I am considering a move to Utah due to my wife's family living there. I'm a nevermo and she's a ex/confused/faith crisis maybe mo? Lets just say she doesn't like religion at the moment, but if she had to select her religion on an application she would probably check the mo box.

Anyway, we've had sort of a rocky 18 months of marriage since we had twin daughters. Obviously religion has been an issue. She's really put the full court press on to move to Utah to be closer to her family; and going with the theme 'Happy wife, happy life' i'm actually starting to seriously consider it (we currently live in Seattle).

I had a conversation today with a co-worker who told me that the divorce laws in Utah are heavily favored towards the wife, especially if she is Mormon. Is that true? In the event that we divorce (which I'm very hopeful won't happen), would I be up a creek if we were residents of Utah? Would my custody and general legal rights be a lot less than the mother?

Look forward to any thoughts on this. I may just be paranoid here, but I want to make sure I've really thought this true before making the move.

Stay in Seattle. You all are better off and this too shall pass.

(Why would anyone in their right mind move from Seattle to Utah?)

Twins ..wow! It's a big load, especially if you both work on top of it.
She is feeling the crunch and misses her family.
Good, bad, indifferent, it's normal for a new mom to miss her family.

My advice is to stay where you are. Seattle is a much better more rounded place to live. I don't think the job market is that great in UT.

The parents can visit and you can visit them.

I'm a strong believer in keeping family at a distance and establishing your own family without outsiders interfering. If her family is TBM you'll be bombarded if you live close by!

Like how long??? Once they hit 3, they get easier as they play together and they can communicate. I have twins who are 28 years old now. I about lost my mind those first few years. After that, they were a joy to raise as they always had a friend. You didn't have to send them off to school alone, etc.

Utah's job market isn't bad. We have a lower unemployment rate than most states. There are a lot of IT jobs I guess especially in Utah County. My nonmo boyfriend looked everywhere and ended up with an IT job here in Logan, Utah. Cost of living is A LOT less in Utah than in Seattle, but they pay less, too.

I see the biggest problem being the indoctrination. If her family is extremely Mormon, then she very well might decide she wants a Mormon life. Does she work? It saved my sanity to go back to work part-time.

As for divorce laws, from what others have told me and my family's experience, they don't favor women. My sister got very little in child support when she divorced. No spousal support. My brother got joint custody and paid no child support.

My boyfriend divorced in Colorado and paid spousal support for 7 years at a high rate--and the kids were already raised.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 01:36PM by cl2.

I know a family living in Logan, UT that visits their children and grandchildren in Seattle quite often without it being a hardship. They are ex-Mormon and the children are active Mormons. They find it very difficult to stay for any length of time due to the religious conformity of their children.

Don't move to Utah. It will have a very strong hold on your wife and could really mess up your relationship. Encourage wife's parents to visit but set a date that they will leave as well.

Try helping your wife find some female friends and maybe some older women to help her adjust to the new stresses. My sister joined the Laleiche League (spelling?). They help new mothers learn how to breast feed and are very supportive. Your wife just needs a healthy support system rather than UTAH.

Having lived in Utah and left there for the seattle area when we were newly married please make sure you stay there.

I would not worry about the divorce laws between the 2 states. Anyone I know who has been divorced in any state will tell you they are biased towards the wife if there are children involved. My sister-in-law worked as an attorney for the state (child advocate) and it frustrated her that sometimes the better choice for the children was the father but judges would lean towards the mother because of their biases.

Your wife is probably having trouble because she is missing her support structure. That was our problem in leaving the utah area because if anything happened we only had ourselves to fall back on. Living without a safety net leaves you with an insecure feeling and she will be feeling very insecure with young children.

The most important thing you can do is stay steady, show her you guys are secure without the safety net. If you can maintain away from the family you will both become much more independent and be better for it.

My biggest consideration that helped keep us out of utah was that I had a job in washington and any move to Utah would mean great insecurity and question on when I could get employed there and at what cost. We have now moved several times since and I am proud to say that out of the 6 kids in my family I am the only one to live out of utah county.

