in the home means he is the dominant force in the home, meaning wife is not equal. They are taught this and treat wives as such. it is seen and FELT by every women within the church. From childhood up to adult. It's the "less then" mentality that the church teaches by it's actions, lessons, all women answer to the men / priesthood holder in all things pertaining to the church. It's the women being treated as children where they must ask and answer to daddy in all things. It's hurtful when they should be able to make decisions on their calling, home-life equal that that of a male in the same situation.

Oh geesh, *Dr. Love,* give it a rest! I can't imagine why you think Mormon women would want to go from being lectured and controlled by the Brethren to being lectured and controlled by you! I have already figured out that post Mormonism as defined by the boards is as virulently sexist as the Mormon Church -- I don't need you to show up here to underline and bold it!

Do you imagine for one minute you are any different from Jeffrey Holland? You and Holland! Twins separated at birth!

Please do not forget that excommunicating Kate Kelly is "loving" her. And here you are -- to show all us women your love! Please do not forget that women are treated unequally in the Mormon Church to show them -- how equal they are! So you have come to set us free -- by telling us what to do. In the wonderful double-speak of Mormonism -- how original!


I am genuinely sorry you and Mormonism had some falling out -- because you seem such a good match. There really aren't a lot of places left in the world for men who act like Mormons -- except -- well -- in Mormonism.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/25/2014 04:30PM by janeeliot.

I should myself laughing - again. "Should" this be called a Dr. Love bombing?

I guess it's kinda cute you have convinced yourself you are not as afraid of Kate Kelly as the Mormon hierarchy is. But only KINDA.

Sonoma nailed it. I couldn't do what Kelly is doing, but more power to her if that is her approach to the problem of LDS Inc's sexism. There is more than one way to attack a problem. Looks like OW has gotten some traction.

And she hasn't lost her ability to put pressure on LDS Inc because she has been exed. If anything, it is, at least for the time being, and perhaps for some time to come, enhanced.

Accusing anyone who doesn't agree with you of not being self-respecting (or, alternately, deluded) sounds suspiciously like "The ExMo Prophets have spoken; the thinking has been done."

Really? Having your opinion is one thing. Having someone else's for them is quite another.

My journey out of the morg was a process instead of an immediate decision to leave. Part of that process was attending gatherings with my married Mormon female friends where we blessed each other, prayed to Heavenly Mother, and truly felt and believed we had the Holy Spirit to guide us.

We discussed historical moments in the morg when women were given the priesthood, and felt those blessings never really left, but that men in charge were a bit misguided. We also didn't have the benefit of the internet, like we do now, but we had books that many in the group read, and shared, about doctrinal issues relating to women and the priesthood.

In Relief Society we had massive discussions filled with crying and anger between those of us who felt the church should move in a different direction and those who liked it the way it was. One of my friends even prayed to Heavenly Mother in Sacrament Meeting while those of us in the congregation smiled. The bishop didn't even flinch.

But it was during that time of wonderment that I questioned the truth of the church to my husband one night. Since his response was silence, I stopped talking about my doubts until we left that ward and moved back to Utah.

From the time I expressed my doubt to the time I left the church, two years had lapsed. They were two years for me that were necessary to embrace my new life out of the church. And it was a difficult transition.

I fully understand Kate Kelly because I believed many of those things she's been fighting for. I also understand her because she sounds like so many of my Mormon friends who have remained in the church even though they have issues with it and its history. It's the only culture or life they've known, but for me as a convert to Mormonism, it was relatively easier leaving.

She'll hopefully get to the same place where she realizes the whole thing is a fraud, but it may take some time to get there, like it did for me. Sometimes the process takes a little longer.

I think the majority of exmos support Ordain Women simply because it's creating large amounts of bad publicity to the church and is leading people out. Not because they support the cause.

I agree with the OPs remarks, but I understand that there are those with different personalities who are (unfortunately) going to see things differently.

Personally, I think we'd all be better off without the religion and with something that contained most of the positive aspects without making the claim that everything is direct by God.