I suggest we don't do it unless the parent is present and shows they like it.

On a trip recently, DH and I stopped for lunch. A family came in who were all wearing what appeared to be wedding attire. Two little girls had on beautiful flower girl type dresses with fancy shoes and hair ribbons. I thought they were darling because I like kids and could sense their pride in being special that day. I was in the restroom when their grandma brought them in. I smiled at her and complimented her and the little girls on looking so spiffed up. They all beamed and the grandma reminded them to tell the lady thank you.

I think they would have been disappointed if no one had noticed them and I stepped up in hopes of satisfying their expectations.

I don't usually see boys in the bathroom unless they're tiny but if I was in line with a young guy aged 6 to 10 or so and he was wearing a special suit and seemed proud of it, I would have told the family I appreciated it. Nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

Saying you like how someone looks doesn't mean you don't think they are smart or capable in many other ways. But if you're only going to see them for a minute or two, there's no way to know about their other qualities.

I am sad that men tend to be considered suspect because they are males. If it's a public place with parents around and the men seem respectable, I don't think they should be seen as perverts or predatory simply because of their gender. Women sometime prey on children as do men but most adults are kind and decent.

What about strangers? Here's what I used to tell my little students. Walk away if your parent or teacher aren't with you and strangers are trying to get you to talk to them, take gifts, or go in a car with them. Ask another grownup for help if you're scared. You can go to store clerks, policemen, or any grownup who is not pursuing you.

Explain to children what it means to be a stranger. It means everyone you haven't met. Most of them are good but a few might be bad and those who are pushy or overly friendly or ask for help might be trying to get away with something that isn't nice. It's okay to turn away, walk away from, ignore, or say no to anyone you don't want to talk to.

If adults smile at a child, they need to back off if the child shies away from them. Don't ask them dumb questions like if the cat got their tongue and don't make a deal about shyness. Kids don't have to answer if they don't feel like it.

Bleeding heard liberal, here.

I think it's important part of socialization for children to learn it's important to look nice in public.

I think we are so pc in this society now that we think it's somehow creeper behavior for a grown man in an elevator to tell a little girl she looks pretty. I think that's outrageous.

If she looks pretty, she looks pretty. Tell her so.

This topic really doesn't deserve the discussion it's gotten on this board because being courteous and pleasant to other people (children included) in public is a no brainer as far as I'm concerned.

I also think it's ok for a man to open a door for a woman--regardless of whether or not her arms are full of packages.

I appreciate what you say about males being suspect. I picked up on that early in life and I have avoided children like the plague ever since.

Of course many of my nieces and nephews were told to avoid me and always looked at me like I had two heads. Thank you Mormon church for wrecking my family.

I do only compliment a child to their parents, never directly. This is excellent advice, Cheryl. It's a shame it has to be that way, but in our society it just is.

As someone who was sexually abused as a child, being noticed by a stranger for my appearance was stress producing. There were adults that I knew were not right even if the other adults didnt realize it. I never knew what an adults motivations might be.

I would comment if the child is clearly enthusiastic about their appearance, but otherwise would not say anything.

Yep.

I talk to little kids all the time if we're all standing at the check out. I talk to grownups too. Usually the parents are there and of course I look at the parents and acknowledge them. I usually ask things like if they're excited to go back to school, what grade they're in, or if they're excited to be out for summer, etc. I've even asked how old they are, what grade they're in, or what games/toys they like to play when shopping and I'm not sure what to get as a gift or if they like a particular shirt/outfit/earrings. I also think it's unfortunate that men are seen as predatory if they talk to children. I think it's important to acknowledge the parents in some way. I don't think it's wrong to say a girl is pretty either. Who doesn't like to be told they're pretty? It doesn't set them up to be airheads, it's a complement. It's unfortunate everyone has to be so fearful - adults fear talking to children because that means they're creepy predators and children afraid to talk to adults because they're creepy predators. If you recognize social cues, you know when to back off.

Multi generational interaction in public places offers important socialization opportunities. Too bad political correctness has run amuck.

