Welcome to Mormon.org chat.
A missionary will be with you shortly.
Agent [Victor] is ready to assist you.
Victor: Hello Jason, how are you doing?
Me: Hi Victor
Me: Fine thank you
Me: I am reading the book of mormon and find it kind interesting
Victor: You're welcome. I'm glad to hear that.
Victor: Oh, what's caught your attention in the Book of Mormon so far?
Me: Could you show me some talks or speeches Joseph Smith gave about the Book of Mormon? I would like to read them
Victor: I could check for some. Let me see what I can find.
Me: cool, I would like to read how he used it in his preaching
Victor: This came up in my search so far. Chapter 4 would have some good examples. http://lds.org/library/display/0,4945,8009-1-4374-1,00.html
Me: Your a missionary. Can you direct me to a talk he gives on the book of mormon peoples? You must be familar with his talk on the Nephites and Lamanites
Victor: As a missionary I typically teach from the scriptures, like the Bible, the Book of Mormon itself, and the Doctrine and convenants. I'm familiar with some of his talks on that topic, but I'm not immediately aware of where to find them.
Me: Glancing through those I do not see any reference Nephites or lamanites
Victor: In chapter 4 of that volume I gave you the link for?
Me: I saw that. But I was wondering if he referenced and spoke of the Nephites and Laminites in his talks? I know he used the Bible a lot
Victor: He was certainly much more familiar with the Bible than the Book of Mormon, since he had grown up with it.
Me: I would like to read his talks and sermons on Alma, Nephi, Samuel and the others. Are there any of those I can read?
Victor: I'm not aware of any talks specifically on them.
Me: Hmmmm....OK
Victor: You might request that from the church history library. http://classic.lds.org/churchhistory/askalibrarian/1,16322,,00.html
Me: I thought since he translated the Book of Mormon and said it was the most correct book he would have used it in talks and speeches.
Victor: He did, but not to the extent we'd expect. He was personally more familiar with the Bible, and was used to using it. He wasn't perfect, that's very clear from the Lord's chastisement of him in the Doctrine and Covenants.
Me: "Wasn't Perfect"? That is a odd thing to say. I was just looking for some speeches and teachings of his.
Me: Why would you say he was not perfect? No one is perfect
Victor: Well, Jesus, but that's getting further from the subject. Does that form to request it from the church history library seem to work so far.
Me: Yes, But it is strange a missionary would not now any talks or speaches he gave on his most important work
Me: Is it possible he actually did not use the Book of Mormon in his talks?
Victor: Limited time to study I guess. I focus more on studying the scriptures themselves and the talks regarding how to have eternal life. No, it's not possible that he didn't use the Book of Mormon in his talks, since he did to an extent.
Victor: The volume I gave you a link for has excerpts from many of his talks.
Me: I would like to read to what extent he used it. I thought your church would be flooded with his teachings on it
Victor: Not all of his teachings on it were recorded either. We do have that limitation.
Me: That link really does not have any talks discussing book of mormon and its teachings
Victor: No, not full length talks just snippets.
Me: Interesting
Victor: "Lectures on Faith" that Joseph Smith gave also has quotes from the Book of Mormon I believe, but I'm not aware of where to obtain a copy online.
Me: I have a copy of that. But your church does not recognize it anymore because it teaches God is a spirit and came to earth received a body and became Jesus. Very trinitarian Joseph was in the beggining
Me: That is lecture 5 btw
Victor: Our church has never officially recognized lectures on faith as scripture, and of course Joseph was very trinitarian in the beginning. He was raised in protestant churches.
Victor: As God gave him more revelation, and he reflected on his experiences and teachings in the Book of Mormon, he understood their relationship differently.
Me: Well he gave those after the first vision to the school of the prophets. They were included in your doctrine and covenants for many years but were removed because your doctrine had changed
Me: I like studying religions so I collect books.
Victor: Awesome. I read through a great deal of journal of discourses before my mission, but I haven't had time for lectures on faith yet.
Victor: It will probably be awhile after my mission before I get to it though.
Me: So did you read where Brigham taught Adam was God in general conference in April 1852? And he said it was revealed to him by revelation
Me: I read the JOD online at BYU website
Victor: Yes, which is rather consistent with what is taught today. Elohim or God the Father, Jehovah who is Christ, and Michael who are Adam, are all three members of the Godhead or simply God.
Victor: *who is Adam.
Victor: They created the earth and Adam is the physical father of all mankind. Even Christ by virtue of being Mary's father.
Me: No no he said God descended to earth to provide physical bodies as Adam. He is the father of the spirit and the physical. Adam he said was God the father fulfilling the population of his planet as mormons will do one day as well
Victor: Right, Adam, who is Michael the archangel as he said in that same talk, came down and is the physical father of us all.
Me: I am well read on the subject and am fully aware Spencer W Kimball says it was a pernicous lie and B. McKonkie said Brigham taught false doctrine
Me: Victor Adam is not a God
Me: Archangels are not gods.
Victor: You are ignoring a paragraph in that same sermon, where Brigham Young clarifes that Elohim is a separate and higher being than Adam.
Victor: Archangels may not be gods in other churches.
Me: Spencer Kimball said the teaching was a lie, which it is so you really should not defend it
Me: I know Brigham taught false doctrine it is throughout the JOD
Victor: We'll have to disagree.
Me: Not a good idea to defend the Adam God theory. It will get you excommunicated
Victor: I've found that Kimball taught that the interpretation that Adam is Elohim is false.
Me: You would not disagree with Spencer Kimball would you?
Victor: I'm disagreeing with your understanding of what he said, which is taken out of context.
Victor: Are you a member of this church?
Me: No but a student of religion
Victor: So you are a poor judge of what will get me excomunicated. I've grown up in this church.
Me: I know very well what gets people excommunicated. Teach Adam was a god in sacrament meeting and see what happens
Me: It is false doctrine, I agree with that
Victor: It is still LDS doctrine that Adam as Micheal the archangel carried out God's instruction in much of the creation of the earth.
Me: You really believe it is true
Victor: I don't believe your interpretation of it is true.
Me: Adam was never a God
Victor: You should read the Pearl of Great Price and it's creation account.
Victor: I need to go though. Would you like me to transfer you to another missionary?
Me: No, thank you. But are you familiar with how the pearl of great price was written?
Victor: Most of it by the same means as Doctrine and Covenants.
Victor: It was recently quoted to great extents by Elder Packer in General conference.
Me: Victor my friend, you are in for a big surprise
Me: But they change their talks after the conference so it is really difficult to get an accurate account of what was said compared to what they write a few days later
Victor: He still quoted it in the printed edition.
Victor: 27So the aGods went down to organize man in their own bimage, in the image of the Gods to form they him, male and female to form they them.
Me: But I will let you go
Me: Goodbye
Victor: Adam was one of those gods. Have a great night.
The chat session has ended.

