I had a friend to converted to TSCC. I, too, was a convert. When she started questioning, she went to visit M. Russell Ballard, who was one of her favorites...she LOVED all of his conference talks. etc. She managed to befriend quite a few "higher ups."

When asking him about the questions she had, the conversation got a bit heated and he said, "Converts are irrelevant." I believe her response was, "Huh?"

He went on to say that, unless you were descended from/related to JS, BY or the First Quorum of the 12, you did NOT have a particularly spectacular pre-existence and were disposable. She couldn't believe it? "You're saying I'm irrelevant?" His response, "All converts are irrelevant." (And here the Missionaries told us we were special...)

Anyone else every hear that? I have seen the correspondence between Ballard and my friend (along with a few others that I found interesting), so I believe this to be true. (You know, like the BOM...I have a warm fuzzy feeling about the truthfulness of her statements.LOL)

Again, anyone else ever hear anything like this?

I just couldn't believe that he said it out loud!

I've heard something very close to that. I took a philosophy class from Chauncey Riddle in the late 1960s. I believe he was head of the BYU philosophy department at the time, thought he might have been dean of the grad school.

It was in some ways one of my favorite classes. I already had doubts, but he convinced me that if someone as smart as he could make sense of Mormonism, maybe it was true.

I even remember the TA, Noel Reynolds, who I believe later became some sort of apologist, FARMS or something like that. It was an honors section, so the class was small, which may have made Riddle feel he could say things that were "meat, not milk", since this was mormondom's best and brightest. The BoA papyri had just been discovered and returned to the LDS Church, and Nibley had not yet had a chance to publish his drivel about the papyri, which ultimately lead to my leaving LDS Inc. Electricity was in the air.

Ok, so that's the background. It was late in the semester. He was slathering it on thick about how all the great thinkers of western civilization nibbled about the edges of the Plan of Salvation (later Happiness), but lacked the full picture that Joseph had. Yeah, I ate it up.

Then he made this comment. He said that it would be very difficult, nearly impossible, for someone who was not Born
In the Covenant to enter into the highest level of the CK.

I was not BIC, so let's say his remark made an impression.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 06:53AM by Brother Of Jerry.

I was at a stake youth fireside when the stake president told all of the young men to only marry girls who had been born in the covenant.

I was there with my newly baptised friend.

There were boys and girls at the fireside, but the stake pres said this specifically to tbe boys (I suppose he expected them to be the ones doing the choosing). I was a YW leader, as was my convert friend. It was a wake up moment for me because I felt embarrassed at my friend hearing it.

"I had a friend...."

I have a friend who says this thread is BS

Well that's not a true statement either because converts bring in the money. They'll convert anyone who will bring in money.

Look at how vigorously they go after us if we try to leave, or even just stop taking the discussions.

If someone like Monson comes up here (when he was an Apostle), where almost everyone is a convert, they go on and on about how the converts are the backbone of the Church, yada, yada, yada.

They make all the converts stand up (it's almost everyone in the room) and they gush about them.

They certainly may have a prejudice about us as far as the quality of our spirits goes, but they definitely need us badly.

It might be that members and church authorities have mixed feelings about converts. On the one hand the church goes to a great deal of trouble to gain new converts. On the other, we've had numerous reports that when it comes to finding a Mormon mate, converts are sometimes thought of as being "less than."

I was a convert to the LDS religion. When I went on a mission, my first companion complained because he had been given a convert to teach. When I asked him why that was such a problem for him, he said it was because converts weren't really members of the Church and were only allowed so they could produce children who would be BIC and were, thus, worth having around.

Once somebody accepts that we had a pre-existence and that our actions there determine our state in this world, it pretty much follows that people who are not BIC, are non-white, are physically or mentally handicapped, etc. etc. are people who just didn't measure up in the pre-existence. "Valiant" souls are the people who are being rewarded in this life. Romney vs. Obama? Obviously, Heavenly Father loves Mitt more.

I'm a product of a part-member family (mom BIC, dad nevermo), so neither BIC nor convert. Primary, baptized at 8, deacon at 12, etc.

I was discussing deep doctrine with one of my mission comps one night. He was a Utah BIC but a good guy. My non-BIC background came up and he said in something like wonder, "Elder, what did you do wrong?" meaning, of course, in the pre-existence. He didn't ask in a smug or arrogant tone, but it's clear that's what he truly believed and had been taught. He wasn't being a jerk.

What's messed up about it is that I actually AGREED with him. That was during the short period when I was trying to be a TBM. My reply was simply, "I don't know."

I took no offense to the question then, and really I still don't fault him. He wasn't using it as a weapon against me, and at the time I believed the same thing.