As for Mormon kids, they're sometimes taught to listen to and mind any adult who claims to be Mormon. Nope, that's very bad advice.

omreven Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I talk to little kids all the time if we're all
> standing at the check out. I talk to grownups
> too. Usually the parents are there and of course
> I look at the parents and acknowledge them. I
> usually ask things like if they're excited to go
> back to school, what grade they're in, or if
> they're excited to be out for summer, etc. I've
> even asked how old they are, what grade they're
> in, or what games/toys they like to play when
> shopping and I'm not sure what to get as a gift or
> if they like a particular shirt/outfit/earrings.
> I also think it's unfortunate that men are seen as
> predatory if they talk to children. I think it's
> important to acknowledge the parents in some way.
> I don't think it's wrong to say a girl is pretty
> either. Who doesn't like to be told they're
> pretty? It doesn't set them up to be airheads,
> it's a complement. It's unfortunate everyone has
> to be so fearful - adults fear talking to children
> because that means they're creepy predators and
> children afraid to talk to adults because they're
> creepy predators. If you recognize social cues,
> you know when to back off.


a child who has been physically, emotionally or sexually abused does not want to singled out. Being told one is pretty is a threat, because the adult wants that prettiness.
This has nothing to do with being politically correct, but with the burden that many children have due to abuse.

If a child initiates an exchange, fine. My niece is an extrovert and will talk to anyone, but I keep my interaction with children to a "hi" if they wave.

SOME children who have been physically, emotionally or sexually abused don't want to be singled out. That depends on many factors.

Some children who have never been abused don't want to be singled out.

There are many, many, many children who have never been abused.

Some children engage in conversation and some don't.

This is where social cues come in. If they don't want to talk they don't. If they are afraid of strangers, they won't talk. Some are shy. Some parents engage in conversation and some look at you like you sprouted an extra head. Conversation ends.

I doubt asking a child if they're excited school is out will send them off the deep end, nor do I suspect asking which shirt they like better or what video games are popular among his peers will bring back trauma experiences. It's just small talk and should not be feared.

omreven Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some children engage in conversation and some
> don't.
>
> This is where social cues come in. If they don't
> want to talk they don't. If they are afraid of
> strangers, they won't talk. Some are shy. Some
> parents engage in conversation and some look at
> you like you sprouted an extra head. Conversation
> ends.
>
> I doubt asking a child if they're excited school
> is out will send them off the deep end, nor do I
> suspect asking which shirt they like better or
> what video games are popular among his peers will
> bring back trauma experiences. It's just small
> talk and should not be feared.

Previously you stated that there is nothing wrong with telling a girl she was pretty, how would you know from her social cues is this would cause anxiety?

Do you initiate conversations because they benefit you or the child?

If they don't make eye contact and turn away, then don't talk to them. If they wrap mom's skirt around their face or face the wall or finger the merchandise to avoid your glance, take the hint and go on about your business.

A few years ago DH and I took our grandsons to a little amusement park called Fairyland with interactive nursery rhyme and fairytale activities. The boys were so excited, especially the younger one and they were impatient that there was zero parking available. So my husband dropped us off at the entrance and said he'd catch up when he found parking outside the park and hiked back.

We were having a great time but DH didn't show up to meet us. Finally, I brought the boys all the way back to the admission gate where he was being treated like a criminal. Turns out they have a rule about men going to the park unless children are with them. The boys and I vouched for him but the whole episode drew a cloud over our good time.

Grandpa had the money for lunch and our transportation home. We would have been stranded if they'd hauled him off somewhere for interrogation or if I hadn't gone looking for him at that moment.

I didn't like that they didn't post that rule and that it applied only to men. It seemed to me they should have put out the word using their PA system for everyone to look for three people of our description and that they should not automatically assume a grandpa is an evil predator just because he's temporarily separated from his wife and little boys.

I still feel bad thinking about it and my sympathies are with nice guys like Blueorchid who deserve better.

Our society is tilted, absolutely.

The same internet which delivered us from Mormonism brings us knowledge of widespread child abuse/kidnappings all over the world. It's never been settled whether the reporting has improved or the amount of abuse has escalated. I suppose we'll never know.

It has changed the way we interact in public with strangers. I have become aware that when I speak to a child in public, other than when necessary for safety, I may be helping to break down barriers that keep that child safe. Their parents may have told them never to talk to strangers and there may be circumstances I don't know about, like the abuse mentioned above.