Divorce judges in Utah HEAVILY favor towards the mother, especially if she's a believer and you're not.

I said HEAVILY!

Take it from somebody who was divorced in Utah.

Family law judges in Seattle should be less gender biased when it comes to equitable settlement of assets, finances, and the children.



And also, if your marriage is currently on shaky ground, moving to Utah will not help matters. Closer to Mormons? Closer to family? If anything, it will make matters worse.

Again, take it from somebody that moved closer to her family in hopes of improving the relationship. It did quite the opposite.



Are you guys seeing a good marriage therapist? In Seattle? Have you thought about it? Might be your best bet at repairing what's broken.

Yeah, I didn't give the full back story on the original post because I wanted to keep the conversation focused on the divorce laws...but, basically, my wife converted to Islam when we got married (which is what I am)...after the kids were born she changed her mind and said she didn't want to be Muslim anymore (and wanted to be Mormon again)...we've had many fights about that and also went to a therapist who didn't really help.

Our unwritten agreement now is just don't talk about religion at all...when we do that, we seem to do fine.

Also, all my family lives in Seattle. Maybe a better alternative is to pick a neutral location like Portland OR Boise or something like that which is still close to both families, but allows us space to work on us. It's definitely a tough situation.

about the impact Mormonism will play should you move back to Utah.

She doesn't find your family a support system? Do they help out with the kids?

Mormonism has a bigger grasp on people that you can imagine. I'd stay away from Utah.

Definitely my mom will help out with the kids every now and then...but for my wife, it's not the same. while my family is 'family' to her, they're not her family so it's just the same for her.

It's the stresses of having kids, along with the stresses of changing religions (twice), along with being away from her family (they are actually really close, like talk on the phone every day), plus she has a job that she hates that have led to this.

I'm really tired of hearing about moving so I'm just giving in to it. I'm fairly neutral about leaving Seattle because I've been here for 30 years so it would be nice to try something different, though Salt Lake City isn't really on my short list of places I would want to move to. I'd prefer California, Portland or even Boise.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 02:04PM by marriedtoexmo.

I think Utah would not be on my list of places to move, though. Boise is within driving distance.

My sister moved to Twin Falls to be out of Utah even if she is active Mormon. She doesn't like the Mormons in Twin Falls either. None of her friends are Mormon. She teaches school. All her kids left the church in their teens.

I think you will find that if you move to Utah that your religious differences will be amplified because her family will pressure her all the more to return to Mormonism.

Yeah, generally, they are pretty cool about it. She told them (and me) that she would like to be left alone about religion and generally they respect that. We still get our monthly Ensign so there is still that constant, passive pecking that Mormons are good at, but other than that, not a lot of overt pressure.

With that additional bit of information, I'd say this: You are almost guaranteed to be body slammed by a utah family law judge, if you are muslim, and your wife is mormon. Even if she's only leaning mormon. Redneck runs deep in utah, especially outside of salt lake city and park city. You will not be looked at favorably by the court.

If needed, and if you have the financial wherewithal to move, sure, move to neutral part of the country - extended family speaking. Especially if your extended family tends to be meddlesome.

I have to agree with this. Forget whether judges favor the woman or man, they would favor the Mormon woman over the Muslim man.

The trouble really isn't that judges are gender-biased, it's that the families that come before them for decision are gender-biased. The judge's role is to look out for the best interests of the children. For years, the best interest of the children has been interpreted to mean "sustain the status quo ante" as much as possible, and put the children with the parent who's been doing the hands-on caretaking. Therefore, if the man has been working full time and supporting the family financially, and the woman has been nurturing the children and working minimally or not-at-all, the court, after the parties separate, will try to maintain that status-quo in parenting, with the man continuing to be freed up to work full time and support financially by being made non-custodial, and the woman continuing the nurturing, hands-on, caretaking role by being made custodial.