The Mormon church is the spiritual equivalent of the Hindu caste system.

The Hindu caste system is the Mormon equivalent of reincarnation. What makes Mormon's and any caste system work is that there is only one pre-existence. Thus, you are free to disparage anyone born lowly because you can freely punish them for their previous crimes.

The way it works differently, is that the current existence is the pre-existence for the next existence. Christianity can work this way too. Thus, the cause, the lack of valiance, what you "did wrong" in the pre-existence, was failing to behave compassionately toward, and raise up, the lowly. Thus, the lowly are born lowly in order to give a chance to others to gain merit by lifting them from their low status. This also is a thread in Hinduism: as in, if there are no beggars there is no way for non-beggars to gain merit for their next existence, because there is no one to whom they can give alms.

A Jesus-saying is: "What you do for the least of these, that you do unto me." This is a similar view. The we-can-look-down-on-the-low-status fits no thoughtful, consistent view. It's just another excuse for TSCC authoritarianism and abuse, that trickles down to the run-of-the-mill self-righteous.

My convert daughter dated a young man for awhile before his mission. They dated again when he returned. After a few months he dropped her because he was looking for a wife and he, a descendant of Utah pioneers, could "do better" than a convert wife. At least that is what his mother told him.

I was told in blessings that I was a "noble and valiant warrior" in the Pre-Existence. It used to confuse me as to how a woman could be a warrior, but anyway, that's what I was told.

Of course, at the time, I believed it. LOL

Come on people, farmers love their cows and want more but they don't marry them or plan a heavenly life with them in eternity. The top of the cult is an incestuous operation. The rest of the members are a few almosts and a whole lot of cows.

God, I'm glad I never moved to Utah, which was a stupid dream of mine at the time. That attitude just doesn't exist where I live, because we were all converts.

I have heard similar here on the board, though have not observed this in real life. This is why it boggles me why Mormons so aggressively go after converts. Why bother if they are thought so little of? You would think converts would be thought highly of since they had to work harder to "find the truth" than someone merely born into it, but when you factor in how naughty they were in the preexistence to be "punished," you can see where thinking converts are lesser individuals makes sense.

There's some story about two men in the preexistence, where one promises do find the other one later on when on earth. I guess it was known that one would not be BIC. The one guy went on a mission and found and converted this pre-existent brother. Here you see convert being a good thing with a purpose.

You definitely see the typical Mormon "speaking out of both sides of their mouth" situation. You never know what the reality is. They say one thing and do another.

I have heard many stories of the love bombing, and once someone is dunked, all that attention stops and some are even treated poorly. Then you hear about Mormons saying, "She's so nice, she'd make a good Mormon," or "all honest, good people become Mormon," so you just don't know what direction it will go. The last convert I knew did very well in the Mormon church and loved it. She converted as a teen, so I don't know if that made a difference compared to an adult convert.

Yes, it does appear that Mormons aggressively go after converts but it is really a smokescreen for the actual goal of the missionary program which is to retain the missionary as a life-long tithe payer. Any converts are a plus - New workers to pay into the system are great.

Stories like the one you wrote are just Mormon mythology which reinforce the we're so special, only we have the truth belief of the general membership and to apply pressure to go on a mission.

I was only in church 1 1/2 yrs till I left for a mission. One of the sisters that I was in LTM (you can tell this was a long time ago LOL) and on mission with informed me that BIC people were greatly better than converts because if we were more worthy in the preexistence, we would have deserved to have been born in the church. What a self righteous a$$. Oh, what a pi$$er. Had I been halfway emotionally healthy, I would have turned and left right then.

Sometimes I think that perhaps the purpose of the Earth was to produce one or two enlightened individuals and all the rest of the show was just part of extraneous waste and refinery slag necessary to get the gems. God does work in mysterious ways..

This way of thinking is not very deep. It gives very short-shrift to life, and takes much for granted. If you believe there were a few outstanding individuals in history, fine. Listen to them. Listen to what they said--not the con-men and exploiters--the true ones. They themselves don't preach that they're a singularity.

BY descendant, born in the covenant. This just really gave me the self esteem boost I needed today...thanks all you peasants.

I lived in Pakistan for a short while and had a male house keeper. His attitude was that Allah obviously wanted me to be a wealthy, healthy, and rich westerner (albeit an infidel), while Allah wanted him to be a poor struggling Pakistani. He wasn't going to question Allah's actions, but he also knew that God expected me to be generous of "my time and talents" and that the greater burden rested on me to provide for the poor and unfortunate. It is the old feudal bargain.