Woooow. I might have to start trolling that chat for kicks and giggles now.

Wow, this missionary was good at spinning that one. Nice cover for a lie.

"Victor: Yes, which is rather consistent with what is taught today. Elohim or God the Father, Jehovah who is Christ, and Michael who are Adam, are all three members of the Godhead or simply God."

Wow, somehow I missed that one!!!

Beautifull chat. That kid is sure to be on here within a few years once he reads the JOD and his testimoney cracks. That or he will be a future 70.

Excellent job.

Victor: Our church has never officially recognized lectures on faith as scripture, and of course Joseph was very trinitarian in the beginning. He was raised in protestant churches.

Victor: As God gave him more revelation, and he reflected on his experiences and teachings in the Book of Mormon, he understood their relationship differently.

Ummm, I have a question!!

Didn't that glorious revelation in the Grove in 1820 dispel all those false sectarian notions once and for all?

Ummm, I have another question!!
Yes JoD?

Uhh, if JSjr saw the 1820 vision, how come he never incorporated its concept of God into his scriptures, correction of scripture, or even in his revelations prior to the King Follett Discourse?

And, if the Book of Mormon is the most correct, and if a man could get nearer to God by following its teachings, why did he write it with a Trinitarian God after the 1820 vision? Didn't that cause him difficulty?

Is how they claim the church never officially recognize certain things like.

The lectures of Faith even though they were in the 1835 edition of the D&C and accepted as cannon.

It is a interesting time we live in. I always wondered how things like "Adam God" and "Blood Atonement" essentially just disappeared and were denied as I grew up. But now I understand because it is happening currently with the erasing of the "Black were less valiant in the spirit world" doctrine we were all taught.

Before our eyes Mormonism is changing and within its membership they are direct to not speak of the old doctrine and the information is removed from the manuals never to be taught again.

It is amazing to see how they morph and change over the years.

I really don't see how that changed from what B Young said. Not that I think Mormon's believe it the way What is Wanted interpreted this in the chat. Isn't this line after the paragraph What is Wanted quoted still LDS doctrine:
"It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." --JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852
Got to hand it to you, Victor was pretty sly by bringing in the Abraham 4that Packer quoted in General conference last year. Victor was right too, even in the edited version, Packer says "gods" not God when talking about the creation. They didn't excommunicate him. That is still LDS canon even though it's origin is no doubt in question. Most LDS today see Adam as one of those Gods in Abraham 4. Doctrine and Covenants also teaches that they can become gods, and that many like Jacob and Isaac already are. Thy probably feel that Adam is one of those gods too.
It's only been a few years since I've been to the temple, but I'm that was still in there that Adam had that role in creating the Earth, and that would suggest as well that LDS still think that Adam was one of those gods in Abraham 4. Even the entry on Adam in their "Guide to the scriptures" says:
"Adam and Eve should therefore be honored for their role in making our eternal growth possible. Adam is the Ancient of Days and is also known as Michael (Dan. 7; D&C 27:11; 107:53–54; 116; 138:38). He is the archangel and will come again to the earth as the patriarch of the human family, preparatory to the second coming of Jesus Christ (D&C 29:26).
Just saying that what they believe hasn't changed that much. They still think Adam's a god.