Even if the man says, look my wife's home all day but doesn't do anything, when I get home from work I do homework, cook, clean, do the wash, coach the teams, and my weekends are spent with the kids, unless that can be documented--which it usually can't--it's simply going to be considered self-serving and discounted. The judge will assume each partner is using his or her time in the role-assigned way: nurturer or bread-winner.

However the legislature is putting pressure on judges to equalize time with the children, and the pressure's got more effect on some judges than others. Also, the support laws have become very stingy to SAHMs, to the point that SAHMs cannot usually maintain that status when divorced--thus, levelling the playing field for both parties on the who-works-who-takes-care-of-the-kids continuum.

Aside from divorce law, if your wife and you cannot pull together to find a way to raise these twins, and your wife believes she needs the support of her family and Mormonism, you're going to have problems. And Utah will make it worse. I don't know much about Islam, but I would strongly suggest you find tenets in Islam that will support her as a person, without telling her those tenets are Islam. Mormonism is full of rules and tenets, but most of them are silly. She's looking for something, some harbor in the storm, and if you and your philosophy can't provide it for her, get a different and better philosophy, and help her out.

Sorry to hear you're having troubles. Children REALLY complicate things and expose marital cracks, I can't imagine having two at once. I really think that if you move to Utah she's going to go back to the church and I feel terrible telling you not to move, but you asked for our opinions.
Is she in any mom's group's? I'm in a Facebook (ugh) group with a bunch of women I met on babycenter and it's been incredibly helpful. Since we met when we were pregnant the children are almost all the exact age--if it takes a village to raise a child this is my digital village. My good friend's kid is 4 months older than mine and when I'd ask her about things my kid was doing and going through she couldn't remember if her kid did too, but everyone in the FB group had been through these things recently. I recommend a group for mother's of 18 month old's and especially a group with mother's of multiples.
Best of luck to you and I hope this post makes sense.

^^^ This is the best advice here^^^^

A Mormon woman, especially with small kids, is hugely favored by the courts. Plus, if she joins the cult, they'll ostracize you.
If your marriage isn't strong now, Utah & her family will be the last place you should consider moving to.

Stay in Seattle. Her family can come visit. My mom and I did that when my niece and nephew were young. If you move to Utah there will likely be a lot of pressure coming from her family for her to return to the Mormon church and to raise your children in the church. You do not want that.

If you have the money get some part time household help for your wife. Even a half day or two a week would help lighten her load. Or consider buying the occasional round-trip ticket for her mom to come visit.

Do the math first.

Then consult an attorney.

That you even asked about divorce laws sends up a red flag, but.

Consider the cost of childcare assistance vs. having a family network of support.

What do you do and what's the job market like in Utah for that field? (Questions for you; the answers are not our business.)

What is the value of real estate in Utah vs where you live now? Will you lose your butt if you move?

I'd do a cost vs. benefits analysis and then take emotional considerations into account. Maybe hiring a part-time nanny or housekeeper would alleviate enough pressure to keep you where you live. Thing is, you BOTH want to be happy. Happy wife is not a happy life if husband is miserable. She's not the only person in the relationship. What the OP wants matters at least as much.

Thanks really appreciate that. It's good to hear someone who cares about what I want as well :). I guess my thought is that my wife has sacrificed by being in Seattle for the last 10 years or so that we've been dating/married so part of this is also a gesture of good will towards her in getting closer to her family.

I like your approach, though, much more analytical and thorough then just a simple emotional reaction to current events.

Yes, but has she really sacrificed, or hasn't she grown and built a social network where she lives as well? She has friends, right? And has worked (maybe even working right now?) -- so there's a support network, even if it's not family. It's not like you took her to Mozambique and cut her off from civilization. She can travel, planes fly in both directions, there's phones and email and Facebook... she's in touch with her family. They can visit her, too.

Skype is the next best thing to being there... unless you need help with the twins and the housework, in which case, like I said, it might actually be less expensive to just hire help than it would be to sell your house, uproot everything, move, get everything settled in anew, and that's still no guarantee family will step in to be automatic free daycare/household help. Or that you will be able to find a gig that will enable you to support her in the same lifestyle to which she's become accustomed.