Yep. That's right. Feudalism. Trickle down. In the 19th Cent, the white man's burden. Nobles Oblige. Thank God for little-d democracy!

Why do you think BICs are treated as royalty when they move into a ward?

To the degree that convert numbers reinforce the faith of the already faithful (and numbers on paper are just fine - no need to see the actual converts or interact with them). The activity rate in Central and South America is 11-25% and no one is complaining. The already faithful are mostly white Americans who live in the Utah and extended area.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 12:32PM by mrtranquility.

Converts ARE relevant...to the bottom dollar of church financies.

What the OP was saying that converts to Church Inc were not relevant to God's plan for Church Inc.

There have been attitudes for years that converted members are not as valuable as those born IN the covenant.

This was painfully evident to me as a newly 19 yo convert within a few months. I was clearly steered away from young men born in the church who showed an interest in me. Even the Bishops son took me out as his "last date" prior to his mission. I found out later that caused an uproar because he didnt take "someone more grounded".

I was prodded by other members to date other converts and shunned when BIC ladies saw BIC boys/men pay attention to me.
(Maybe it was because I did not have that MUSTGETMARRIEDINTEMPLE song drummed in my head yet?)

I was counseled by another that my old life was past me and to make sure not to tempt others with it. I took this stranger aside and asked her what she thought I was going to tempt someone with. (I was shy and modest)

She then made it clear that she thought I had "experimented with sin" prior to baptism. I was so naive and so sad she thought I was a "bad" person. I defended myself and let her know that I was raised by good people, had a clean life before and was still a virgin! The look on her face was priceless..she was just so convinced otherwise.

One of many expereinces that converts are nothing more than necessary numbers to make the church look good.

RMM

That is hard to believe and without myself saying she is making it up, others will, especially TBMs.

Hopefully she is known for her credibility and others are aware of how well-connected she is in that circle.

I imagine he believes such a thing, but I am inclined to do so. I do think one of the appeals to Mormons about Mormonism is that they feel so special having been born a Mormon and so connected to the origin and tradition.

That is why being a Jack or a NOM is a weak moral position. Being the first or one of the first members of a TBM pioneer-stock family is a gift, sometimes a gift of sacrifice to help others, maybe in the next generation to get out.

That's how I have to feel, because that is what I had to do. Perhaps it will make it easier for others to leave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 11:18AM by gentlestrength.

Well, that should be posted for all to see if it is in print. Her writing a story about it would be good too for all to see. It could be the thing to get my "convert" daughter out of the cult.

Converts don't always understand how the process works.

They are targeted and love-bombed into joining Mormonism. Because the morg needs new breeders, free workers and obedient slaves who are willing to fork over 10% without question.

Of course, they are not on par with long term members, especially if they have an accent or a different skin color.

Unless they are quite wealthy, in which case those things do not matter and members suck up to them.

I don't believe Monson or Uchtdorf had pioneer blood (if they did, I'm sure someone would have mentioned it.) Are they disposable?

Last night at dinner with my wife's family, my SIL was talking about a man we were all familiar with and how his wife was caught cheating on him.

SIL's response..."He should have seen this coming, I mean she was a convert, I have nothing against converts, but...you know"

I wouldn't be too surprised if this was actually said. I have heard similar, although not exactly the same, sentiments come from Ballard's own mouth.

There are other members of the Smith family (He's a Ballard and a Smith) who say similar things. I personally know of several. If JS was the next best thing to Jesus, in their mind, then they are important to be in the same family. Some relations to this family consider themselves directly descended from Jesus Christ. Ain't that special?

I have also heard certain members of the Smith family state that they know that they are special, and that the pre-existence is part of the determining factor about going to the celestial kingdom, but they are reluctant to tell others since joining the church and supporting the church will bring them some measure of salvation (not bringing this deep doctrine up is the least they can do not to discourage them), although not the highest level of the highest kingdom.

He's the first one I'd like to see being led away by police in cuffs.

You have to wonder if people like Ballard have ever opened their bible and read the new testament.

I've heard similar things he's said in training meetings to leadership - along the lines that very few will get into the CK but we don't tell people that because they will just get disheartened and not work as hard in 'the kingdom'.

Honestly, what a prick.

I have a close family member who married into the Joseph F. / Joseph Fielding Smith family. I can witness to you that they believe they are royalty and much better than other members of the Church.

I am not a descendent of Hyrum but many of my ancestors joined the Church in 1830. I was raised up in the Church and was taught that those of us descended from the first converts in upstate New York and Vermont were the most righteous and valiant souls in the pre-exisitence, and yes converts were good for tithing but were definitely lower caste.

