I love my kids. Sure, they do things that make me mad sometimes, but I get over it. I don't need a sacrificial lamb to look past my children's shortcomings. When they offend me, I'm quick to forgive. I don't need someone to stand between me and my kids to act as a perfect proxy. I love my kids the way they are and I'm more than willing to forgive.

Why does God require an intermediary?

Hold Your Tapirs Wrote:
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> Why does God require an intermediary?

From our cultural standpoint, this is a specifically Christian concept...

...this intermediary concept does not occur in the other two Abrahamic religions (Judaism and Islam)...nor in Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

It is, by OUR cultural standards, a unique concept of Christianity (and raised to an art form of intermediaries by sectarian parts of Christianity: Roman Catholicism through the many saints, etc.).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/2014 06:51PM by tevai.

You have already answered the question perfectly.

The church's role is the same as any other venture in commerce.

Who makes the most money in every deal? The middleman. He arranges the deal. He controls the information and profits from it, although he does the least amount of work. And, he will do anything to keep you from having direct access to the creator, who in this case may or may not exist.

I've mentioned this to my TBM wife, but she just brought up that justice and mercy church video. It just makes sense to her since that's what she's been taught her whole life. She can't comprehend that maybe God isn't so vengeful...that maybe he didn't flood the earth...that maybe he didn't rain down fire and brimstone...that maybe those less obedient in her eyes won't be cast out. He HAS to take it out on SOMEONE...and isn't if WONDERFUL that He should DIE for me?! No...it isn't wonderful...it actually sounds kind of stupid...

Because the Christian god isn't a loving father. He's an abusive jerk.

God doesn't, but since the SCC thinks it is God, well, just throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you treated your kids the way God treated humans, you would be in jail for life.

God isn't a loving father.

Actually, he isn't even a father because he doesn't even exist.

As a Christian I have always prayed directly to God. The time we need a mediator is when we get judged - with Christ as our advocate (defense attorney).

Just how "loving" is someone who judges you?

Look, I've never lost a criminal jury trial and with JS as my defense attorney, I'm not worried. I've made mistakes but God is merciful, especially with JC's help. Without Christ being in the flesh I don't think HF really understood man. Nor do I buy the Calvinist doctrine of total depravity of man (with a few clear exceptions for some really evil people).

Christ as our advocate, our defense attorney?! What?! To remonstrate with God on our behalf?!

You've got a defense attorney because someone's got to present the defendant's side to the fact-finder, the jury. The jury knows nothing about the case or the parties going in, neither does the judge. That's the whole point of have an unbiased judge and having juries who don't have a priori knowledge of the case, they can be impartial because they don't know anything before they are presented with the evidence; and the evidence has been vetted for accuracy before it's presented.

Both sides, the prosecution and the defense, present their evidence and argument to the blank slate: the jury. Each side makes their best argument and presents their best evidence. The jury gets the benefit of hearing both sides presented to their greatest advantage, and then makes a decision about what happened.

How does this work with an omnipotent being? What in the world would the defense say about the facts that the judge doesn't already know? And if the judge already knows, absolutely, what the facts are, and presumably, knows the law, what would defense counsel actually say? Just remind the judge what the law is? Plead for mercy on behalf of the accused?

The trial advocacy analogy has some pretty substantial flaws when the judge is an omnipotent being. It's nonsense.

You think juries are unbiased? Or judges? We all have prior feelings and prior knowledge. I remember well the case of one judge who appeared before the Judiciary Committee and who I told the governor was going to be rejected. I listened to eight hours of testimony and changed my mind based on the additional information I heard. Was I biased against the judge? Yes. But I listened, not to weigh politics, but to better understand the full nature of the judge. Similarly, when we are judged, HF may be inclined to give us a swift kick down to hell but will listen to "the rest of the story". We will not be held liable for what we have been forgiven. The result is not justice but much more with mercy.

