You know how sometimes you can be annoyed by something inconsequential and just plain silly? Well, that is how I feel about Ex Mormons who refer to the Stone in the Hat translation method as though that is what really happened. They use this argument against the oft told and illustrated Plates and Curtain method.

Just because someone saw JS with his face in a hat doesn't mean he did that when no one was around. No matter how you think the BoM came to be, the one thing that most of us agree about is that the BOM was not translated. So perpetuating the second translation lie isn't any better than perpetuating the first translation lie.

We need to stop talking about the Stone in the Hat. It's silly. We all got a chuckle out of it on Southpark, but I think we should let it go.

End of rant. Sorry about that, but it's too darn hot today and I'm a bit cranky!

Maybe you do not understand the point of the Stone in the Hat translation method.

Sure we all know that nothing was translated. Thats a given.

The point of pointing out the Stone in a Hat is the lies...

The church constantly shows JS sitting studying gold plates 'translating' them. Every picture ever drawn, painted or published by the church shows that lie. Every first hand account of the translation process is the stone in the hat.

That is the point I always make to my wife. The 'one true church on the face of this earth' lies...constantly.

We know neither version is true, but at least tell the story that the people that were there told. Not the whitewashed version.

Great answer!

If we know that neither version is true, and we still promote one version over the other, then we are also liars. No?

I seriously doubt that anyone posting in this thread has ever presented the rock in the hat story to a Mormon while keeping a straight face...

If it was promoted as the truth, then yes.

I cannot speak for others, but when I am using the story it is more of pointing out the church whitewashing thier own story. Not promoting one being true and the other being the lie.

If I believed in the rock in a hat method, that would mean that the BoM was actually translated. Which, of course, it wasn't.

Very true.

"Just because someone saw JS with his face in a hat doesn't mean he did that when no one was around."

no sh!t, Sherlock

you're right about another thing: it IS silly

which is why it's worth talking about - most Mormons have no idea about the rock in the hat story so keeping it going is good in that it exposes how TSCC keeps two sets of (history) books

He had his head in his hat to help him concentrate while writing the fiction call the book of Mormon.

The stone in the hat is damning because it was the same stone used by Joe in pretending to locate buried treasure. That fraud was what brought him into trial in 1826.

The fact that he used a stone in a hat to fraud people out of their money, then used the same stone in his hat to "translate" the Book of Mormon is a fact that many Mormons do not know about. More people need to be made aware because the facts cast serious doubts on Joseph Smith's ability to "translate".

Yeah. This is why it's important. The stone in the hat is scrying which is the same as a gypsy and a crystal ball. That's what Joseph did, and that should give even the most TBM of mormons a little pause. And, if that's the way Mormon god works, time to find another God. I am currently worshipping Bacchus, myself.

The face in the hat is too funny to let go. Request denied.

You may want to look for a new pet peeve. It shouldn't take you to long to find one that actually works.

Some may think a Urim and Thummim gives legitimacy to a translation.

Most will not think the rock in the hat gives legitimacy, especially considering it was his M.O. for buried treasure, etc.

So, focusing on the rock/hat doesn't mean that's how he translated. It means he was a crook.

JS translated the BoM using the Head Up His Butt Method.

Yeah, I'm a bit cranky today too.

Saying "rock in a hat" is code for con props.

Same with that stupid curtain he used. Another prop.

Maybe he had crib notes in his hat.

Referring to his props in no way means he was actually translating anything, but I can kind of see your point. Believers could hear it thinking the rock, hat and curtain were legit for the translation (pretty gullible, right?).

The use of black magic to try and find buried treasure and then 'inspired scripture' is pure, unadulterated Bullshit.

That is why so many of us bring it up.

I mentioned it in passing to my mom. She flipped out and demanded to know where I had heard such ludicrous lies. I told her it's in an ensign article. Her mood totally changed and she said "Oh alright then." Gave me a rather jarring look at mormon thought processes.

Thank you Susan I/S What a great compilation.

You will have to help me remember that one. That is what so many don't understand. They were all cons/grifters. Nasty Ole' Joe just was following in his parents footsteps. People say "How could he make it up" - well, because he had years of practice!

This just illustrates that it was "just the family business."

Some people have a general store, some made furniture, and some were scryers. Joseph Smith and Sons. Glasslookers since 1772.

I understand all of your arguments. I've heard them before, but I still don't see how embracing one lie is any better than embracing another.

If you point out to a believer that TSCC lied about the translation method and you tell about the Stone in the Hat and leave it at that, you have reinforced that the BOM was translated.

If you present the story as an alternative lie and an example of JS not being able to keep his story straight, the story serves a better purpose.

The way the subject is often handled is like telling your kid that the stork brought his little brother and then having your wife tell him that daddy was telling a fib, because little brother came from the pumpkin patch.

releve Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If you point out to a believer that TSCC lied
> about the translation method and you tell about
> the Stone in the Hat and leave it at that, you
> have reinforced that the BOM was translated.

Then don't leave it at that.

My point exactly. Tell the story, have a good laugh and then point out that the Stone in the Hat was a parlor trick.

Hot, cranky and sarcastic! You need a cold one!

That wasn't sarcasm, it was an apt analogy.

I see no reason to think that he looked at a stone in a hat with or without people around isn't plausible.

He looked at the seer stones when he was searching for gold or whatever it was on people's farms. Why wouldn't he look at the stone again.

I think the purpose of the stone was two-fold. To give something for the saps to believe in and to give something (and a process) for JS, Jr. to focus on and go through as he crafted his story.

Peep Stones
(Peep Stones )
See DEVIL, REVELATION, URIM AND THUMMIM.
In imitation of the true order of heaven whereby seers receive revelations from God through a Urim
and Thummim, the devil gives his own revelations to some of his followers through peep stones or crystal
balls. An instance of this copying of the true order occurred in the early days of this dispensation. Hiram
Page had such a stone and was professing to have revelations for the upbuilding of Zion and the governing
of the Church. Oliver Cowdery and some others were wrongly influenced thereby in consequence of
which Oliver was commanded by revelation: "Thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and
thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that stone are not of me, and that
Satan deceiveth him." (D. & C. 28:11.)

Mormon Doctrine. P401

BRM

It is called scrying. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrying

Thank you! That wiki link is priceless. I just feel a little bit bad for JS that he didn't know that he could get the same affect by wearing a turban and staring into a crystal ball. It can't have been comfortable bending into that hat, smelling his own stale coffee breath.

It may actually hint at a possible origin for his delusions.
Ever hear the phrase "mad as a hatter"? Hatters went mad, so I hear, from the mercury used in the process of hat making.
And there's Joe with his face buried in one daily.

I have no source for the mad hatters using mercury. I read it here a long time ago and it sounds to me like one of many things that contributed to making mormonism what it is today. True? Not true? Not sure.

Joe was huffing mercury. that explains a lot.

Doesn't explain modern mormons though. I'm not sure much of anything does.

I think it's useful. Sure, we can simply just say everything was made up, but that doesn't cause anyone else's shelf to collapse.

TBM buy everything, hook, line and sinker. It's a house of cards and all has to remain magic in order to remain viable in their minds. Take some things away here and there, and eventually the whole thing comes crashing down.

Face in the hat=reality that Mormonism is all about the lies that have come down thru the decades.

Could never see how js could breath in that hat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2014 12:26AM by dirtbikr.