They believe their blood is literally purer than others' blood.

There was a book called "Saviors on Mount Zion" from Archibald Bennett. Chap. 21 was "A Race of Religious Leaders," in which he demonstrated that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were 6th cousins; that Joseph and Heber Kimball were 5th cousins; and that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Wilford Woodruff, and the Pratts were all descended from the same couple.

Brigham Young is quoted on p. 86:

"I will first set in order before these relations how the families hereafter will be organized. You have heard Joseph say that the people did not know him; he had his eyes on the relation to blood-relations. Some have supposed that he meant spirit, but it was the blood-relation. This is it that he referred to. His descent from Joseph that was sold into Egypt was direct, and the blood was pure in him. That is why the Lord chose him; and we are pure when this blood-strain from Ephraim comes down pure. The decrees of the Almighty will be exalted — that blood which was in him was pure and he had the sole right and lawful power, as he was the legal heir to the blood that has been on the earth and has come down through a pure lineage. The union of various ancestors kept that blood pure."

Purity of blood; race of leaders; sound familiar?

Book of Mordor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Purity of blood; race of leaders; sound familiar?


*shudder* Yeah, scary.

Eliza Webb Young did call him a dangerous dictator.

I took a class from Susan Easton Black at BYU. She said that all of the modern day prophets were related (through John Lothropp) except for two. I believe Hunter was one of them. I don't remember the other.

Just checked Wikipedia and it looks like lots of people are related to Lathropp:

George H. W. Bush
George W. Bush
Millard Fillmore
James A. Garfield
Ulysses S. Grant
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Benedict Arnold
Joseph Smith
Wilford Woodruff
Oliver Cowdery
Parley P. Pratt
Orson Pratt
Jeb Bush
Thomas E. Dewey
Jon Huntsman, Jr.
William W. Kitchin
Sarah Palin
George W. Romney
Mitt Romney

I'd have to look that up, but it may be in the same work you cite. Jesus was polygamous and one of his direct descendants is no other than J. Smith. (so saith the cult)

Is it any wonder why they defend him in spite of his actions?

I have a theory that missionary program is not about creating lifetime members. It is to keep control of the existing base of members. All the hyper-activity of the LDS is designed to reinforce their behavior, not to expand the faith. The high birth rate is sufficient to replace losses. This would explain why they have little to no concern that so many of their converts - upwards of 90% - are gone within two years. This is a very sophisticated form of control.

I am quite certain my born in the church Dad would have taken the fucking moron Ballard to task over those comments when referring to my dear Mom who was born Presbyterian and converted 20 years after she married Dad and went on to be ward RSP while Dad was EQP, HP and served on HC. Dad came from a Utah pioneer family but that never counted for much with him. Strength of character was more important that who you were or thought you were.

Ron Burr

the only thing relevant is your tithing.

Damn straight about the tithing!
I was taught this very racist version of mormonisms plan of salvation where the pre-existence determines your place of birth. For passively resisting the chosen plan, or not so much resisting as fence sitting, you get born somewhere that you will lead a terrible life of suffering, on up the scale to cowardly fighters who get born as nonmembers for not being valiant, and so on up to BIC who got their positions in life by fighting most valiantly.
Grandma made sure to tell me I'm super righteous because my leg got blown off in battle and so I earned a BIC birth and my white skin. We know I lost my leg by the huge strawberry birthmark.

LOL

Well it would be funny if it didn't justify so much racism and classism within TSCC.

True, but it still is funny!

I was born in the church, but not in the covenant because my parents were Mormons who smoked, drank, and had sex with each other before their wedding (at home). They really liked each other and had a great life together.

I had no clue growing up that I was lesser and did the church thing feeling as superior as anybody. Back then and in the mission field, things weren't so judgmental and temples were few and far between, so nobody went. Of course I was proud to be of early pioneer stock on all sides and never forgot that somebody was a convert.

What tickles me now is that I've learned that the kids in our family were not as valiant because mom and dad didn't do the temple marriage. (Mom and Dad were BIC, but not us.)

I've wanted to point out to my super TBM siblings that they were not as valiant in the pre-existence obviously. Maybe that's why they are trying so hard now to toe the line. But that would be mean, wouldn't it? ;)

Tom Phillips broke the mold:

He was a convert.
He was NOT born in the covenant (BIC).
He was NOT a JS or BY or Q12 descendant.

But he made it to the highest degree of LD$ Inc.'s celestial kingdom - didn't he? He received the second anointing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 01:57PM by jiminycricket.

And then he betrayed the church!