Of course I don't think judges or juries are unbiased. I just know how the system's designed; and so do you, apparently. Therefore, I can't see how you would imagine Jesus as a defense attorney before God. What does that even mean? Especially, "with Jesus as my defense attorney, I'm not worried!" Why should anyone be worried if not you? Why isn't this trial a foregone conclusion? Oh, I see, because God doesn't really "get" man. Then in what sense is he God? The Mormon God is a limited guy, like a Greek God. So then another limited god, Jesus is stuck in there to remonstrate, kind of like the counsel on Olympus. It's fun to suppose these fairy tales, but why think what you make up is really true?

So because you, personally, were biased against a judicial candidate, and changed your mind after eight hours of testimony, somehow that's analogous to HF deciding whether someone gets booted down to Hell? HF's no better than you are at reviewing candidates; and the fact he's God doesn't alter the equation at all? HF is just an extrapolation of you, but somehow Jesus has got access to the "rest of the story;" which has gone unnoticed by God, despite all of your prayers to Him throughout your life. Why pray? What's the point, HF's not paying any attention--as if omnipotence and "attention" even make sense as combined concepts.

Agree rhgc. Most Christians pray directly to God - the personal relationship with JC that Mormons don't have. No person needs to involve anyone else.

Agreed!
Not only that, but why do some people believe God needs/wants to be worshiped?

I agree. God does not need to be worshiped. Nevertheless we who are appreciative will worship. The worship ought not to be to seek gain, but only a matter of appreciation. Grace is not merited nor is it earned. It is not by works nor be worship. If one worships in order to build up some kind of credits it is as bad or worse than the doctrine of works in moism.

Grace isn't by works or worship. That's convenient. The only requirement to Grace then is entitled self-assurance: I'm right by God, so God's right by me!

A common anthropological phenomenon in religions is the creation of various intermediaries between God and mankind. Tevai, you're right about Catholicism and the elevation of various saints and the Virgin Mary as intercessors. And as a religion gets corrupted, ritual and legalism are added requirements, becoming more onerous and mandatory to access the divine. Judaism is corrupted by various types of phariseeism, with more strenuously defined laws to be kept. And Islam has its "Five Pillars" that must be accomplished during a MAN's lifetime.

I submit for your consideration that Protestant Christianity eliminates the middleman. It was founded on the premise that people could, and should, read their Scriptures for themselves, alms are voluntary, and people can relate to God individually, through the juncture of personal faith and Divine Grace. This doctrine is termed "the priesthood of all believers," and includes everybody, regardless of gender, social class, ethnicity, or past sins.

"And they sang a new song, saying, '...For you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.” (Rev. 5.9,10)

"Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4.16 ESV)

Mormon Elohim is a Zeus rip-off. His half blood offspring are always saving the day.

When you assume there is no god, everything makes sense.

God needs an intermediary because he has a face that kills people. It's right there in scripture.

Great post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Back in my nonmo religious days, I did learn that God does not want you to "use" him as your crutch to live your life and to be a good person ONLY because of that crutch. God wants you to LEARN through His many works (belief in those works are up to you).

"USING" God as your constant barometer as to how to live your life, parent, be a spouse/partner, is NOT what God wants..

Considering TSCC's attitude that Adam was right to go along with Eve into sin, it surprises me that Jesus has any place in their worship whatsoever.

Adam's sin sold all his offspring into death.

People have to accept Jesus as their adoptive father and reject Adam in order to get life.

Adam's sin was perfectly covered (propitiation) by Jesus sacrifice of his perfect life for us.

Like politics: Government is the intermediary, Church is the intermediary, Men tell us they are the intermediaries.

It is more natural, healthy peaceful and proper, and there are no mix-ups, when creature goes directly to creator and asks questions, gives thanks and walks in honor. When man gets between you and God ...... well, those days are over.

He is too pure to deal with us slugs directly...but what if he was just a slug like one of us?