So I limit my interaction to smiling and waving. Or I speak to the parents first if they are present, giving the child a compliment through the parent. If they respond positively, body language and otherwise, then I go ahead and say something directly to the child.

It's no use yearning for the openness of the past (which seemed safer due to lack of information). The streets are empty of children playing. When was the last time you stopped your car to have a baseball game step aside? You can drive for miles in suburbia now and never see a single child outside, not even with a parent or nanny.

There are many elderly people who haven't had an interaction with a child in years. If I were raising children today, I would teach them to always speak to a grandma or grandpa in public because it makes them so happy.

My grandson and I were waiting for him to be picked up from his sleepover with me. One of the other residents came in from trying to see the moon. He greeted her and added, "So nice to see you!" (His mother must have taught him that - he's seven) My neighbor was overjoyed. She said, "You ARE? Oh, that is the sweetest thing...etc, etc."


Kathleen Waters

I wouldn't object to commenting on people's outward appearance if the comments were also balanced with comments about abilities.

Because what if there's another kid around who isn't so well-dressed due to poverty (or whatever other issues) or who isn't very attractive (for whatever reasons) -- how do you think that makes that kid feel, overhearing what the standard is to get compliments from strangers? Some people will never be able to attain the status of "attractive" for a number of different reasons, so that's why I strongly suggest focusing on what people can DO. If it's a total stranger, then ASK the kid.

In my experience, comments to me from strangers as a kid were 100% based on appearance. It's the only thing I think people care about. Upthread, someone asked who doesn't like to be told they're pretty? I don't. It makes me feel like an empty shell of a human, with nothing inside my head. I might as well be wallpaper for all I matter -- because strangers are telling me the only thing that's worth commenting on is aesthetics.

Furthermore, to extend the thought about less-than-attractive kids overhearing your compliments to the pretty kids, let me ask you this. When confronted with an unattractive (to you) child, do you lie and say she is pretty, or do you compliment an ability or other obvious quality? So do that with ALL the kids and quit being part of the overwhelming deluge of comments that are focused solely on the shallow, superficial, fleeting appearances?

Seriously, it's no problem to treat them as individuals and read their needs and body language. Every child knew they'd be getting attention too if that's what they wanted or needed. They weren't hurt if someone had a new outfit and others commented because we had class meetings constantly talking about taking turns and individuality. These kids were poor and getting a new shirt or pair of socks was a big deal to them. They weren't adverse to pointing out something new if others failed to notice and it would have been cruel to pooh-pooh their feelings about their new shoes or jacket.

Again, I say that commenting about how someone looks nice today does not mean they won't also have recognition for holding their pencil right or for helping their friend or turning in a fine homework assignment.

Most kids are not as fragile as some adults think. They're almost always more flexible and open, more honest and accepting than adults. They don't break into a million pieces over one compliment or one misplaced word.

Adults sometimes dwell on their worst childhood experience and resent it until the day they die. Sadly, they might forget better times and they might forget many uncomfortable times that actually helped them grow up to have happier lives. If adults constantly take the responsibility for kids' minor growing opportunities and smooth over or wipe out every uncomfortable moment, they're setting up the kids to feel entitled to never face life's realities.

Well, now the hypothetical has changed from meeting a random stranger kid in public to a roomful of YOUR kids that YOU teach and that YOU know. And of course the feedback is going to be more balanced because you see those kids every day.

And you seem to be completely ignoring my point that about the constant barrage of comments girls get their entire lives that are 95% focused on their looks.

When you are a teacher of children, obviously, you're going to focus on more than their looks. But you HAVE to be aware that, when those children venture out into the world, people who are NOT their teachers are going to compliment the boys on what they can do and they are going to compliment the girls on what they look like or what they are wearing. I'm not claiming that anyone is destroying a child's self-esteem; I'm simply asking that you try, just a little bit, to understand that you are not the only person interacting with children.

Not for decades. That might happen in some cases but I don't think it's the major problem some feminists still think it is.
One comment from a stranger doesn't mean it's an all day everyday problem.

LOL. So, it doesn't happen to YOU; therefore, it doesn't happen. That's hilarious.