Now, it might be a different story if SHE got some terrific job in Utah that could support all of you while you find another one. I know a couple who did that. First, he scored a great gig, so they moved for his job. Then, SHE scored a better gig, so they moved for HER job. He found an even better one there.

But in this case, I'm assuming we're talking about a SAHM because twins, so... do the math. Hire a nanny and send her on vacay to Utah. ;>)

If you are considering getting a Divorce DO NOT MOVE TO UT. One of my good friends recently went through one there and he got the shaft. He'll never recover.

It (recovery) can happen.

I'm sorry you and your wife are facing a rough patch. Twins have to be a handful. Does your wife work outside of the home? I would think that childcare for two under two would be a killer. Think about counseling with a professional non-Mormon counselor. Some LDS would try to sabotage your marriage because she has not been through the temple. Try to work things out without going to Utah and get your wife some help with the kids. Does she have post partum depression? Lots of unanswered questions here. If both people want it you can work things out. Marriage is not all joy and bliss all of the time. My wife and I have been married for almost 46 years and we both of us have thought about divorce more than once, but we love each other and so far we have worked out most of our issues. It is still a work in progress and I'm sure it will be until one of us dies. We often joke about the length of our marriage but then we add the disclaimer that it depends on us making it to the next anniversary.

I would bet she is moving you to Utah so she can divorce you and have the support of her family. If you are in Seattle and she files for divorce, she knows you can keep her and the children in Washington. You have to consider if Utah would be bearable for YOU if/when you two are divorced. Because you will be stuck there if you want to have any reasonable visitation with your kids. I'm sorry, but that just seems very obvious to me. I live in Utah, was born and raised here and am dying to get out but have a 14 year old daughter and can't take her away from her dad.

If you are concerned about religious mormon influence, stay out of Utah, and especially away from TBM inlaws! The religion is all encompassing lifestyle wise, especially there. The inlaws will influence your children and your wife, especially if they are helping a lot and around.

It sounds like your wife is feeling a little adrift, and maybe family sounds more secure, plus I'm sure she envisions lots of help with the kids. If your own family is your faith and lives by you, she may feel ganged up on.

In my experience, once you have a child/ren, that's when you really face reality within yourself about what you really believe and what you want for your children. Don't know if you've had discussions about how you will raise the kids, but, my guess is she doesn't want them raised Islam.

How strongly do you feel about your faith? Maybe you should find something neutral. I feel fairly strongly about not living that close to family on either side - they just seem to put more stressors on the relationship and on parenting. Too many cooks in the kitchen.

Edit: don't know exact laws, but I'm pretty sure that many states have the rule that if you get divorced, the kids stay in that state and/or with parent that has primary custody. So if you moved to Utah, got divorced, and wife got primary custody and wanted to stay in Utah, I'm pretty sure the kids would be stayin there....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 03:32PM by dogeatdog.

The marriage counseling suggestion is a good one. You have the premier relationship counselors there: the Gottman Institute. Call them!

Lol, that's funny, we actually went to a Gottman course. One of the counselors there said that this situation would be a lot easier if one of us had just cheated on the other one :).

So, after the Gottman course, we did end up going to a Gottman certified therapist and he wasn't really able to help us either. It really came down to being accepting of our religious and cultural differences and not forcing either of our beliefs on the kids. They are so young right now that we don't have to worry about that, but the key for us now is just to leave religion out of our relationship until we get to a point where we really have to address it (i.e when the kids are old enough to be taught one or the other).

There are no laws that favor the mom, but many judges are biased that way. If you have an amicable divorce via mediation it won't matter, it's just what you agree to. More rural areas in UT tend to be a lot worse as far as judges have a bias in favor of the mom - if you are in the SLC area they are more progressive and even. There are lawyers who specialize in dad's rights.