I think that you're making the cult's point for them! Lol

I thought the non-valiant in the Pre-Existence were the ones cursed to be born black.

God, why did we ever join that organization? Well, because they don't disclose stuff like that, that's why. *sigh*

I wonder what the Tanner's children did in the pre-existence to warrant being born to apostates? Why were they descendents of Brigham Young and John Tanner, born white and delightsome -- yet ended up with apostates for parents? Were they traitors right at the end of the war in the pre-existence?

Perhaps soon a new essay will appear in which the church denies ever saying that where you were born and who to has anything to do with your worthiness in the pre-existence.

As a BIC white male, I can assure anyone who is not a BIC white male that you inferior.

Don't hate on me, Eloher... Oops Elohim made it that way.

Reincarnation is NOT like the idea of Mormon eliteness. Reincarnation into various circumstances comes from one of two paths....either you are experiencing learning through a Karmic challenge (you're poor, sickly, etc.) because you treated others poorly who were in that position, OR, and this is much more common, you are LEARNING and EXPERIENCING something that is necessary for your progression. In other words, you didn't do anything wrong. Those who treat you like you have done something wrong to merit your poverty or handicap are misguided and stand a good chance of experiencing your situation so that they can understand how wrong they were and learn compassion for those who are less fortunate. The Christian (and Mormon) idea that your position in this life is based on a "pre-existence" where you merited your current life position is simply wrong. The vast differences in our conditions and opportunities cannot be explained with one pre-existance and one lifetime. It beggers the concept of any fairness and leaves many people to turn completely away from a belief in any purpose to their lives or in any higher power at work in our lives. The lack of explanation for the most obvious thing that everyone sees in the world around them everyday of their lives is a huge, gaping, logical hole in Christianity.

The Mormon idea of the pre-existence where one's current life position is merited is not a Christian idea, at least not Catholic. I cannot speak for Protestant beliefs, but the Catholic Church does not teach the pre-mortal existence of souls. While the Catholic Church doesn't definitively state when the soul is created, they do teach the soul is not created prior to conception. The general Catholic understanding is that the soul is created at conception, but it is not definitive.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 03:28PM by tmac.

tmac Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mormon idea of the pre-existence where one's
> current life position is merited is not a
> Christian idea, at least not Catholic. I cannot
> speak for Protestant beliefs, but the Catholic
> Church does not teach the pre-mortal existence of
> souls. While the Catholic Church doesn't
> definitively state when the soul is created, they
> do teach the soul is not created prior to
> conception. The general Catholic understanding is
> that the soul is created at conception, but it is
> not definitive.

It isn't a Protestant or Jewish belief either.

Christians do not believe in a pre-existence of the soul or spirit. They believe the soul comes into existence somewhere between conception and breathing the first breath - opinions vary as to exactly when this happens.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 03:40PM by B'hamster.

In my opinion anyone who would make a statement like that falls into the category of a misogynistic, sanctimonious, hypocritical, egoist who is of dubiuos ancestry and questionable parenthood.

Only my opinion of course

thedesertrat1 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> egoist who is of dubiuos ancestry and questionable
> parenthood.


LOL I see what you mean. Being descended from Joseph Smith or Brigham Young might not be something to brag about.

Was always a closet doubter. Been out of the church about 5 years, 2 years prior to that i barely attended (holidays with family). I was BIC, only in my mid 20s now, and since this has been brought up i remember that my patriarchal blessing does state that i promised many souls in the pre-existence that i would find them, and help convert them. Also, that i would do genealogy and allow for the temple baptisms to occur for those that were counting on me. I remember my mom thinking wow. How valiant. She was so proud. At the time i wasn't really sure i believed it. Looking back i can say, "well, it was their way of trying to make me feel special and they were hopefully thinking it'd set me on a path of missionary and genealogy work... More converts for them." (Couldn't the patriarch look up records and see i was BIC and that my grandma was huge into genealogy? my mom thought that was a sign the lord spoke to the patriarch since he mentioned me carrying on the genealogy work of my family. But i bet he knew in some way or just stated that id help because it could push me to help more with the "work.")

The relevancy of converts is the same as the relevancy of slaves. They are there to breed Mormons, pay tithing, do the grunt work jobs like Scouting and teaching while the elite run the bishoprics and serve in the Stake Relief Society. Mormons go out and find converts like they sent ships to Africa to bring back slaves. Not to make them equal with the plantation owners but to do the work while the owners were lords and masters of all they surveyed. Granted, it's a poor comparison in that nothing really compares to the lot of slaves in early American society for unfair, cruel treatment but I am saying the mindset is similar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2014 02:37PM by CA girl.

you nailed it !