Here's an example of what happens after you grow up. See, talking to little girls about how pretty they are just sets them up for catcalling. And often, you are NOT free to avoid the conversation. Sometimes, you're trapped in an elevator or on public transportation. And if you try to be assertive and asked to be left alone, you can be in physical danger.

http://catcalled.tumblr.com/

More:
http://www.ihollaback.org/

I'm well aware that talking to a five year old in the grocery store checkout line is a completely different animal from being catcalled in the street as an adult. However, like I said in the other thread, I think it starts when we are young and small -- we're taught it's rude to not respond. Young girls are socialized to be nice and not say no and to not have boundaries and engage with anyone who wishes to engage with them. Anyway, the reason I post this is because the catcalling and street harassment A) begin really young, pretty much whenever you get boobs, and B) It's all focused on appearance. It's devaluing a human and reducing them to an attractive object to admire.

So I really appreciate the posters who are respecting children's boundaries by speaking to the parents.

I didn't say everyone I suggest is based on what happened to me. Nothing could be further from reality.

It's based on observation of others, looking at media, extensive reading books and news articles, observing in the classroom, taking classes, talking to parents and community, and reading here and other online sources.

Pretending there have been no inroads into this problem since the 1980s is not accurate. We've made massive progress and need to take a breath and let this shake out a bit before plunging on acting like what we experienced as children and continue to recover from is the same as what children experience now.

You asked about unattractive kids. Whenever I see a baby or child who is unattractive, I make a special effort to smile warmly at that child. I figure that kid may not get a lot of positive feedback on his or her appearance, so I try to make up for that.

My experience as a teacher is that all kids, no matter how poor, will have days when they are wearing something new or otherwise have made a special effort with their appearance. It might be a new pair of sneakers, or a new hairbow, hairstyle, hair cut, or what have you. The kids that I teach do like sincere compliments.

I compliment kids (and their parents) when they are behaving well in public... positive reinforcement is a great thing, and it does help brighten the spirits of stressed parents and show kids that their good behavior is something to be proud of.

Clothing is superficial, and as others have said... you never know if that's all a family can afford. But a child behaving well in public? Definitely should be encouraged.

If a child's not behaving well, I'm careful not to say anything (or make faces). I'll play it safe in case it's a kiddo with autism or another disorder that can be invisible to the untrained eye.

The only time I say anything to a small child is if he or she is doing something like holding the door open for others. I always give them and exaggerated thank you because I like to make them feel like being polite is a big deal, because I think it is too. I always get smiles from both the kid and their parents.

A man came by and praised the child by speaking to the mom about how safety is so important. Nice mom, nice man. Cute little kid learning to be safe.

The bottom line is that many people here have said that they did not like compliments from strangers when they were children. From that, it is reasonable to conclude that there are still many children who don't like it, and parents who don't like it, either.

These people have a right to be comfortable in public without having to worry about whether someone is creeping on them or their kids.

Your desire to chat with children in public does not trump their right to have their feelings and boundaries respected. Kind of like the desire of Mormons to proselytize does not trump anyone's right to be left alone.

It's been made clear by the comments on this topic that a good proportion of people do not welcome such comments, so every time you do it, you're risking causing someone distress. Whether you think they're right to feel that way or not is not the point -- they do feel that way. So don't risk it. Just leave people alone and let them go about their business in peace.

Those who are not are free to avoid it. They can easily prevent this by their body language, lack of eye contact and by simply not responding and moving away from anyone trying to talk to them.

It's silly to base all human behavior on how a few feel about it since they can simply hold their own and do as they wish without trying to control everyone else in the public and what they do with others they happen to meet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2014 05:37PM by Cheryl.

The point is that you have no particular right to take the risk that you're going to distress someone, even if it's only "a few" who feel that way (something you have no way of knowing, BTW).

This is one of those situations where people put their own wishes above the needs and rights of others. You WANT to talk to strangers' children. At least some of those children & their parents are uncomfortable with it, yet you insist on getting what you want and trivializing their objections. They have a right to protect their boundaries in any way they see fit, while you do not have a corresponding right to challenge those boundaries.

In short, it does not matter what you want. It matters that you show respect for other people.