Stay away from "fathers' rights" attorneys. They are crackpots and zealots. Far from the objective advisor you want. I am an attorney and I can tell you from much experience that I have never seen one of these attorneys earn their fee. They do you no good because they go into court spouting conspiracies like Don Quixote tilting at windmills. And their philosophies, publications, and even written and oral arguments are usually seeped in misogyny and contempt for women. It's beyond disgusting. Judges do not respond favorably to their brand of vitriol.

And I have never seen mother-bias in Utah courts, either in rural or urban districts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2014 05:03PM by resipsaloquitur.

If it has to happen a Washington divorce would be handled much more fairly than a Utah one.

Please do everything you can to avoid divorce. A divorce will set you both back many years financially and emotionally, and will be devasting for your children.

Also, if you want your wife to stay married to you, and not be married to the church and her family, I would stay out of Utah.

The whole idea of marriage is for the two of you to bond, not for you to become a cog in a wheel of a corporate machine.

I hope you find a good path.

There have been many many stories posted here of kids being picked on by other kids AND adults because they were not mormon. How will you feel when another kid tells yours that they can't come play at your house because you are not mormon? And believe me, people will try to convert them one way or another. They will "love bomb" them and invite them to church activities. Mormons are taught "every member a missionary" and they will go to outrageous lengths. When they get older it goes to "flirt to convert". There have been many stories here about grandparents and other family members going against parent's requests and behind parent's backs to indoctrinate children. They feel it is their right and responsibility. Put your children first and don't put them in the situation.

California is expensive but Oregon is not and it is a lovely place to live. If you don't want to live in a city like Portland there are many wonderful towns in the area. Lots of open land and TONS of vineyards, orchards and nurseries. You have the ocean, mountains, deserts, deep forest, you name it. Job situation is looking up. A job she likes and some help with the kids may fix her problem. Get a webcam and she can talk all she likes. It is not that far to drive and you can get cheap flights.

PUT YOUR KIDS FIRST.

This is an important point - being a non lds kid in utah is not fun for the kid

I agree that you should do everything reasonable to avoid divorce.

If a divorce must happen, try to make it amicable. When my oldest daughter got divorced, her then husband vowed he was going to fight her in court. Then he saw what the bill was going to be and quickly settled in mediation (I think his lawyer also knocked some sense into his head.)

One interesting difference between Washington and Utah is that the former is a community property state while the latter is an equitable distribution state. This can make a huge difference if you own a business, own a house and so forth.

Due to some weird quirks in the law, you can divorced in Utah much faster than Washington if you have children.

Marriages less than five years generally don't involve alimony, however Utah limits alimony to a time equal to the length of the marriage. Washington has no limit. (Texas limits alimony to five, seven or ten years, depending on length of marriage.)

You don't want your daughters raised as treats to be dangled in front of RMs. Her good mobot family will turn your daughters into the Stepford version.

Don't move to neutral territory, My step daughter did this, and she stuck with $600 flights to see us (or us to see her).

If your family is amiable to moving to Portland when issues arise, then I would say, perhaps. Let's be honest, raising kids with family and friends around is the beneficial. If you move to Portland, you lose that benefit.

If you separate and divorce, you are both stuck in an unfamiliar city, with no family, and no long term friendships.

Do you want to raise your kids, with your families help?
If yes, stay in Seattle.

You have residency in Washington.
If you separate, make sure the kids stay overnight with you, 4 or 5 nights a week. If she is not working, she can care for them during the day.

She cannot move and take the kids. I believe that it will take 6 months to get Utah residency, so until she would be in a no man's land.

Now if the issue is that your family is shunning/shaming/etc her because of her retro-conversion, then you need to control your family, or limit your families access to the kids. Show your support for your wife if this is happening. You move to Zion, you will get the same stuff, multiplied by 10x.

Divorce can be fast and easy in Utah, but the laws DO NOT favor women -- in fact, they are heavily punitive towards women. Child support for female custodial parents lags far behind that in other states; Utah lawmakers keep it low and adjust the support tables very rarely in order to discourage women from getting divorced.

Plus, the state makes both parents responsible; if she had a higher income than you, for example than she would end up being responsible for more of the child support.

Utah: a bad place for divorced women with kids.