Living in a community setting means people need to be sensitive to the needs of others. If you had read my post, you would have seen that is what I am suggesting.

Whereas you are doing the opposite. You are claiming that no one has a right to talk to anyone in public because there might be someone who doesn't want to answer.

If someone doesn't want to talk, they show it in the ways I've stated. If someone misreads them and says something to them, they have a right to turn away and keep walking.

That happened to DH and I yesterday. In a store, a man asked how we were doing and we smiled and said hello. Then he asked us about energy use and costs and we simply did not answer and just walked on because we did not want to buy solar panels or whatever energy saving thing he was selling.

That's how it works. I can't change reality for you.

Simple solution, let the child decide if he or she wants to talk to you, by the child initiating the conversation.

Smile if a child smiles at you, and say hi, if the child does.

Otherwise, why is it so important to interact with a random child?

Let the poor kid alone, for gawds sake. You Not interacting with the child will have no effect on its life. MYOB. Not talking to kids wont kill you.

My mother didnt know I was sexually abused, she didnt know that I knew that a family friend was sexually interested in children, as was a neighbor, and a doctor. And I didnt really know it was about sex at first, just darkness and need. I had to scan my surroundings for new threats and keep track of the known threats. So, a stranger talking to me or commenting about my appearance would have meant that I was on high alert, even if my mother was there.

I am asking for flexibility.

Yesterday, someone in an elevator said a sentence to a child and mother. People accused him of being hurtful and insensitive. I think it's they who overreacted.

Children are not harmed by one stranger saying a well intentioned sentence to them in a public space with their mother holding their hand and not objecting in any way. Anyone who thinks this does permanent damage to a child is mistaken. Children are more resilient than that. They are not made of spun glass and although I try to make their lives pleasant, I think they can survive an occasional sentence in this situation. They will go on to live good lives and most will have a happier day from the interaction.

When I lived in San Francisco people kept to themselves downtown but in my district people knew each other and would interact a lot more. When I lived in So Cal it was common to not even know your neighbors. Now I live in a tiny town that is known for it's chattiness. It would drive many of you wild and it was quite an adjustment. We talk in line, we talk in the aisles, we talk in the square, we talk at the farmers market, we talk at the wineries. You name it, people talk there :) Almost all kids are well behaved here but people will comment in restaurants when little kids are being very good. If a child is preening be it in a new dress or a new Minecraft shirt people will comment. Chances are the adults are already chatting lol. If a senior is standing at a corner all traffic will stop for them. Same for opening doors for them and everyone else. Who ever is in front will hold the door for all. It's just the way THIS town is.

But several years ago we did have a scare. My husband was mowing the grass and intent on what he was doing and not paying attention to anything else. I looked out the side window and saw a 100% naked little girl a few feet behind him. I could see a large scrape down her side and her long hair was tangled. I ran out of the house and just about then DH turned and saw her and turned off the mower. She was very young and little, 3-4. The whole side of her body was scraped and bleeding, she was dirty and obviously afraid. We back up to green space and all I could think is some how she had been out there because I know all the kids in the neighborhood. I told DH to run get a towel, tshirt - ANYTHING to cover her as I tried to get her to talk but all she kept saying was hungry. I told her I would get her some food and to come with me - I was afraid she might bolt. Just then a neighbor two doors down came running into our backyard and said the girl had climbed over her fence (hence the scrape) and that she was a child of someone visiting them. Thank goodness! My next step would have been to call the police. DH was really shaken up because his first thought was that the police would blame him for something, a man alone with a naked hurt little girl. Unfortunately that is the world we live in.

When we lived in So Cal I had another experience with children I didn't know. I had a boy (7-8) come to my door and tell me he was afraid and the other kids were bullying him and he didn't know what to do. There was a group of kids standing out in the street behind him. I did not know this boy but he knew me. He had seen me out front with my dog when he walked home and he knew I would be there and thought of me as the nice lady with the pretty dog. So I went out and told the others to move along, asked him if he wanted me to call his Mom for him (we didn't have a cell then and I didn't think it would be right to take him in the house) and I got him something cold to drink and waited with him.

So, I guess the point of my very long post is that it depends on the situation.

Thanks for your very refreshing and sensible post.